Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A) Shen Hu explicitly backed out because he didn't want to involve himself in high level stuff:



B) Ling Qi explicitly feared for her life? It was kinda part of the vote which mentioned it being dangerous to ask the King to spare Shen Hu as a boon (despite the fact the he was going to reward her), and the King itself mentioned that Ling Qi might break from the simple fact of being on the side of his hunt (which implies worse things to those on the receiving side of it).

EDIT: further proof of Ling Qi's fear



And no, this is still not the same thing. You keep equivocating doing a tribulation and being killed for some reason. Shen Hu had no chance against the King and Ling Qi knew it, she also thought that dying in the dream ment dying for real. Like, there is the repeated assumption that Ling Qi totally knew that this was a 'test' that could be won* with no permanent damage suffered that isn't sustained by the text at all.

* Which is wrong on two counts, it wasn't a test and Ling Qi didn't think it was.
First, I have made no assumption this was a test. As in, I don't believe this is a test. I don't know why you keep talking about it as if I thought it was a test. I don't believe that. My whole point is that I believe this isn't a test where there is a perfect outcome. dammit.

Second, not wanting to do the high level stuff... is exactly what I have been saying. He wanted to leave because he didn't want anything to do with the high level stuff, not because it was dangerous. He wants dangerous things.

All of what you have quoted likewise have nothing to do with Ling Qi fearing for Shen Hu's life, or fearing for her life itself. I am being confused, because it seems we are reading completely different passages there. Likewise, I would say it's just as dangerous to be part of a wild hunt than fighting against one, if not moreso.

But Ling Qi's problem isn't that he might have died. It's that in that situation, using the reasoning she actually used, she made a decision she feels reflects a problem with her. It's not the decision or its potential consequences that she regrets, but the thinking going into it.
Yes, and I completely agree with this. This has nothing to do with my point. My point is that in that situation, she also made a decision under the feeling that Shen Hu had no agency.

Basically, I am saying that she did two bad things, not one: the first was caving in to fear when it came to helping Shen Hu. The second was even wanting to help Shen Hu when he didn't want her help.

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[X] Disciples 815-825

Switching to this, because we want those 20YSS now and sliding down will be less important next month, even if we slide down. After all we are likely to challenge for the 775-800 turn 4.

Tbh, for people wanting to play it somewhat safer I'd almost be tempted to write in something like [] Disciples 810-820.

The thing is that challenging anyone below 820 is sort of not really worth it anyway because it's so close to the edge of the tier.
Wwoohoo approval voting.
[X] Disciples 810-820.
You want us to challenge idk #823 this month, and then #816 next month? Because that's the only way that reasoning works.
More like #823 this month, we slide back down for turn 4, in which we challenge 788.
 
Shower thought I had this morning.

@yrsillar what were the other paths that could have happened if, back in Serpent's Treasure, we didn't just say 'go on ahead Meizhen' when faced with the turtle?
 
"I do not believe your choices were in error," as Bai Meizhen spoke, Ling Qi looked up from her lap to glance at her friend. "Save entering the situation to begin with."

Meizhen was seated neatly beside her in the little audience box overseeing the challenge arena. She was glad that her friend had reminded her that she needed to be here today. She had lost track of time in cultivating, frustrated with the sluggish response of her qi as she tried to build toward the next stage. Of course, Meizhen had perceived her distress, and eventually, Ling Qi disclosed the events of the dream.

"I would have thought you'd agree with the Bloody Moon," Ling Qi muttered, resting her chin on her hand, only to wince a moment later. Those were ill thought out words.

Meizhen frowned at her and let out an irritated huff. "Cease that," she replied. "That creature is a great spirit, and its words hardly condemned you. That is not what is troubling you."
Man, Ling Qi is catty as fuck when she's facing something she doesn't want to face.
Meizhen's been working on her Composure I see.
"...Yeah," Ling Qi agreed. "Have you see people die like that before? I just… I can't…."

Her friend turned her eyes to the challenge area below, where the equipment was being set up, heavy writings desks and shelves of heavy tomes were being dragged out and arranged in artful symmetry. "I have," Bai Meizhen replied softly. "Observing records of battles is part of a young Bai's education, and I have seen the aftermath of towns lost. Grandfather did not coddle us in ensuring that we know our duty."

