DeusExBritannia
Red-White-Black-White
- Location
- Texas
I'm just happy there was an update. I have nothing to complain about.
There's an enormous range of responses between a simple no and murder. I for one think we may have been injured if he refused us.The vote was not "stand in his path and defend Shen Hu/the villagers with OUR LIVES!" it was "ask the affable superior who seems a little positively disposed to us if maybe they could be spared". Him flipping out and murdering us wasn't really a likely outcome at all. The worst that could happen was that he says "no". At that point, we'd have done all we could and absolutely it would be fair to say we weren't obligated to pointlessly commit suicide. If that happened Ling Qi would still be pissed at her lack of power, but she wouldn't have the same reason to feel like she'd betrayed herself.
Mmm, we didn't no. But if we decided that yes, we made the right decision here and would do it again because we don't want to risk losing possible power gains then I think we would be saying that we would be prepared to do that.I do agree that a simple desire for power should have played a role in the narrative.
However, considering no innocents or acquaintances died here, I have to object to the idea that we sacrificed them for power.
And why would he do that? The narrative of the option was "For shortening my hunt for the oathbreakers and protecting one of my vassals, I would give you a boon," by requesting the boon be the protection of Shen Hu and/or the mortals under his care, she's not automatically saying, "I think you are evil and in the wrong, I spit upon you and your boon," which would get her attacked. In making the request, it sets up a parallel between Ling Qi and The King of The Forest, because in deferring to Ling Qi, Shen Hu elevated her to a position of command authority, not unlike the Deer Man (there is a difference in scale, certainly, but the logical throughline is similar enough), and opens up a line of argumentation for Ling Qi to make her case for why Shen Hu and the Weilu mortals should be spared.
I think that the individuals who are interpreting this series of events as the Bloody Moon trying to impress upon Ling Qi the importance of being selfless are misinterpreting the events. If the lesson that Ling Qi takes from this is that she should be more selfless then I will consider that a failure on our part and on Ling Qi's part in understanding and forging an actual lesson from these events.
The Bloody Moon wasn't happy with Shen Hu because he saw failure and resolved to do better next time. It is more likely that the Bloody Moon was pleased because Shen Hu was willing to do tremendous amounts of violence in order to achieve what he believes needs to be achieved. I would find it hard to believe that the Bloody Moon would reward selflessness, but it is much easier to believe that the Bloody Moon would reward an individual who did this:
during the trial. Which Shen Hu did. He fought and lashed out in grief for the villagers who were slain and then was slain in turn. Shen Hu exemplified this, and so the Bloody Moon was pleased with him.
No, there are more poignant lessons for Ling Qi to learn, and always being selfless is not one of them. While I don't think that Ling Qi's plan was to change the White's plan when meeting him, I think that the words she spoke in his presence and the events afterward do lead to a possible lesson.
"Having the understanding to affect the paths and plans of giants is meaningless if one does not follow through on one's convictions."
We went to meet the King to gain an understanding of the Dream, but when we met him we didn't know what we would do with that understanding. That indecision cost us and made us falter in fear. The Hidden and Grinning Moon are powerful, but can not assist us if we do not actually go through with what we want. There are things to learn here, but I do feel that being selfless is not the correct lesson.
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On a related note, I do think that some of our problems in decision making was approaching this in the manner of the Hidden Moon. Seeking understanding and knowledge of what the Dream was. There were clear indications from the get-go that this was a Bloody Moon quest, and so approaching this as a quest for knowledge was probably not the wisest of choices, especially on my part.
Seeking knowledge without a care about where the knowledge would lead is probably not a good attitude to have. The Bloody Moon should not be trifled with and seeking knowledge and understanding of a Bloody Moon Trial probably leads directly to the middle of a field of carnage. At least the Bloody Moon gave us the understanding that we so craved, just with a method that was too visceral for Ling Qi to handle.
"I'm sorry Ling Qi," Sixiang said, voice muffled by her hair. "I'm a crappy friend. I shoulda been able to figure out that this was one of her butcher plays...I shoulda paid more attention. I could have asked around, even if she was hiding her mark."
"There isn't one," She heard Sixiang mutter bitterly in her ear. "Sorry Ling Qi." To her surprise, she felt their slender arms wrap around her shoulders. Were they still in a dream then? "I failed, I didn't see this bitch's fingerprints all over this until too late."
