Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[CornyBones]

I also like the sound of violent girl. Hopefully we can make friends.

 

[Erebeal]

Okay, going for the rock off then

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So, guesses on the match?

I'm guessing best of three music improv contest given themes provided by the official.

First two matches are a positive and negstive theme, with us winning the negative one and her winning the positive one.

The dramatic final round is then something like "cultivation", so we essentially have to pit our philosophies against each other and see who can make the best case. Very shonen fight. Very appropriate to how cultivation works.

 

[archangis]

You sure? The closest I can think of is the time that Ling Qi almost suffered a real loss against Sun Liling which frustrated her so much she forced a "for real-ish" fight with her best friend and then moped about losing that without really resolving anything about the whole ordeal except to concede that it was unfair to expect to overcome the starting distance between them in short order. Ling Qi has barely lost, never taken it well, and always brushed it to the side.

She does have one advantage over many others in the culture she finds herself, and that's not caring about a lot of stuff others do. But that means those issues don't even enter the calculus of victory or failure for her, not that she deals with failure maturely.

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LQ dealt very well with her loss against Sun in the tournament.

 

[Erebeal]

Though hmm, might be better to follow shokugeki no soma here and focus on the preparation more.

So have them tell us both the theme in advance, and then focus on the development of the song. Gives room to build up tension and highlight the work that goes into it - as well as exploring Ling Qi's music and ideas more.

Would probably play better as a quest too.

 

[Alectai]

So, it seems like there were only four elders for the Outer Sect. Zhou, Su, Jiao, and Ying. Also pretty interesting that people refer to Elder Su by her given name instead of her family name. Is she just friendly and familiar with everyone?

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You misunderstand.

Those are the senior elders, they don't normally concern themselves with the Outer Sect, which is what Zhou was griping about.

Elder Ying isn't just "The defense Elder", she's the "In Charge of Internal Sect Security" Elder. Elder Jiao isn't just the old retired goofball, he's the Formations Grandmaster of the Sect. Elder Zhou isn't just "A cool badass hero". He's High Commander of the Argent Sect Forces.

 

[Thor's Twin]

You sure? The closest I can think of is the time that Ling Qi almost suffered a real loss against Sun Liling which frustrated her so much she forced a "for real-ish" fight with her best friend and then moped about losing that without really resolving anything about the whole ordeal except to concede that it was unfair to expect to overcome the starting distance between them in short order. Ling Qi has barely lost, never taken it well, and always brushed it to the side.

She does have one advantage over many others in the culture she finds herself, and that's not caring about a lot of stuff others do. But that means those issues don't even enter the calculus of victory or failure for her, not that she deals with failure maturely.

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I'm fairly positive. Ling Qi has lost at least three times in the Outer Sect and once already in the Inner Sect. This not even counting personal defeats during training/sparring or in faction conflicts. She has taken loosing well, rarely brushed it off to the side, and has learned from her looses.


First Loss: Elder Jiao's Trial

Ling Qi saw her friend stumble, her wounded leg buckling underneath her for a moment. It was all the opening her opponent needed. Rippling white leather covered in distorted eyes and mouths coiled around her throat, and the barbarians hands, twisted into bloody talons of bone plunged into her stomach, only for him to to tear in opposite directions, blood and other things spraying from the wound.

She heard herself scream something, interrupting her melody as she watched her friend slump in the barbarians grasp, her fires finally guttering out.

Everything went dark, and she knew no more.

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Learning Experience: Not every war can be won, even though the battles can be.

"Enough of that," Elder Jiao said dismissively, flicking his outrageously colored sleeve. "You were entertaining enough, and your performance in the first task was even quite good," he added irreverently. "Tell me, what mistakes do you imagine you made?"

Xiulan was the one who spoke up first. "I expended by energy too recklessly," she said heatedly, and Ling Qi saw her hands clench. "I… grew panicked, when a more conservative approach would have fit our strategy better."

"Fighting through the jungle at all I think," Ling Qi said with a frown. "I… honestly do not think we could have finished the second task, regardless. Unless we somehow stayed undetected the entire time."