"Heh, are the Bai really not so heartless after all?" Ling Qi asked wryly, trying to put the images out of her head. "Well, compared to some other old clans," she muttered darkly.
Suffice to say that this will not be the last scene of carnage in a Cultivator's career.
Our job in essence, is to make sure it happens as little as possible.
Meizhen drummed her fingers on her seats armrest for a moment before answering. "We know our duty, even if most do not pretend to do more than pay lip service to certain aspects. Mortals and lesser cultivators are… like children. It is an unfit guardian who allows them to be dragged under by lake beasts."
Lake beasts huh? Say, @yrsillar how do the Bai do on waterbreathing in general? I figure hunting amphibious spirit beasts harassing the shores(where the bulk of the agriculture and trade are going to be on) would be a freaking nightmare without the ability to chase them to their nests.
"The metaphor breaks down," Meizhen admitted without pause. "And yet, the sort of deliberate slaughter you spoke of at the end is the purview of barbarians. I can offer you little save that you will become accustomed to such violence, this world is cruel. If it bothers you, it is your duty as a cultivator to prevent its occurrence in reality insofar as you are able."

"And now you sound like her," Ling Qi replied, looking up.

Meizhen met her gaze steadily. "The Bai are associated with that moon from time to time," she said dryly, with a touch of a smile. "More importantly, that is not the core of your trouble."
And indeed, the Bai's approach to feuds is one much lauded by the Bloody Moon.
"Since when are you so perceptive about this kind of thing," Ling Qi grumbled good naturedly.

"One must strive for excellence, when carving ones niche," Bai Meizhen replied primly. "You regret what you see as cowardice, do you not."
And it seems Meizhen had been studying up ever since she got that allowance to become the ambassador to the Cai.
Excellence in all things, so when the job requires that she be social, she went ahead and mastered being social.
Ling Qi didn't answer turning her face away. She hated what she had been made to do, she hated the nightmares it had brought her, but those horrible scenes were, as Meizhen and even the spirit had said, something that she could draw determination from. The hunt had been repellent and evil on every level. Whatever justifications had existed for it were nothing in the face of what it had wrought. She would strive to never see something like that again.

No, what really shook her was that she hadn't even tried, that for all that she claimed to have grown above sacrificing friends and allies for her own wellbeing, when faced with impossible odds, she hadn't even had the courage to try. It would be one thing, she thought, if she had at least tried to persuade that monster away from Shen Hu and been rebuffed, she would have just been angry and determined instead of… this. "How can you call it anything else?" She asked without looking up.

"There is nothing wrong with prioritizing one's own self," Meizhen replied, giving her a cool look. "So long as it is not ones absolute highest consideration. Filial duty, above all other things must come first, else we be no more than snapping, clawing beasts, but…" she shook her head. "Why does that trouble you so?"

"It just feels like I'm sliding backward," Ling Qi said quietly, clasping her hands. "I… would I have stood by and remained silent if it was you there?"

Meizhen fell silent as the figure of an Elder Ling Qi did not know blinked into view below, at the overseers table. "I trust you would not. Ling Qi, it seems to me that you must make it clear to yourself, where your limits lie, your trouble lies in a lack of surety."
And I would note, anything that Meizhen needed help for would have been even easier to rationalize with the excuse of "oh she can handle herself", because of Meizhen's power.

Good that Ling Qi isn't going to just paper it over with a pat answer.
Ling Qi did not reply, as the challenge was starting. Wanting a break from her churning thoughts, she turned her attention to the young looking Elder below. He was a squat, dour looking man, with thinning hair and a wide face, and he exuded a sort of….pressure that seemed to drain the very color from his surroundings. He wore plain silver robes and a ministers cap, and a pair of tiny spectacles, all worn with utterly perfect symmetry

"We now begin the challenge given by Disciple Eight Hundred and Ten, Cai Renxiang, to Disciple Seven Hundred Ninety Five, Liu Su," his voice was drier than a desert, and half as raspy. It seemed to absorb sound an attention alike, fixing Ling Qi's attention on the dour man and silencing the murmurs from the other viewing boxes and general stands. "In accordance with Sect Rules, Disciple Liu has chosen a match of administrative competence, in lieu of a personal duel."
...is that an Elder Bureaucramancer?

