... No-one's talking about combat effectiveness with regards to Zhengui though. Like, that was something we addressed months ago when we shifted to working more in groups and not haring off on our own all the time - which addressed more issues than just Zhengui's teenage angst.
We're talking entirely about themes and cultivation here. The only combat effectiveness elements were entirely focused on Ling Qi's personal effectiveness and how well her arts are meeting her needs.
Then what do people mean with synergizing our builds?
If not making us more powerful?
Yes, i guess just cultivating faster is not the same as direct combat effectiveness with him, but i would say it is close enough.
Though if we can more effectively cultivate without suddenly having to change our alrady existing themes, great.
Every had a thought come to you in the middle of falling asleep and you think in your delirium, 'wow everyone should hear this.' Well, here we are.
So, there is a cycle that may connect a lot of Ling Qi's current themes. The work-rest cycle. What is a home? A place you return to rest. What is the world? A place you go to work. What is a dream? A time you rest. What is being awake? A time of action, of work. What is winter? A time of rest. What is spring? A time of work.
The work-rest cycle even fits with Zhengui. Destruction comes in a flash of light letting everything rest, then growth comes and the world works again.
Or what about our domain? It clings to our allies accepting hurts, revitalizing them, letting them rest easier. For our enemies to makes them work harder. They must put more effort to leave, to hit us, to overwhelm us, to reconnect with their allies. Everything our enemies do in the mist takes more effort, more work.
I don't know, pretty sure I won't remember writing this when I wake up, but I wanted to get this hairbrained thought out there. Getting us to start thinking of more cycles than just winter spring you know?
No, it isn't what we did with Zeqing, she thought us songs, and we decided to learn from her, at no point did we try change who we are to be more combat effective when fighting with, or for, her.
Then what do people mean with synergizing our builds?
If not making us more powerful?
Yes, i guess just cultivating faster is not the same as direct combat effectiveness with him, but i would say it is close enough.
Though if we can more effectively cultivate without suddenly having to change our alrady existing themes, great.
You're using mutually exclusive definitions of combat effectiveness
Only one person mentioned "synergy", and I'm pretty sure they were just talking about, like, aesthetic juxtaposition? The narrative that can be told across their shared, and disparate, themes. dpara was explicitly take it or leave it on close collaboration, and they're the only one who used the word.
If you forced me at gunpoint to articulate a "synergy" that I support, then I support taking efforts to explore potential thematic synergy between Ling Qi and Zhengui. That doesn't mean committing to making ourselves exactly 50% Fire/Wood Destruction/Growth/Renewal themed or anything silly like that. It means looking at their themes and seeing what complementary narratives they can make together and what accents might look good on us.
Generally, when people have been talking about synergizing builds with Zhengui, it has been about making our arts match, cultivating new elements, and adding concepts to match Zhengui, more often than not because they want to be more powerful.
And that is my issue.
If people were not talking of changing our cultivation, and instead want to learn how to work better as the people we are, then, fine, that kind of synergy is great and i am fully onboard, but that has not usually been the case in my exprience.
Generally, when people have been talking about synergizing builds with Zhengui, it has been about making our arts match, cultivating new elements, and adding concepts to match Zhengui, more often than not because they want to be more powerful.
And that is my issue.
If people were not talking of changing our cultivation, and instead want to learn how to work better as the people we are, then, fine, that kind of synergy is great and i am fully onboard, but that has not usually been the case in my exprience.
It's a bit contradictory to say learning from Zeqing, which changed us and made us stronger, doesn't count as "combat effectiveness", but learning from a different source does count as "combat effectiveness". It's assigning different motives to the same outcome. But you're also assigning the motive of "combat effectiveness" to the outcome of learning from people if it changes us at all, which doesn't seem consistent to me.
But in any case, this conversation hasn't been focused on combat effectiveness at all, so I don't think it's really fair to paint it with that brush? Nobody's pursuing combat effectiveness here. If anything, it popped up as an argument against taking a closer look at shared themes.