She felt the Elder's gaze on her, even as she kept her eyes on the floor. "You are both right, though Disciple Ling has truth of the water. That battle might have been won, but the war was lost before you began," he said with a chuckle. He was silent for a few moments. "Regardless of choice, the first task was a test of your ability to fulfill an objective. The second… was always to see how far you push in the face of truly insurmountable odds," he said musingly. "That it gives many arrogant welp's a taste of true defeat to spur them forward is merely a bonus."

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Reaction to the Loss: Reacted fairly well. Acknowledging that she could have done better but not beating herself up over it.

It seemed she would have to wait though, so Ling Qi closed her eyes and began to meditate, beginning on the next stage of qi exercises for her Thousand Ring Fortress. If it had been a bit better, they might have been able to hold out long enough to win that encounter. For all that she had been given a pass though, Ling Qi was certain she had fault of her own. She was too reluctant to stop playing even once things were set up, worried too much about conserving qi. While Xiulan had gone too far, she should have been more aggressive… and less afraid to drop her flute. As it was now, it was nigh impervious to harm unless she was facing an opponent in a higher realm.

She reviewed the battle in her thoughts as she cycled wood natured qi, pushing it out through the channels in her body to suffuse the air, and soak into the ground beneath the rich carpeting. She was not sure how long she spent in meditation, but eventually she felt a subtle chill, and a feeling of presence, causing her eyes to snap open.

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Second Loss: The Sun Liling escape

Once or twice, she felt a surge of dread as she saw a flash of red in the snow far behind her, but she only poured on further speed, sprinting until her lungs burned with exertion as they hadn;t done in months. She only slowed down when she reached her goal, an innocuous snow covered boulder sitting at the bottom of a steep drop off. A quick inspection revealed nothing that resembled a trap, but to her Mirror enhanced senses the boulder was ephemeral. She passed through it, ghosting down the narrow tunnel into the rock wall behind it.

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This is at the tail end of the chase because there was no single moment where we lost. However, it felt like a loss to Ling Qi given that

Ling Qi breathed deeply, following the exercises held in her jade slip. She knew that she had overreacted. That the stress of being chased by Sun Liling had cracked her emotional control. She knew, objectively that she was quite strong, that there were very few people indeed on the outer sect mountain who could… push her into a corner like that.

So why did she still feel so weak? She knew it was ridiculous, there would always be someone stronger than her. Why did remembering the snarling visage of Sun Liling's helmet make her feel like a frightened girl cowering under a pile of trash again.

Her hands clenched on her knees, as she forced herself to maintain the breathing exercise, and push down that corner of her mind still consumed by gibbering panic and the desire to flee and hide. She just had too…

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Second Reaction: Actually fairly well in my opinion. There was some trauma, as indicated above, but she dealt with it through mediation and cultivation.
Second Lesson: That despite her own strength, she can still has a far way to go to be able to deal with the other strong contendors. Something Meizhen reinforced after the Green breakthrough.

Third Loss: The Tournament fight

Then a missile struck her back with the force of a giant's fist, and Thousand Rings Unbreaking shattered like glass, sending her sprawling forward at the sudden lack of support. She had but a moment to see the emerald disc spinning away as she scrambled back to her feet before a black axe blade slammed into her chest, making her ribs creak even as the majority of the blow was absorbed by her flagging qi. The darting twin blades came next, slashing across her throat in a shower of green sparks and leaving behind thin lines of blood.

The spear came last, shattering the last of her qi defenses to punch into her recently healed abdomen, and out of her back in a spray of blood.

As her vision faded, Ling Qi took satisfaction in the fact that Liling's expression was not happy at all.

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Third Reaction: Took it very well. Even in defeat took satisfaction from making Liling displeased and doesn't seem to bother her at all in the Inner Sect.
Third Lesson: That even in defeat, goals and objectives can still be accomplished.

Fourth Loss: The King of the Forest Event

Ling Qi remembered blood and death. Men and women screaming, begging for their lives.