Yeah, I agree it's fair to say that accepting this decision as right means accepting risking our acquaintance's* lives for power, which also makes it more difficult to make sacrifices to save innocents. There does seem to be a conflict within both the thread and Ling Qi's thoughts between ambition and strong moral fiber.Mmm, we didn't no. But if we decided that yes, we made the right decision here and would do it again because we don't want to risk losing possible power gains then I think we would be saying that we would be prepared to do that.
While them being dreams and not "real" does mitigate things, we should not forget that both Ling Qi and Shen Hu treated the dream as real, and the occupants as people. Even if we ignore that, she did at that point certainly consider the dream to be dangerous, and Shen Hu to be in the line of fire. That he was in no real danger was not something she knew at the time she made her decision. IF she decided that going for potential power here and ignoring the safety of her allies/friends was the correct decision then that would absolutely be a statement about the relative value she places on such things, and her willingness to discard her friends' safety and potentially lives in the pursuit of power.
He'd do that because he was already furious and we spurned his gifts. Some people do see asking for something else as spitting on a gift and we can't be certain if he's one of them. He may well be a massive hypocrite, yes, though I don't necessarily agree that this necessitates that.And why would he do that? The narrative of the option was "For shortening my hunt for the oathbreakers and protecting one of my vassals, I would give you a boon," by requesting the boon be the protection of Shen Hu and/or the mortals under his care, she's not automatically saying, "I think you are evil and in the wrong, I spit upon you and your boon," which would get her attacked. In making the request, it sets up a parallel between Ling Qi and The King of The Forest, because in deferring to Ling Qi, Shen Hu elevated her to a position of command authority, not unlike the Deer Man (there is a difference in scale, certainly, but the logical throughline is similar enough), and opens up a line of argumentation for Ling Qi to make her case for why Shen Hu and the Weilu mortals should be spared.
Was The King of The Forest going to change his mind? Unlikely, the mannerisms he displayed, and how the Bloody Moon's plays apparently all play out suggests that the hunt was going to continue and the mortals were going to be killed. But to strike at Ling Qi for exhibiting the same kind of concern he displays to the spirits of the forest without her insulting him through her argument requires that he be a massive hypocrite.
I am actually okay with this. Maybe it's the ...engineer-philosopher in me, but the meta lesson is a very very important one. I don't think we can understand Cai's Kosmos/Unity if we don't understand Kaos/purposeless.Yup. We should have taken the path of Mercy. Anyone voting for Fang or Hide?
YOU DID THIS.
I would argue though that in terms of relative risk the odds were definitely favoring us. Yes, it wasn't absolutely safe, but we had fairly good reason to think that we could at least ask - especially given that Shen Hu also helped save the tree and thus he kinda owes him as much as us.He'd do that because he was already furious and we spurned his gifts. Some people do see asking for something else as spitting on a gift and we can't be certain if he's one of them. He may well be a massive hypocrite, yes, though I don't necessarily agree that this necessitates that.
Keep in mind I'm already only talking about the case where he declines to spare Shen Hu.
I do agree he was facing more risk than us; I just don't consider him a friend (yet, anyway) and want to carefully limit what I consider unnecessary exposure to risk. I do think if e.g. Han Jian is in clear and present danger, we should accept considerable risk to help him, and that accepting this decision makes Ling Qi question whether she would.I would argue though that in terms of relative risk the odds were definitely favoring us. Yes, it wasn't absolutely safe, but we had fairly good reason to think that we could at least ask - especially given that Shen Hu also helped save the tree and thus he kinda owes him as much as us.
In contrast, Shen Hu was totally within the line of fire and in immediate danger. It's one thing to say we wouldn't throw our life away for our friends - which I'm fine with. It's another to say we're not willing to accept any risk to try to save them from clear and present danger.
I do specifically recall people quoting Shen Hu going "all this high-level stuff isn't for me" and contrasting it with the fact that it WAS for us; so I don't think this is an example of LQ diverging from thread-thought.The vote to wait for the King was motivated partly for people wanting the lore, partly for loot, partly because helping villagers was seen as breaking Ling Qi's way. However, Ling Qi's own take on it was 'experience dealing with high stakes'.