If there's a point of confusion, I'm fine with clarifying it, but you seem to be looping back around to this preconception regardless of what response you get. Which I get, quest debate scars run deep. Just please be assured nobody here, to my knowledge, is interesting in wringing Zhengui dry for his delicious combat effectiveness juices.
Edit: close to bedtime, so if I disappear for hours I'm not ignoring any questions, just asleep
It's a bit contradictory to say learning from Zeqing, which changed us and made us stronger, doesn't count as "combat effectiveness", but learning from a different source does count as "combat effectiveness".
Hey everybody this is my first post although i have been following the quest for a long time, and i figured the new system was a good chance for me to get more involved. I thought i would share some of my thoughts on the Zhenghui issue as i think mainly the issue stems from a perceived narrative clash between Ling Qi and Zhenghui, but i don't think this needs to be the case. It seems to me that we are focusing only on the explicitly stated concepts for Zhenghui renewal/destruction but not putting much focus on some of desires Zhenghui and Ling Qi share. Ling Qi during her breakthrough and domain vision has shown a strong desire for a home a place she can return to and belong to even if she is far away from it. While Zhenghui as a Xuan has shown a desire to have a place of his own to nurture and grow, this part of Zhenhui even seems to go beyond just a desire of his as we see during one of his garden scenes that his Qi was present in the surrounding life, he seems to be in a sense developing into a living community on his own.
So what im trying to say is that i see a lot of hesitation towards the idea of Zhenghui going towards the direction of becoming a literal or figurative home but i think this a great direction for him to go in for both him and Ling Qi. Even in combat Ling Qi, being both sneaky and speedy, often has to stratergise very specifically to stay with Zhenghui when he, at least the way i see it is best utilized as a place for Ling Qi to return if she is about to be successfully pinned down by an enemy or needs to relocate to a different battle.
Now im not confident i understand how the new mechanics work for spirits but from our talks with the ice ladies it seems to be a big deal that the bond with spirits and spirit beast through the imperial cultivation methods is able to change the nature of a spirit/beast. As such i definitely think that leaning into home or community as a shared concept for both Ling Qi and Zhenghui seems like a cool idea and the Xiangmen project seems like a very harmonious way to do so as Xiangmen is clearly wood attributed has many potential lessons for what Ling Qi wants to do without focusing on wood itself, and is a literal home/community itself.
Also personally the idea of a Moonlit forest protected by ash and snow sounds like a cool place to live to me 😋
[X] Plan: All in on reflect.
-[X] Lake Hei is Wide ( +2 to Yin, +1 to Darkness )
-[X] It's Depths Without End ( +2 to Yin, +1 to Darkness )
-[X] We are but Ripples ( +2 to Yin, +1 to Darkness, Mirror Basin )
[X] Reflecting on the lessons learned with Ice Ladies -[X] The Laughing Wind: Flight is freedom, defiance of one of the First Laws. Feel the wind on your face,witness all the earth below, and laugh in the midst of the clear blue sky. Advance Sable Grace by 1. Advance Motion and Freedom projects by one. Unlocks Two Projects. (6/3) (1 + 2 (Yin) + 2 (Wind) + 1 (Darkness)) -[X] Soul of Ice: Blizzard and glacier, fine snow and driving sleet. cruel wind and soft snow. Stasis, Inevitability, Endings and Renewal. There is more to ice, more to winter than meets the casual eye. Is your own understanding too narrow? Advances Isolation and Want Projects. Advances Winter's Heart by 1. Begins Trait Quest Chain. (10/5) (1 + 2 (Yin) + 1(Cold) + 2 (Music) + 2 (Expression) + 1 (Argent Domain) + 1 (Greater Argent Vent)) -[X] Grinning: It is the seeking that brings joy, the journey and the acquisition. Delve into the deeper mystery of the Grinning Moon, seek, adventure, explore to integrate its lessons. Advances the Freedom, Motion, and Isolation projects one step on completion. 30 XP to physical cultivation. (7/3) (1 + 3 (Moon) + 2 (Yin) + 2 (Expression))
One thing about the system tutorial and then I want to post some left-field rambling speculations like I normally do:
I believe the Zhengui gardening portion of the tutorial will directly address Ling Qi's lack of understanding him
This first action with Six is a direct cultivation action taken alongside Sixiang. We are also going to have access to Personal Actions and Professional Actions, and I believe the Concert fits the Professional and Zhengui fits the Personal.