She retched as she remembered killing them. Her throat burned, and she tasted bile on her lips as she forced herself to to her hands and knees, scrabbling in the cooling dirt as her eyes stung with tears. She almost threw up in truth when she saw her surroundings. Wreckage stretched as far as her eyes could see ruined huts and houses, torn up streets, and everywhere, everywhere bones and meat. Glassy eyes and empty sockets stared at her from all around, full of accusation and mockery. An endless graveyard, a charnel house is what greeted her here.

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She certainly didn't want this outcome, and the trauma of the event shook Ling Qi to her core. This was a loss in Ling Qi's opinion because

Well, at least this hadn't been for nothing Ling Qi thought, even if she could still taste blood on her tongue.

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Fourth Reaction: Poor. She feels conflicted and confused. Feels like she is sliding backward and this is affecting her cultivation.
Fourth Lesson: Ling Qi lacks the surety of her convictions and where the dividing lines are.

"It just feels like I'm sliding backward," Ling Qi said quietly, clasping her hands. "I… would I have stood by and remained silent if it was you there?"

Meizhen fell silent as the figure of an Elder Ling Qi did not know blinked into view below, at the overseers table. "I trust you would not. Ling Qi, it seems to me that you must make it clear to yourself, where your limits lie, your trouble lies in a lack of surety."

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There is a narrative making the rounds that Ling Qi doesn't loose and that she needs to learn how to loose. This narrative either comes from not remembering the struggles and losses of Ling Qi, or claiming those losses don't count because of X. Typically X is a lack of consequences. If it didn't really "hurt" us then the loss doesn't matter, regardless of the emotional weight and actual consequences of the loss. Unless the consequences reach a certain unquantifiable and unknown standard then the consequences didn't matter and then it wasn't a loss for Ling Qi.

Applying this standard to anyone else reveals the inherent holes in the argument. Ji Rong, for instance, didn't lose in the tournament fight with Ling Qi because there were no consequences. He got healed for free and continued on his way. He didn't get the highest reward tier, but apparently that's not enough to qualify Ling Qi for a loss and so it shouldn't qualify Ji Rong for a loss.

Additionally, Ji Rong didn't lose in the Thunderdome 2 battle. He didn't have any resources to lose and lasting punshiment was prevented. He simply went on his merry way without any consequences. No loss there.

He got locked in jail for a little over a week after his failed raiding party, but in exchange, Sun Liling got him tutors and did Hell Week training with him to get him back up to snuff. One could argue that the time lost was a significant enough consequence, but who's to say? Certainly not Ji Rong who got more in rewards and training for his failure then he would have had he succeed.

The only real loss Ji Rong had, under this arbitrary and fluctuating standard, was his loss to Xuan Shi where he was trapped for a month. But even then, at least it wasn't a season, he joined Sun Liling's faction because of it, and he certainly didn't learn anything from it.

Applying this standard to... anyone really, and it shows that Sun Liling, Li Suyin, and Yan Renshu are the only other people who have lost a fight. Meizhen hasn't lost a fight, Cai hasn't lost a fight, Xiulan hasn't lost a fight, Shen Hu didn't lose a fight, nobody but Sun Liling lost a fight in the Tournament. Li Suyin only lost a fight because she lost an eye and Yan Renshu lost his fight because he lost his entire base of operations.

Defeat is only determined by the significance of the consequence. Which begs the question... why shouldn't victory be determined by the weight of rewards? If the rewards don't reach a high enough standard... then there was no victory at all. Applying the inverse of the loss standard shows that Ling Qi won about... 2 fights? Maybe? The Vent fight and the Chu Song Tournament fight. Other than that... there were only monetary rewards for her victories. Maybe there are others, but hopefully the point is made. It cuts down significantly on the number of victories that Ling Qi has won.

No, saying that a loss without significant consequences is no loss at all is a ridiculous argument because it denies the emotional struggle of the fight. It simply makes all losses a simple equation. It takes all nuance out of fights and all the emotional stakes out of it.

Ling Qi has lost. This is a fact. She has struggled significantly to reach this point in her journey and denying this struggle by claiming she hasn't lost demonstrates a severe lack of understanding regarding where she was at in the beginning of the quest character wise to where she is now.