Also I'd take note. Liu Su(795) believes he cannot outfight Renxiang(810), and he probably saw her combat performance at the tournament. Otherwise he'd have gone facepunch.
This kind of suggests that up to 850 ranks are all going to leapfrog hard soon unless they choose bad challenges
Her attention returned to the Elder then, yanked back by his droning voice. "In the constructed scenario, both disciples have been given the task of reorganizing a county whose regulations have fallen out sync with modern imperial law. The disciples will then be tasked with organizing the county's human resources for military mobilization. Disciple performance will be judged based upon time, accuracy, and minimizing efficiency losses, as judged by I, Elder Meng. Seat yourselves and prepare to begin."

Ling Qi watched, bemused as the 'challenge' began. Liu Su was... Impressive, given the dull nature of the challenge she supposed. She felt the qi fluctuations as his domain expanded out, and paper and writing implements began to fly. Heavy reference tomes of law fluttered like overweight butterflies, their pages flipping rapidly as form after form was filled in by flying inkbrushes, while Liu Su sat with his hands folded neatly in his lap, his eyes half lidded and fluttering like a man on the verge of sleep.
Cai Renxiang on the other hand, was much less visibly impressive. Yet, the stern girl did not so much as glance at the tomes of reference she had been provided, and although she wielded only a single inkbrush, her hands were a literal blur that only resolved if Ling Qi focused quite hard. She was pretty sure she caught the sound of ink and paper sizzling, from the speed with which her liege wrote.
Here you can see:
-Liu Su
--Art devoted to bureaucracy or Academics allowing multitasking multiple forms and reading multiple books at the same time
--Needed to reference law books.

-Renxiang
--Knew the relevant laws and regulations by heart
--Using either raw cultivation speed or generalized acceleration art
She was still wrestling with that question when the match was called. Liu Su had finished a bit faster, but apparently his work could not match the quality of her liege's efficiency and total lack of errors.
...and she did it perfectly. Not too far behind his multitasking either.
Just how bloody fast was she writing?

Yeah argent mirror is about avoiding rationalizations and such. it doesn't prevent you from legitimately not knowing how you would react in a situation, and being distressed by that.

Like without argent mirror ling qi probably could have convinced herself by now that she definitely wouldn't cave if it was one of her 'real' friends at risk.
Yeesh, that's going to light a fire under her ass.
She can't make excuses to herself, she has to find the REAL answer to what she'd do, probably by doing it(coz thats how she rolls), to reaffirm her answer.
Not even the wriggle out of "I know this is a secret test of character so this is the correct answer" or "I can afford this easily, so I will give freely".

*glances at most recent demerit Ling Qi got, and how Sun also got a similar harrowing personal experience*

I'm not sure. I expect her to challenge for sure, but after Meizhen beat her and seeing actual hard proof such defeats can affect cultivation in the King of the Forest I've begun to theorize that she may be facing cultivation issues. There's also the whole... "way" (finger quotes) the challenges are set up, they don't feed her cultivation as well as the outer sect did. She'll probably be doing a lot more exploring to make up for that.


*shrug* We could, and probably would, but it's not exactly certain she wouldn't challenge Ling Qi anyway. We don't know a whole lot about her skillset, but we do know she's pretty good at the whole hunting thing which has some overlap with Ling Qi's stealth portfolio and she doesn't know for sure what Ling Qi would pick. Also it's not exactly impossible to bait Ling Qi into a specific challenge type.

Basically treat it as the idea she doesn't know what we know, and from her view point might have a chance in theory. That in theory is why we can't rule her out.

I'd note that its a bit of a face loss if Liling challenges Ling Qi.
She could still do it, but such a challenge is too high stakes for her to want to.
Instead its more likely she's going to be aggressively challenging her way up, and possibly having grudge matches with Meizhen.
Its more likely that Ji Rong would try.

[X] Disciples 802-814

Personal thought is that we want to challenge higher so we don't need to challenge as often...which means that people get to see less of our abilities on the way up.
Also based on how a senior disciple declined to facepunch Renxiang, I think we'd do fine if we pick right.
This year's new Inner Sect members are abnormally low ranked. Remember fresh graduates are supposed to be Peak Yellow.
Not the entire Top 6 being Full Greens.
 
So, I don't want to keep bothering @yrsillar about stuff like this, but this is probably the time to be asking these kinds of questions and the consequences could be far reaching.