In both instances, there will be opportunity to tie-in our cultivation or the remaining locked portions of our systems, but I also think that it makes sense for the Personal and Professional actions to be on display.
Hanyi's concert is easy to imagine having synergies with our cultivation projects this turn
But I think Zhengui's section will likely show off other benefits that can come from the social actions. Unlocking new projects, revealing synergies possible for later turns, and unlocking additional social actions with the character(s) involved are probably some of the most common abilities.
Ling Qi has already described feeling like she was blind and only now able to see in this new paradigm, and I think that applies to her relationship to Zhengui more so than any other character (or anything really) in this story. I expect that whatever happens in this section to be somewhat unexpected for Ling Qi, and in the new system it's a bit of a Mystery for the audience. But I'm sure that I'll be pleasantly surprised by whatever happens in it, because I love Ling Qi and Zhengui interactions <3 <3 <3
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I suspect its more the Incandescent Tyrant Art(Thread 1 Tournament 7), where Renxiang already expressed strong distaste for its ultimate technique being indiscriminate mass destruction. Shenhua is all about acceptable costs and consequences, but Renxiang cares about the human costs.
An art that is fundamentally built around the irresistable march of Progress crushing all in its path is going to be the worst case scenario where she cannot accept its insights, but also has no counterargument and thus cannot develop an inverted insight like Qi has a few times(FSS goes on about how All Things End, but she has a counterargument that an ending makes for a fresh start, and she got a Future Cannot Be Known insight out of an art about divination).
Which would align with one of the few known insights of Shenhua in that she's conceptually incapable of going back on her decisions, even if the consequences are horrific.
Now this lil hypothesis right here is very interesting to me, because in it Renxiang failed to form a contrasting insight to not just any old Art of her mother's but the Tyrant part of her mother's.
Renxiang is a smart and philosophical girl, and there are a hundred and a half arguments which could be made against Tyranny as an Ideal Truth. Yet Renxiang couldn't reach for a single one of them. I'm sure she's heard them before, but apparently she doesn't believe in any of them. At the same time, she doesn't believe in being the Tyrant.
I like to contrast Emperor An and Shenhua often, as they were both Rulers in the Empire that are on the path to Ascension.
Which makes me want to contrast Jiao and Renxiang, due to their proximity and relation to these eventual Great Spirits.
Jiao watched his friend pare away all of his humanity until ultimately fully embracing inhumanity, while Renxiang grew up hearing stories of a lovely human and was instead annihilated and reforged by the inhuman thing that the human had become.
I hope that our upcoming studies of Hidden Moon can include a chat with Auntie Xin. I really like her, and we've had deep cultivation contacts with our other Aunties. I think she'd offer good insights into Power (in relation to those that are impacted by it's passing. You know, Causality) and perhaps give us a fun Mystery to ponder <3
I just want to point out the connections between four Power seeking characters and the Causal effects that Power had on them. Alright, thanks. Carry on <3
If Zhengui is Power, Persistence, and Renewal (and he is, right? Finding the current Spirit keywords is hard) then I think its worthwhile to think what those Concepts mean to him in particular.
1. Persistence: it is basically what you would expect and is okay in moderation but can easily become a bad thing if things Persist past their time.
2. Renewal: this is the end of Persistence and is the burning down of things that have lasted too long to open up room for new things (which are generally more plentiful or otherwise better) to replace them.
3. Power is the result of a cycle but more in terms of a positive feedback loop than a loop. Namely things grow, become stagnant, are destroyed, are replaced with better things, which grow, and so on and so forth.
