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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

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Inferno Vulpix said:
If you're the one challenging then you have no option to gain CP, just get your collateral refunded, but if someone challenges you then that's an opportunity to add to your CP totals.
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Ah, right...but I'm not really seeing Ling Qi as making a good target unless we stay still. Considering what seems to be Sect norms, the typical challenge process goes like:
1) Hit a new level of development in some area. Variable time
2) Scope out a target for several months while you train and purchase counters to the target
3) Challenge the target, preferably with more points wagered than they can afford to refuse
Net result of about 3-4 months between challenges, with your defense getting the minimum effort that your Way and Face can justify(because theres basically no cost to losing unless you're on the brink already) in order to keep your cards hidden for your challenge. This is a good cycle, since it lets the Production students refill their project box between important challenges and just buy off lesser annoyances with their Lots Of CP from sect duties.

That reads like its almost never worth it to challenge people until they plateau out for a time, because you can't get good data on them if they are shuffling about, which means its a lot riskier.
Which basically means fast climbers like Renxiang(and Ling Qi) are rarely worth challenging .
 
veekie said:
Ah, right...but I'm not really seeing Ling Qi as making a good target unless we stay still. Considering what seems to be Sect norms, the typical challenge process goes like:
1) Hit a new level of development in some area. Variable time
2) Scope out a target for several months while you train and purchase counters to the target
3) Challenge the target, preferably with more points wagered than they can afford to refuse
Net result of about 3-4 months between challenges, with your defense getting the minimum effort that your Way and Face can justify(because theres basically no cost to losing unless you're on the brink already) in order to keep your cards hidden for your challenge. This is a good cycle, since it lets the Production students refill their project box between important challenges and just buy off lesser annoyances with their Lots Of CP from sect duties.

That reads like its almost never worth it to challenge people until they plateau out for a time, because you can't get good data on them if they are shuffling about, which means its a lot riskier.
Which basically means fast climbers like Renxiang(and Ling Qi) are rarely worth challenging .
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Point number 3 is pretty ridiculously unlikely. When refusing a challenge, the defender expends their contribution points. Losing a challenge has barely any impact on one's ranking, and dodging a challenge doesn't look much better than losing one. There's reasons for a disciple to refuse a challenge, but it shouldn't be anything like the norm. It just doesn't make economical/time sense.
 
AbeoLogos said:
Point number 3 is pretty ridiculously unlikely. When refusing a challenge, the defender expends their contribution points. Losing a challenge has barely any impact on one's ranking, and dodging a challenge doesn't look much better than losing one. There's reasons for a disciple to refuse a challenge, but it shouldn't be anything like the norm. It just doesn't make economical/time sense.
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It does strongly incentivize giving a shitty performance instead yeah. Wonder how they deal with that exploit.
Or possibly anyone who's willing to take a fall that easily won't get far cultivating?
 
veekie said:
It does strongly incentivize giving a shitty performance instead yeah. Wonder how they deal with that exploit.
Or possibly anyone who's willing to take a fall that easily won't get far cultivating?
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Why does it given an incentive for a shitty performance? It's always better to win, it's just that losing rarely matter.

Still, if someone wants to climb they need CP, and as such 'free CP' from people challenging you makes it so it's always worth trying your best to win. Especially once one consider that one of the best ways to get better is being challenged in difficult things by an expert on those things.

It's just those things that don't make sense:
yrsillar said:
"Challenges are… an interesting thing," The Wen scion replied, weighing his own cup in his hand. "Given the unusual talent of your graduating class, you are somewhat more secure than the usual newcomers. I would suggest accepting the first few challenges which come your way. Proving your mettle will reduce frivolous attempts."
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Why the hell would someone /not/ accept the first few challenges? It really helps get a good idea on how strong people are in the inner sect, it helps improve your abilities, and losing is cheaper than just refusing the challenge.

Only reason if you want to go closed door or something.
 