Something that's been bothering me about how Challenge Research is working is that I thought it'd be more cooperative. We're CRX's vassal, and both of us are pretty closely aligned with Bai Meizhen and Gu Xiulan right now (not to mention people like Suyin and Shen Hu, who might not be looking to challenge.) All four of us are looking to make challenges this month, and expect to possibly defend from challengers below. Why aren't we sharing data?

Part of the reason I voted for 2 Challenge Research AP is I thought it was part of our responsibility as spymaster to get a solid lay of the land for the benefit of Cai Renxiang and our other allies, but with CRX already doing a challenge before we did any research to help (and we very well might have looked at 790-799) it seems like all four of us are just sort of going off on our own. I appreciate that the game mechanics don't necessarily mesh with my thinking, but it's a little verisimilitude breaking, especially considering what our primary job as vassal is supposed to be, and with all this discussion about information brokers bouncing around lately.

This even has some characterization concerns. For example sharing info with Shen Hu could help allay some of Ling Qi's guilt for hanging him out to dry in the Nightmare sequence.
 
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This is the narrative framing for the start of the next arc. To avoid the next bit just being a bunch of boring exposition lists and statblocks I'm going to have to weave it into interactions with other characters.

In Cai Renxiang's case, this is her getting her 'easy' jump out of the way, using knowledge she could scrape together from what her mother allowed her too connections wise. As people have noted this year was unusual specifically in its top three, so they're pretty much all due at least a minor increase in rank to normalize things.

I guess what I'm saying is. I have taken that into consideration.
 
Personal thought is that we want to challenge higher so we don't need to challenge as often...which means that people get to see less of our abilities on the way up.
I keep seeing people say this and really dislike this argument, as it would imply that fighting a higher rank disciple even if less often could be easy enough to not force us to use the whole span of our skills.
If discretion is what you really want it's much better to fight easier foes, even more often, as they would more readily allow you to not have to use all your skill and trump cards to overcome.
 
I keep seeing people say this and really dislike this argument, as it would imply that fighting a higher rank disciple even if less often could be easy enough to not force us to use the whole span of our skills.
If discretion is what you really want it's much better to fight easier foes, even more often, as they would more readily allow you to not have to use all your skill and trump cards to overcome.
Because challenges are not straight facepunch. Challenges can be narrow and test narrow capabilities.

Renxiang for instance, had just promoted without revealing anything except that she has some acceleration art and probably perfect memory. Also that she's a super bureaucrat

The more challenges, the more information on your secondary skills are exposed and thus the easier it becomes to research and challenge you.

This isn't the Outer Sect where pure punchyness is your primary competency tested. Even against a very strong foe you shouldn't be Able to show much of your skills
 
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[X] Disciples 815-825

Arkeus has a good point, playing it safe seems better here. I would like to aim closer to 815 than 820 to have a slide buffer next month, but we are still in a phase of preparation here, no reason to get overly ambitious just yet.


Lovely interaction with Meizhen, she is surprisingly good at helping LQ out here by just cutting through her deflections. With the usual lack of coddling, of course, but I think LQ needed to hear this.
 
I think I will add my point of view here.

I think we made a wrong choice, but arguably a necessary one, for the character as well as for the voters.

Ling Qi had a long run of mostly correct choices and good luck, and she, and the posters, were kind of used to success.
Now she was confronted with her fears, acted in a way she dislikes mostly out of fear, and has to find her self, her principles, while the action kicked off a mostly productive discussion in the thread.

This reminds me very much of an important decision of Nemo from "Now you feel like number none". The arc of getting the mask of Salar de Luna only to ultimately let it lie undisturbed out of compassion.
A lot of voters were quite put out by wasting so much time, but I feel that it was a key moment of growing, of taking responsibility for her actions, of acting instead of reacting.

And here is the parallel to Ling Qi: why did we/she act as we did?
I think, because our ideals and goals are not really well formed yet.

We feel responsibility towards her few friends, and Shen Hu is not yet one.
We would have asked for Bai to be spared, I am pretty sure.

We do not feel much responsibility towards people in general, letting them be slaughtered not really registered, at least in the fore field.
We kinda like spirits, but this was a good reminder that they can be very Erdrich.

All in all I very much welcome the current outcome, because it made Ling Qi and the posters think and question themselves. This is what I feel was needed.
 
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