Furthermore, the argument that Ling Qi must lose to develop character has also been thrown around. This argument fails when we consider whether Ling Qi's character would develop should she fight a White and die. Ling Qi's character would not develop from this situation, which means that failure (by either an emotional definition or the ridiculous consequence definition) is not automatically an impetus for character growth. So that argument dies, right there. It is the struggle that defines how a character grows. Through victory or defeat, by struggling a character realizes their weaknesses and wants and from that can be developed further. The King of the Forest Arc is a great example, for even if you consider it a victory it is the strongest seed for character development in a long time.

So to answer the question, yes I'm quite sure that Ling Qi has lost, learned from those losses, and handled the majority of her losses well.

 

[Orkus Majorkus]

"But we have an exemplar of such early cultivation this very year!" Elder Jiao said brightly. "And they have such an interesting mind, do they not?"

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lol. Jiao you troll you.

 

[Thor's Twin]

For those interested in reasons why children are not generally allowed to cultivate

Elder Su gave the commander a brief look which Dong Feng could not read, but it was Elder Ying who spoke, her reedy voice nonetheless carrying a great weight to it. The air began to tingle with thickened qi as wills clashed through narrowed eyes "You know as well as any that beginning before the age of twelve is near pointless. A child so young cannot properly form even the first steps of a way. You may as well attempt to sculpt a wall from dry sand."

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It seems like 12 years old is the generally accepted time for cultivation because children younger than 12 cannot properly form the first steps of a way.

Edit: From the Royal Road Update

 

[Horium]

Hm. I still expected there to be more sect elders.

 

[Arkeus]

I'm fairly positive. Ling Qi has lost at least three times in the Outer Sect and once already in the Inner Sect. This not even counting personal defeats during training/sparring or in faction conflicts. She has taken loosing well, rarely brushed it off to the side, and has learned from her looses.


First Loss: Elder Jiao's Trial

Learning Experience: Not every war can be won, even though the battles can be.

Reaction to the Loss: Reacted fairly well. Acknowledging that she could have done better but not beating herself up over it.


Second Loss: The Sun Liling escape

This is at the tail end of the chase because there was no single moment where we lost. However, it felt like a loss to Ling Qi given that

Second Reaction: Actually fairly well in my opinion. There was some trauma, as indicated above, but she dealt with it through mediation and cultivation.
Second Lesson: That despite her own strength, she can still has a far way to go to be able to deal with the other strong contendors. Something Meizhen reinforced after the Green breakthrough.

Third Loss: The Tournament fight

Third Reaction: Took it very well. Even in defeat took satisfaction from making Liling displeased and doesn't seem to bother her at all in the Inner Sect.
Third Lesson: That even in defeat, goals and objectives can still be accomplished.

Fourth Loss: The King of the Forest Event

She certainly didn't want this outcome, and the trauma of the event shook Ling Qi to her core. This was a loss in Ling Qi's opinion because

Fourth Reaction: Poor. She feels conflicted and confused. Feels like she is sliding backward and this is affecting her cultivation.
Fourth Lesson: Ling Qi lacks the surety of her convictions and where the dividing lines are.


There is a narrative making the rounds that Ling Qi doesn't loose and that she needs to learn how to loose. This narrative either comes from not remembering the struggles and losses of Ling Qi, or claiming those losses don't count because of X. Typically X is a lack of consequences. If it didn't really "hurt" us then the loss doesn't matter, regardless of the emotional weight and actual consequences of the loss. Unless the consequences reach a certain unquantifiable and unknown standard then the consequences didn't matter and then it wasn't a loss for Ling Qi.

Applying this standard to anyone else reveals the inherent holes in the argument. Ji Rong, for instance, didn't lose in the tournament fight with Ling Qi because there were no consequences. He got healed for free and continued on his way. He didn't get the highest reward tier, but apparently that's not enough to qualify Ling Qi for a loss and so it shouldn't qualify Ji Rong for a loss.

Additionally, Ji Rong didn't lose in the Thunderdome 2 battle. He didn't have any resources to lose and lasting punshiment was prevented. He simply went on his merry way without any consequences. No loss there.