Taken together this means that Zhengui is about Growth through Renewal. By burning and destroying things, he makes the world more vibrant. I feel that this paradox links extremely closely to LQ's own Community through Freedom, where she makes friends and allows those people to leave, making her more likely to accumulate more friends in the future. The superficial opposition of the concepts is actually a description of how to organically produce more of both.
[x] Plan Dreams of Power
-[x] Echoing Grandeur (7/5)
-[x] Hidden Smile IV (1/1)
-[x] Hidden (8/3)
"So," Ling Qi asked standing before the faintly glowing rings. "What are we doing today that's different from what we've done before?"
"Well, before, when I taught you how to dance, I was teaching you how to skim along the edges," Sixiang replied, leaning an elbow on her shoulder. Their current avatar was a bit taller than her. "You were already good at that, you already knew the trick of moving without moving after all."
Ling Qi nodded shallowly, giving the spirit a gentle nudge to push them off her. Her very first movement art, the Sable crescent step had been a lengthy lesson on the nature of darkness. Darkness wasn't really a physical thing, it was a state, fade into it, and it was easy to simply appear wherever there was a lack of light. Of course, she was still limited by her human mind, she could only move to places that she could perceive, and she couldn't disperse herself completely for very long, it felt a bit like trying to hold her breath for too long as a mortal. "Yes, I've done more though. You've taken me into Dream before."
Sixiang was already shaking their head though. "Nah, I've let you experience my memories, that's not the same. Today, I wanna show you how to enter for real on purpose."
Ling Qi coughed into her hand, averting her eyes at the reminder of the desperate jump that had almost broken her open like a shattered vessel. "Right, how do we get started on that?"
"Well it's easier cause of our set up here, but if you're gonna physically enter, the important thing is getting into the right state of mind<" Sixiang said authoritatively. Ling Qi held back a snort as a small pair of spectacles materialized on their nose as the muse took on a lecturing tone. "You have to sleep while waking."
Ling Qi stared at Sixiang, Sixiang stared back. Ling Qi raised an eyebrow. "Is that it?"
"I mean, can you explain how to breath? I mean beyond a super simple thing like I just did," Sixiang asked.
"No," Ling Qi agreed grudgingly. "Then what good is this?"
"Well it's not like I'm totally useless," Sixiang drawled. "I know for you solid folks, its about state of mind. Even when you're calm your mind is still going on about a bunch of stuff in the background. You're not ever really not worrying about something."
"Are you going to tell me I need to clear my mind?" Ling Qi said, in the driest tone she could manage.
"Nah, that's the opposite really. If anything you need to fill your mind," Sixiang replied cheekily. "Dream is ideas and inspiration and thoughts. It's everything that goes on under the hood so to speak. That's why dreams are usually just weird mishmashes of thoughts and experiences from the waking world. So no, don't clear your mind. Lose your restraint entirely. Let yourself dream. I'll be careful not to let you float away."
Ling Qi frowned as she stepped into the closest ring, feeling the hum of qi on her skin. The view of the grounds of the Outer Sect was hazy like looking outside on a hot summer day. Her eyes drifted over the village at the foot of the Outer Sect mountain, where her family was, then to the faint curl of smoke that marked Zhengui's hill. Her eyes then wandered up, to the cloudy sky, where the immense coils of the Sect Heads Dragon companion still loomed in the sky. She craned her neck, spying the endless mountain peaks going south.
If there was one thing that she had come to learn recently, it was that she was still ignorant of so much still.
...And she really wasn't satisfied with that anymore.
Ling Qi closed her eyes and stopped trying to think. She let her mind wander, a hundred hundred thoughts boiling over one another unrestrained by any attempt at focus. The feeling of the rest of the world faded away as she let herself grow lost in the cauldron of her own mind. The Last thing she heard as as she reached a hand out and pressed it against something like the skin of a soap bubble was a chuckle from her muse.
"Knew you'd get it, Ling Qi."
She felt her stomach lurch and even the touch of ground vanished under her feet. Ling Qi felt a rising alarm as a sense of lightheadedness overtook her, and she felt her skin tingle and her fingers begin to dissolve.