The Bloody Moon was actively trying to deceive us (and our Moon spirit) into thinking this wasn't a so-called butcher play (which she seems to have quite the reputation for). In retrospect, some of the themes might perhaps have pointed towards the Bloody Moon being involved, but approaching this mysterious moon dream whose location was indicated on the moon map in a manner consistent with our patrons' preferences and Ling Qi's own nature was I feel still the logical choice. Going by Yrsillars' above comment, the trial seems to be designed to viscerally perturb the participants or even worse (I don't want to imagine the non-intact way of getting through this).
The moment that they entered the range of the memory would have been obvious even without Sixiang's prodding. One moment they were standing under a bright noonday sun, and the next they were under a night sky, and the forest was burning. Lurid light made the cool dark of night into a mockery of day and plumes of smoke rose into the sky, framing a sullen crimson crescent moon.
A hint here might be the moon? I mean, it is a crimson crescent which could either be the grinning or the bloody moon, but given that it is crimson I feel that it is more likely to be bloody. Given that the transition to killings done in the name of justice is a more recent aspect, I feel that the crimson moon might be an indicator that this dream is about bloody vengeance.
Good Fucking Catch
The Bloody Moon is overhead, and she's the goddess of vengeance and punishment.
And the Ent is calling the Horned Prince Oathbreakers, precisely the kind of things spirits of vengeance are invoked for.
The Bloody Moon hangs in the sky, a symbol of blood and vengeance - who is seeking those things? The Prince and his family? The Tree and the forest it belongs to? Or both?
It's worth keeping in mind that this is a memory coloured by the Bloody Moon, that we found based on a crit from a Hidden Moon map. The choices we've been given show that influence: the Weilu and the ent options look like a choice between the vengeance and justice aspects of the Bloody Moon, and the search for more info one is very hidden moon. The rewards we get, if any, will probably be influenced by which aspect of the Moon we choose. Unfortunately, despite picking the HM as a patron, LQ is pretty trash at investigation, especially compared to her combat ability. Our best opportunity for doingdreally well and getting a grwag reward is one of the Bloody Moon combat options, and I prefer the ent option, since the oathbreaker comment makes me think it's the justice aspect option, and we did sign up with CRX.
Mmm, I would suggest though that being completely unwilling to stick her neck out for allies in any way is unlikely to serve her well socially, politically, or in her pursuit of power.I do agree he was facing more risk than us; I just don't consider him a friend (yet, anyway) and want to carefully limit what I consider unnecessary exposure to risk. I do think if e.g. Han Jian is in clear and present danger, we should accept considerable risk to help him, and that accepting this decision makes Ling Qi question whether she would.
I'd say there's actually two critiques the Bloody Moon offered, and that some people are conflating them. (I am ignoring arguments that recognize this was a backsliding and narratively good, etc etc., because those are playing in the sandbox of recognizing the character history. This is solely to people who don't agree there was a backsliding in the first place.)
The first is that Ling Qi isn't a BM-type cultivator; that's fine and most people agree that Ling Qi isn't (and it'd be unlikely Ling Qi'd develop in that way). But people are using that to disregard BM's other critique, which is that Ling Qi didn't know conviction in her chosen Path. That's generic to all cultivators: be true to yourself. Failing to be true to oneself makes the cultivator feel like shit and makes them waver on their Path (i.e. get debuffed).
There's a toxic combination of: 1) we didn't want the BM anyway (irrelevant; BM's second critique is something all cultivators must show if they want to progress on their Path); or 2) Ling Qi shouldn't think of that as her Path (ignores Ling Qi's actual in-text thoughts and the history of the character arc).
The second response is more a meta-argument wherein some people want to drag Ling Qi closer to their line of thinking, but Ling Qi has always been a defined character with her own character arcs and thoughts. Regardless of what some people may think Ling Qi should feel, Ling Qi textually feels that not asking for Shen Hu's safety (note that she doesn't give a fig about the mortals so the save mortals choice was a stretch for her, but she did care re Shen Hu) meant she had defaulted back to the person she was as a street rat, someone she disliked and rejected in Zhou Test part 2 (i.e. that she could change and make different decisions). That she had become "disloyal" and a "coward" like she was accused of in that test.
We help guide her in her actions, and her character as now was somewhat guided by such decisions in FOD ... but she's Green now. She's set her domain and laid down the Path. Changing it is probably going to mean extreme dissonance with attendant corollary issues on cultivation. Switching Paths is hard! Also it's going to waver back and forth with even more dissonance because quite frankly, a significant group of people like that Ling Qi attempted to move away from her street rat origins (with various success).