He got locked in jail for a little over a week after his failed raiding party, but in exchange, Sun Liling got him tutors and did Hell Week training with him to get him back up to snuff. One could argue that the time lost was a significant enough consequence, but who's to say? Certainly not Ji Rong who got more in rewards and training for his failure then he would have had he succeed.

The only real loss Ji Rong had, under this arbitrary and fluctuating standard, was his loss to Xuan Shi where he was trapped for a month. But even then, at least it wasn't a season, he joined Sun Liling's faction because of it, and he certainly didn't learn anything from it.

Applying this standard to... anyone really, and it shows that Sun Liling, Li Suyin, and Yan Renshu are the only other people who have lost a fight. Meizhen hasn't lost a fight, Cai hasn't lost a fight, Xiulan hasn't lost a fight, Shen Hu didn't lose a fight, nobody but Sun Liling lost a fight in the Tournament. Li Suyin only lost a fight because she lost an eye and Yan Renshu lost his fight because he lost his entire base of operations.

Defeat is only determined by the significance of the consequence. Which begs the question... why shouldn't victory be determined by the weight of rewards? If the rewards don't reach a high enough standard... then there was no victory at all. Applying the inverse of the loss standard shows that Ling Qi won about... 2 fights? Maybe? The Vent fight and the Chu Song Tournament fight. Other than that... there were only monetary rewards for her victories. Maybe there are others, but hopefully the point is made. It cuts down significantly on the number of victories that Ling Qi has won.

No, saying that a loss without significant consequences is no loss at all is a ridiculous argument because it denies the emotional struggle of the fight. It simply makes all losses a simple equation. It takes all nuance out of fights and all the emotional stakes out of it.

Ling Qi has lost. This is a fact. She has struggled significantly to reach this point in her journey and denying this struggle by claiming she hasn't lost demonstrates a severe lack of understanding regarding where she was at in the beginning of the quest character wise to where she is now.

Furthermore, the argument that Ling Qi must lose to develop character has also been thrown around. This argument fails when we consider whether Ling Qi's character would develop should she fight a White and die. Ling Qi's character would not develop from this situation, which means that failure (by either an emotional definition or the ridiculous consequence definition) is not automatically an impetus for character growth. So that argument dies, right there. It is the struggle that defines how a character grows. Through victory or defeat, by struggling a character realizes their weaknesses and wants and from that can be developed further. The King of the Forest Arc is a great example, for even if you consider it a victory it is the strongest seed for character development in a long time.

So to answer the question, yes I'm quite sure that Ling Qi has lost, learned from those losses, and handled the majority of her losses well.

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Man, those are quasi-perfect wins you are describing, not losses. If that's your standard for losses, this does explain why @yrsillar is so scared of actual losses.

Hell, I am not even talking about big losses, here. Something like how the Ma sisters were mugged by Hong Lin, or Han Jian was beat up by Kang Zihao/Ji Rong, or Xuan Shi by Ji Rong, would be a perfectly fine example of 'low stake losses'. We don't need how Yan Renshu got crippled by Wen Cao, or how Yan Renshu got his pills and arts and furnace stolen by Ling Qi, or how Ji Rong lost 7 weeks of progress, or how Kang Zihao lost a couple weeks.

But you really can't describe almost perfect wins as 'losses'. You can't describe Xiulan's showing in Elder Jiao as a loss given she got an art + Pills + experience. Or her tribulation. Those are wins. King of the forest arc was a win. Escaping from Sun Liling and being the key player in her losing her fortress was a win. Succeeding Elder Jiao's trial and being taken for tutoring and having great pills was a win.

This is depressing.

Also, man, your description of what happened to Ji Rong was hilariously off.

 

[commando2341]

@Thor's Twin that's excellent analysis.

I've always found that she handles setbacks remarkably maturely as opposed to some of her various colleagues who tend to.. obsess a bit.

 

[George]

Hm. I still expected there to be more sect elders.

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Do you mean specifically more involved in running that particular year of the outer sect?

 

[Arkeus]

Ji Rong is an interesting case, because while it should bite him in the arse, he has been super good in how he handles loss.