Arms wrapped around her waist, and suddenly her weight snapped back. Ling Qi took in a sharp breath through lungs that no longer felt half liquid.
"Hey, told you I'd stop you floating away," Sixiang said, voice tickling her ear.
Ling Qi shot them a dirty look over her shoulder as she opened her eyes, and peered at their surroundings.
They stood now in a bamboo grove, before a humble shrine. The sound of a burbling spring reached her ears and she turned to look at the clear spring that had taken the place of the overgrown muddy pool which had been there in reality.
"I could have used a little more warning," Ling QI rebuked."
"Really, you already knew the danger of the Dream," Sixiang said, drawing away, wisps of colorful smoke rose from their limbs where their bodies had touched.
"I wasn't thinking of it," ling Qi grunted, raising her eyes to the source of golden light that illuminated the little shrine. The idol floated above here, twice the size that it had been in the physical world. Its expression was still serene, but an eddy of power swirled around it, and the lotus in its lap glowed with a dim unlight.
"That was the point," Sixiang reminded.
Ling Qi grimaced breathing in what felt like heavily qi dense air. "Is it always like that crossing over?"
"Yeah, 's dangerous. You solid people aren't really meant to be here, and you're still pretty attached to your body," Sixiang grinned, clapping her on the shoulder. "It's extra dangerous to go alone. Good thing you got me huh?"
"Ling Qi rolled her eyes, but smiled as she turned away. Sixiang sniffed in mock hurt. "Where are we anyway. This isn't like last time."
"Well yeah," Sixiang agreed. "Last time you jumped right in the deep end. This place is closer, so its more like a…. shadow? Maybe impression? Of your world."
"I see Ling Qi murmured, casting one wary eye at the idol as she approached the shrine, inside was an altar, and an eight sided mirror. It was framed in black jade and shone with the gleam of moonlight on a clear night. Wisps of silver, infant faeries, drifted and flickered, their laughter like the sthe soft ring of wind chimes in her ears as she reached inside and lit a stick of incense.
It didn't matter that she had no fire techniques, the incense lit, because what else would an incense stick do? She clapped her hands twice and bowed her head, to a mirror that shimmered black, then turned away, striding toward the dirt path that wound out of the bamboo grove. A halo of moon fairies followed after her, swirling and dancing around her head.
Sixiang waved her hands, shooing them away as they caught up.
"Jealous of a bunch of kids Sixiang?" Ling Qi asked.
"Pfah, like a bunch of brainless babies can appreciate you," Sixiang huffed. "So what's the plan?"
"I'm not sure yet," Ling Qi admitted. She grasped inside of her storage ring and pulled on the last piece of loot she had acquired. A compass of dark red wood, with a sliver of rainbow hued metal spinning under the glass. She paused and squinted at it, but the sliver of metal didn't stop spinning. "Where do you think we should go?"
"Probably the wrong question," Sixiang said as they resumed walking, their words echoed weirdly here, as if rising from the bottom of a deep pool.
As they spoke the last word, the bamboo grove stopped abruptly at a sheer cliffside, stretching infinitely down into darkness. Beyond it lay a forest, but nothing like she had ever seen before. The trees were immense beyond reckoning. They stood at a level with the lowest branches and yet the trunks stretched out of sight, and the glittering canopy overhead seemed as far away as the night sky. Mist drifted between the trunks as wide around as whole townships, and the breeze sent branches larger than trunks a-swaying.
She looked up and there in a single drop of dew clinging to an immense leaf was a distorted image of the Sect village and beyond that in their own dewdrops where scattered bubbles there the outer sect mountain, there the lowest of the Inner Sect peaks. From further beyond, she felt the distant rumble of thunder and caught a golden glow.
She looked down, into the infinite mist and caught movement, something vast but graceful, passing between the titanic trunks. In the eddies of the mist she saw the shadow of human construction, carved into the dark wood, dozens hundreds, scattered about, stacked atop one another. There lived shadows flickering and quiet, yet no less real than the glittering dew above.
"So, Ling Qi, what do you want to dream?" Sixiang asked quietly.