It's funny how often the thread recycles variations of the character beats though (Elder Zhou test 2 re spider spirit conversation, which led into choosing to stand by Bai Meizhen in the Thunderdome ambush; failing to go to Li Suyin after the initial Thunderdome fight, leading to Li Suyin's permanent injury, which meant that Ling Qi insisted on helping Gu Xiulan in Growing Paints) - although perhaps a good portion of the voters now weren't there for the original choices so it's a new lesson.
"You have been coddled child, if you imagine that all or even most things hold a native purpose. It is the duty of humankind to forge meaning from the blind mechanics of the world."
Justice is something only humans can define. If you disapprove, then do not merely complain. It is such a troublesome mantle your kind have saddled me with."
Not Dreaming or Grinning? FVM and SCS have been our bread and butter since nearly the beginning; I don't even think we have any Arts associated with the Hidden Moon, other than the one we're going to train soon. The Hidden Moon may have given them to us, but I've always figured we were more of a musician and thief than a scholar.
Mmm, we didn't no. But if we decided that yes, we made the right decision here and would do it again because we don't want to risk losing possible power gains then I think we would be saying that we would be prepared to do that.
While them being dreams and not "real" does mitigate things, we should not forget that both Ling Qi and Shen Hu treated the dream as real, and the occupants as people. Even if we ignore that, she did at that point certainly consider the dream to be dangerous, and Shen Hu to be in the line of fire. That he was in no real danger was not something she knew at the time she made her decision. IF she decided that going for potential power here and ignoring the safety of her allies/friends was the correct decision then that would absolutely be a statement about the relative value she places on such things, and her willingness to discard her friends' safety and potentially lives in the pursuit of power.
In contrast, Shen Hu was totally within the line of fire and in immediate danger. It's one thing to say we wouldn't throw our life away for our friends - which I'm fine with. It's another to say we're not willing to accept any risk to try to save them from clear and present danger.
There is context that's important there, though. While Ling Qi definitely saw it as her not doing right to Shen Hu and we should be wary of such things in the future, it's complicated by the fact that what was happening to Shen Hu was actually a basic trial run of what he would do as a Baron's son later on. He himself comments on this.Mmm, I would suggest though that being completely unwilling to stick her neck out for allies in any way is unlikely to serve her well socially, politically, or in her pursuit of power.
There is context that's important there, though. While Ling Qi definitely saw it as her not doing right to Shen Hu and we should be wary of such things in the future, it's complicated by the fact that what was happening to Shen Hu was actually a basic trial run of what he would do as a Baron's son later on. He himself comments on this.
This is back to "Arkeus thinks differently than Ling Qi, especially because there is distance", but it's hard for me to consider the "Save Shen Hu" option as one that's "not sacrificing Shen Hu" rather than "Negate all risks for Shen Hu", with a distinct "Risks in the sect are not deadly and are good for growth".
It's like how Meizhen has to let Ling Qi go to Zeqing tribulations, or to Dreaming Moon parties, or that Ling Qi ultimately has to accept Xiulan chaining tribulation for power. Yes, in this case, Ling Qi did feel like she was betraying Shen Hu by not speaking up... but my own instincts are "speaking up for Shen Hu would have just meant shorting him of a trial".
Hell, if people are correct that he got a care package from Bloody Moon, he likely wouldn't have had one that way.
I think we'll see exactly what LQ thinks about all this next update.
I'd rather wait than see people project on the character, tbh.
Huh, Cai's ready to challenge already? I mean her mom lit a fire under her, but still, i'd expect her to want to brush up her combat arts-"We now begin the challenge given by Disciple Eight Hundred and Ten, Cai Renxiang, to Disciple Seven Hundred Ninety Five, Liu Su,"
That poor, doomed fool! I don't want to see!"In accordance with Sect Rules, Disciple Liu has chosen a match of administrative competence, in lieu of a personal duel."
Well Cai really doesn't need to worry about people challenging her if she can pick that as the duel. I have a hard time imagining anyone beating her at that.Huh, Cai's ready to challenge already? I mean her mom lit a fire under her, but still, i'd expect her to want to brush up her combat arts-
That poor, doomed fool! I don't want to see!
Someone did her research before picking a target.