Xuan Shi beat him up and locks him for a month? He stalemated Xuan Shi and beat up Huang Da as soon as he leaves.... and then has to run away to Chu Song and not have any ressources for another month because of Sun Liling loss. Sun Liling lost in thunderdom 2? He beat up Xuan Shi and got back his pass as soon as he got ready, then he beat up Han jian and Han Fang soon after. Gan Guangli and Ling Qi ambushes him? He beat up Gan Guangli in the tournament and protagonist power vs protagonist power meant he lost against Ling Qi.

Basically, Ji Rong is super productive when he has a loss. He gets ready for revenge, and succeeds.

 

[DeAnno]

Basically, Ji Rong is super productive when he has a loss. He gets ready for revenge, and succeeds.

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Ji Rong has the magic of narrative rubberbanding and we don't. Ji Rong also doesn't have Cai Shenua breathing a deadline down his neck. The first "real loss" that Ling Qi takes could well be the end of all her serious ambitions, so I won't cry any tears at avoiding them.

 

[Axel Fones]

Man, those are quasi-perfect wins you are describing, not losses. If that's your standard for losses, this does explain why @yrsillar is so scared of actual losses.

Hell, I am not even talking about big losses, here. Something like how the Ma sisters were mugged by Hong Lin, or Han Jian was beat up by Kang Zihao/Ji Rong, or Xuan Shi by Ji Rong, would be a perfectly fine example of 'low stake losses'. We don't need how Yan Renshu got crippled by Wen Cao, or how Yan Renshu got his pills and arts and furnace stolen by Ling Qi, or how Ji Rong lost 7 weeks of progress, or how Kang Zihao lost a couple weeks.

But you really can't describe almost perfect wins as 'losses'. You can't describe Xiulan's showing in Elder Jiao as a loss given she got an art + Pills + experience. Or her tribulation. Those are wins. King of the forest arc was a win. Escaping from Sun Liling and being the key player in her losing her fortress was a win. Succeeding Elder Jiao's trial and being taken for tutoring and having great pills was a win.

This is depressing.

Also, man, your description of what happened to Ji Rong was hilariously off.

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I think you're ignoring his point, that people forget the emotional nuance behind those events, even if LQ got good rewards.
Particularly Xiulan's showing in Elder Jiao's trial. Her self-esteem was pretty clearly wrecked-which can have an impact on cultivation- and what pushed her to do her tribulation and heavily scar her body. Maybe she still would have done the tribulation without Jia's trial happening, but it definitely increased the odds of it happening. It was a an implicit statement of resolve by Xiulan that she desired power and was willing to pay for it with her looks, something she puts a lot of stock .

 

[George]

Ji Rong has the magic of narrative rubberbanding and we don't. Ji Rong also doesn't have Cai Shenua breathing a deadline down his neck. The first "real loss" that Ling Qi takes could well be the end of all her serious ambitions, so I won't cry any tears at avoiding them.

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Yeah... honestly that paradigm makes me regret the Cai route.

 

[Arkeus]

Ji Rong has the magic of narrative rubberbanding and we don't. Ji Rong also doesn't have Shenua Cai breathing a deadline down his neck. The first "real loss" that Ling Qi takes could well be the end of all her serious ambitions, so I won't cry any tears at avoiding them.

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I completely agree. I think we should put all our efforts into preventing losses. Ling Qi isn't Ji Rong, and she doesn't have Rubberbanding magic. More to the point, it would be really sad if we got rubberbanding magic to make things easier so that we could 'lose safely'.

We are on a timetable, and while learning how to deal with loss is a good long term thing, it's not actually something we can safely do.

I think you're ignoring his point, that people forget the emotional nuance behind those events, even if LQ got good rewards.
Particularly Xiulan's showing in Elder Jiao's trial. Her self-esteem was pretty clearly wrecked-which can have an impact on cultivation- and what pushed her to do her tribulation and heavily scar her body. Maybe she still would have done the tribulation without Jia's trial happening, but it definitely increased the odds of it happening. It was a an implicit statement of resolve by Xiulan that she desired power and was willing to pay for it with her looks, something she puts a lot of stock .

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I am not forgetting his point at all. Those emotional nuances are that Ling Qi is greedy as hell and is a sore winner.

Not that she has had loss and took those well.