[] Dream of mountains in dewdrops and the rumbling of old thunder (Dreaming Feats, seeking the present. Sixiang evolves their perception trait)
[] Dream of shadows and cities, stacked like children's blocks (Grinning Feats, seeking the past. Sixiang evolves their movement trait)
Far away, and Long ago, the scratch of a quill comes. The Black Moon is watching. Hidden Moon feats available in all paths.
Hmm so movement makes Six better to materialize, all for it then. [X] Dream of shadows and cities, stacked like children's blocks (Grinning Feats, seeking the past. Sixiang evolves their movement trait)
[X] Dream of shadows and cities, stacked like children's blocks (Grinning Feats, seeking the past. Sixiang evolves their movement trait)
I think that on principle we are already doing dreaming moon things, hidden is triggered for our cultivation choices ao to balance it out I'd go with grinning moon. Also, I wanna see the past.
I think I'm leaning towards.
[X] Dream of shadows and cities, stacked like children's blocks (Grinning Feats, seeking the past. Sixiang evolves their movement trait)
I just find the description a bit more interesting.
[] Dream of mountains in dewdrops and the rumbling of old thunder (Dreaming Feats, seeking the present. Sixiang evolves their perception trait)
I don't tend to think of Sixiang as particularly mobile. Maybe that's a reason to try and change that with other option but between Dreaming feats feeling appropriate and perception seeming more generally useful for Sixiang this is my preference mechanically.
Also preferring exploration of the wilds than the cities. Curious that this is the present and the other the past though. This looking for the renewed threat of the barbarians? Is the other looking at our own past, is there another whose past will be opened to us or would it be a more general look?
Nice to see this Sixiang inspired adventure unfold. Looking forward to see how it pans out.
Hmmm, I'm kinda maybe inclined to go with "past" because we've been really trying to build an understanding of that and its importance recently, and I'd like to continue that. Also cities, because LQ is a city girl and #society maybe?
I don't tend to think of Sixiang as particularly mobile. Maybe that's a reason to try and change that with other option but between Dreaming feats feeling appropriate and perception seeming more generally useful for Sixiang this is my preference mechanically.
It didn't matter that she had no fire techniques, the incense lit, because what else would an incense stick do? She clapped her hands twice and bowed her head, to a mirror that shimmered black, then turned away, striding toward the dirt path that wound out of the bamboo grove. A halo of moon fairies followed after her, swirling and dancing around her head.
Sixiang waved her hands, shooing them away as they caught up.
"Jealous of a bunch of kids Sixiang?" Ling Qi asked.
"Pfah, like a bunch of brainless babies can appreciate you," Sixiang huffed.
"I'm not sure yet," Ling Qi admitted. She grasped inside of her storage ring and pulled on the last piece of loot she had acquired. A compass of dark red wood, with a sliver of rainbow hued metal spinning under the glass. She paused and squinted at it, but the sliver of metal didn't stop spinning. "Where do you think we should go?"
Yay! My write in and only significant contribution to the quest makes it's first appearance!
[X] Dream of shadows and cities, stacked like children's blocks (Grinning Feats, seeking the past. Sixiang evolves their movement trait)
Leaning this right now because that covers all three of our lunar patrons then. Our plan vote has a nice dreaming project in it, and the hidden moon is covered in either option so grinning is the only missing one. It's only fair to represent all three of our patrons when we are starting at the location where they took us on our last moon quest.
Plus the movement may be helping Six materialize, and seeing what I think are ancient cities has been razed and rebuilt on top of each other like has happened many times in real life history sounds really interesting. Might see some Mason war stuff, other emerald sea civil war stuff, Ogedai stuff, who knows!
Leaning this right now because that covers all three of our lunar patrons then. Our plan vote has a nice dreaming project in it, and the hidden moon is covered in either option so grinning is the only missing one. It's only fair to represent all three of our patrons when we are starting at the location where they took us on our last moon quest
We also voted for hidden SSC project, so even more hidden. Which I am all in for, we never really did enough hidden, and I really want to have some more interaction with XIN before we leave the sect