Arkeus said:
Why does it given an incentive for a shitty performance? I
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Give three subpar performances, everyone think you are weak, beat the next contestant. 3 lost places (which probably don't matter) and some free CP.

Same for challenging. Lose until you go down a rank in sect reward, challenge higher, everyone think you are over reaching so you get a more easy win.

And also if you want to challenge higher, hiding your secret weapon/art/level can be very usefull.
 
archangis said:
Give three subpar performances, everyone think you are weak, beat the next contestant. 3 lost places (which probably don't matter) and some free CP.

Same for challenging. Lose until you go down a rank in sect reward, challenge higher, everyone think you are over reaching so you get a more easy win.

And also if you want to challenge higher, hiding your secret weapon/art/level can be very usefull.
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You don't get free CP if you lose, but you get free CP if you win.

Getting a higher rank than you could get with a 'clean' win just means sliding down again as you cant maintain your position, but the more important thing is that the person you are challenging is not going to assume you are weak with such a method, they are going to assume you have a plan to bring them down.

I do agree that, say, 807 might take a loss rather than use their special one-off talisman, as taking a loss doesn't matter beside not gaining CP, while the one-off talisman might be useful two days later for challenging other people. There is a distinct difference between "Not showing your secret trump card" and "Taking a loss on purpose" though.
 
that we are the one challenging means that our opponents get to choose what the challenge will be about. If 807 chooses a particular scenario then you can bet that he is willing to use the matching item. Further, fighting off a challenge is a way to earn CP for him too, so he does have a reason to want the win.
 
The main risks one faces from being challenge seem to be:
  • Loss of face if you lose
  • Loss of resources expended on trying to win the fight: e.g. loss of secrecy for revealed abilities, loss of single use items, loss of time spent researching your opponent
  • Physical/Psychological damage from the fight
I'm not sure how much face you actually lose by being beaten, and how that compares to the loss of face for refusing a challenge in the first place.
I'm also not sure what the policy on damaging your opponent is - e.g. could Bai Meizhen's beatdown of Kang have happened in a challenge?
 
the main loss this turn would be that without the extra 20 YSS we can win here, we have to sell something for our turn 3 investment. (we are currently about 18 YSS from our target value)
 
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[X] Look into other targets

I don't find any option better than the others, so maybe more choice would help ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Arthelys said:
[] Look into other targets

I don't find any option better than the others, so maybe more choice would help ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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DeAnno said:
Challenging with 10 CP seems excessive to me, but we haven't gotten guidlines yet from Yrs.
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Basically depends how hard and punishing challenging is supposed to be. The danger is that if it's too little it encourages a lot of challenges all the time, and Elder time is limited.
 
Arkeus said:
You need to put a X between the [] for the tally to see your vote.

Basically depends how hard and punishing challenging is supposed to be. The danger is that if it's too little it encourages a lot of challenges all the time, and Elder time is limited.
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Defeating a challenge is a way for them to gain CP too and refusing a challenge costs them too. So there is an incentive to accept a challenge even if you could refuse it in theory, it just isnt worth it.

In addition, most other disciple start with 10 CP and it seems unreasonable to have a rule that forces them to go all in on the first attempt.
 
naths said:
Defeating a challenge is a way for them to gain CP too and refusing a challenge costs them too. So there is an incentive to accept a challenge even if you could refuse it in theory, it just isnt worth it.

In addition, most other disciple start with 10 CP and it seems unreasonable to have a rule that forces them to go all in on the first attempt.
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I agree that for most refusing a challenge just isn't worth it, so we can probably put low CP amount for that, the question is more about norms and how much an Elder think is enough.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a new disciple, if he wants to challenge into the top rank of the year, need to pay their full CP. Most disciples coming in are going to be rank 950-850, and unless you are a high flyer taking huge risks and being an outlier you are basically going to take a couple years to get to the 700s.

"Having a rude awakening" makes perfect sense for the sect to do.
 
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