Also, about Xiulan's tribulation, we have WoG there was nothing we could have done to make it not happen unless we had stopped cultivating... and even then it wouldn't have likely worked.

 

[Varder]

I agree with Arkeus on this one. And I'd just like to add that in most of the examples Twin uses LQ wasn't expected to do better than she did. The outcomes were not absolute best, but everyone around her counted it as her win.

 

[Ayashi]

Ji Rong is an interesting case, because while it should bite him in the arse, he has been super good in how he handles loss.

Xuan Shi beat him up and locks him for a month? He stalemated Xuan Shi and beat up Huang Da as soon as he leaves.... and then has to run away to Chu Song and not have any ressources for another month because of Sun Liling loss. Sun Liling lost in thunderdom 2? He beat up Xuan Shi and got back his pass as soon as he got ready, then he beat up Han jian and Han Fang soon after. Gan Guangli and Ling Qi ambushes him? He beat up Gan Guangli in the tournament and protagonist power vs protagonist power meant he lost against Ling Qi.

Basically, Ji Rong is super productive when he has a loss. He gets ready for revenge, and succeeds.

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...which implies bad things for Ling Qi if we ever face him again...

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

Another perspective for loss and its relevance to the quest is, rather than Ling Qi's perception of it, our perception of it. Specifically, our investment in the outcome of a situation and whether or not we get affirmed or disappointed.

In a lot of ways our perspective aligns with Ling Qi's, since we want her to succeed and she wants to succeed, but we misalign on other things. Ling Qi was upset at herself for having to flee from Sun Liling, feeling like she was back to being weak and powerless, but Ling Qi reacts much more strongly to that kind of situation than we do, and our major investment in the situation (getting away with our stuff) was affirmed. It was a loss for Ling Qi but a win for us.

I feel like when people say that Ling Qi doesn't suffer enough consequences for her losses to truly 'count', they mean that they don't feel like their investment in a given situation has been anything but rewarded. We lose to Sun Liling in the tournament, but we never expected to win so we don't mind losing; we had no investment in it. I still don't quite agree with this line of thinking, but in my mind it feels truer to what the actual objection is.

 

[GoodOldChap]

Man, those are quasi-perfect wins you are describing, not losses. If that's your standard for losses, this does explain why @yrsillar is so scared of actual losses.

Hell, I am not even talking about big losses, here. Something like how the Ma sisters were mugged by Hong Lin, or Han Jian was beat up by Kang Zihao/Ji Rong, or Xuan Shi by Ji Rong, would be a perfectly fine example of 'low stake losses'. We don't need how Yan Renshu got crippled by Wen Cao, or how Yan Renshu got his pills and arts and furnace stolen by Ling Qi, or how Ji Rong lost 7 weeks of progress, or how Kang Zihao lost a couple weeks.

But you really can't describe almost perfect wins as 'losses'. You can't describe Xiulan's showing in Elder Jiao as a loss given she got an art + Pills + experience. Or her tribulation. Those are wins. King of the forest arc was a win. Escaping from Sun Liling and being the key player in her losing her fortress was a win. Succeeding Elder Jiao's trial and being taken for tutoring and having great pills was a win.

This is depressing.

Also, man, your description of what happened to Ji Rong was hilariously off.

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even if you disagree with them being total loses calling them "quasi-perfect wins" seems pretty ridiculous to me

 

[Aranfan]

King of the forest arc was a win.

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What. How?

 

[Alectai]

King of the Forest was a win from a narrative (Opens up character development opportunities, furthers the overall plot better than a forgettable trial win would) and mechanical (Permanent +10 penetration, possible Not!Kamui development fodder) standpoint. It was a terrible defeat from Ling Qi's perspective, which is the one that ultimately matters from a characterization viewpoint.

Crushing and overwhelming defeat is really only appropriate if the story is a tragedy. Otherwise, an avenue for recovery always needs to either exist or be provided. And frankly, I'd much prefer a "Character doesn't feel good about it even if it's a win from a position of pure unclouded logic" outcome rather than a Meng Hao or Lin Ming style "Your cultivation is shattered and you have been utterly defeated in an irrevocable sense by common logic. This is to teach you defeat so that I can now give you infinite power and start the crazy train in earnest after twenty chapters or so of introspection".

And our origin is literally the "You have no safety net origin, you can't actually shrug off total and overwhelming defeat like everyone else theoretically can". Ji Rong, for instance, has such obscene Talent that any time he's not being actively starved of resources, he's going faster than the ducal heirs, so he can afford to lose a few months and still keep pace with us. The Ducal Scions are obvious, and the various High Nobles have their families to carry them if they stumble--for reputation if nothing else.

And then you've got Suyin, who's also a first generation Cultivator--but she's such a ridiculous super nerd that she's developed a potentially very valuable resource for the Sect--and they're going to bend over backwards to see her develop it further.

 

[Aranfan]

King of the Forest was a win from a narrative (Opens up character development opportunities, furthers the overall plot better than a forgettable trial win would) and mechanical (Permanent +10 penetration, possible Not!Kamui development fodder) standpoint. It was a terrible defeat from Ling Qi's perspective, which is the one that ultimately matters from a characterization viewpoint.

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That's what I'm talking about. We are discussing how Ling Qi deals with loss. From her perspective, King of the Forest was an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Thor's Twin]

Man, those are quasi-perfect wins you are describing, not losses. If that's your standard for losses, this does explain why @yrsillar is so scared of actual losses.

Hell, I am not even talking about big losses, here. Something like how the Ma sisters were mugged by Hong Lin, or Han Jian was beat up by Kang Zihao/Ji Rong, or Xuan Shi by Ji Rong, would be a perfectly fine example of 'low stake losses'. We don't need how Yan Renshu got crippled by Wen Cao, or how Yan Renshu got his pills and arts and furnace stolen by Ling Qi, or how Ji Rong lost 7 weeks of progress, or how Kang Zihao lost a couple weeks.

But you really can't describe almost perfect wins as 'losses'. You can't describe Xiulan's showing in Elder Jiao as a loss given she got an art + Pills + experience. Or her tribulation. Those are wins. King of the forest arc was a win. Escaping from Sun Liling and being the key player in her losing her fortress was a win. Succeeding Elder Jiao's trial and being taken for tutoring and having great pills was a win.

This is depressing.

Also, man, your description of what happened to Ji Rong was hilariously off.

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I'm glad that you thought that my description of what happened to Ji Rong was hilariously off, after all, it is the application of your argument about Ling Qi's successes to Ji Rong. If you thought that it was my opinion on what Ji Rong suffered, then you really didn't understand the post.

I'm also glad that you think a low-stake loss would be sufficient. After all, Ling Qi utterly failed in her attempted attack on Yan Renshu and lost a valuable escape talisman to avoid being buried under rubble for her trouble. Or was that a win as well? After all, Yan Renshu didn't take it off of our unconscious body, so you might not consider that a loss at all.

The interpretation of Elder Jiao's test is hilariously off the mark as well. It's quite depressing really how the event has been twisted into a near perfect win when it was 2 wins and a loss for 2 events. 1/3 of the conflicts being lost is not a "near perfect win" especially when one of those wins was on an optional bonus objective. We completed the cloud barbarian mission near perfectly, barely scraped by against the Sunflower Monster, and then lost to the Jungle Hunters. The pills were rewarded for completing the barbarian task, Argent Current for completing a bonus objective, and we got the tutoring because of our exceptional performance in the Barbarian task, not for our efforts in the Western Jungle.

What Ling Qi feels is a win is what's important, not what you rationalize as a win. You can say that escaping Sun Liling was a win, but Ling Qi disagrees. She felt weak and powerless during it, like a scared child hiding under the trash. That's not a winning emotion. There was no excitement for winning, no elation at having succeeded, only relief that we weren't caught and thrashed.

And if rewards are all that it takes for a win ("art + Pills + Experience") then my analysis of your argument when applied to Ji Rong is still valid. Even more so actually.

I am not forgetting his point at all. Those emotional nuances are that Ling Qi is greedy as hell and is a sore winner.

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I think... you are reading an entirely different character than what is actually being written. Where has she been a sore winner? Ever?