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Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Colorado
Coming at it from the opposite way, why have chakra cultivators never noticed meridians? That has a simple possible answer: meridians start out clogged. Whatever spirit they learned their initial cultivation from gave them a different starting point, so they never seek out or clear their meridians.
Thinking about things further, I'd like to refine my position on Chakras/Dantians. Chakras in other media are often portrayed as gateways that need to be opened, Avatar comes to mind. I'd theorize that rather than cultivating all Chakras completely simultaneously, you open them in sequence, and when you've finished you are fully awakened. From that point on you cultivate them all simultaneously. I think that Chakras and Dantians are the same thing, but the 2 cultivation systems do 2 different things with them. Two things that apparently aren't mutually exclusive somehow? Imperials start at the first Dantian/Chakra and build a reservoir of energy within it. Then they carve out meridians to transform and manipulate that energy. Chakra cultivators 'open' their first Dantian/Chakra and move on to the others in sequence until they can cycle qi through their body like its one giant meridian and the qi gains different properties depending on whatever Chakra it passed through last? All speculation. Hope we get more Sun Lilling/Ji Rong interludes in the future, I want more information.
As for the third paragraph, I could be wrong, but how many worthless internet points shall we wager on this?
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
Insert Tally
All of them. Win the argument, win the internets.
[X] Let Hanyi speak her mind, she is technically the one receiving an offer.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just because the text doesn't use the phrase 'metaphysical appendages' doesn't mean that that isn't basically what they are. A dantain is a part of your anatomy which you use to manipulate spiritual and conceptual forces. It is metaphysical and it is an appendage. Chakras, beast bonds, souls, etc. all seem to be roughly the same thing. The core technology here is making yourself into something that can seize hold of and manipulate components of the spiritual world.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
I am going to have to strongly disagree with you about this. Chakras, beast bonds, souls, dantains are very much different things. This has been stated in the story. They are not all built on the same principles. You say that it is a technology, but I would argue that it's not. Instead I believe such metaphysical organs are changes created by outside forces, the gods of a region.
Lies to children IMO.
We've seen that you can have an ANYTHING meridian, if you made the arts to use them with. The Imperial Meridians are simply the set which works with most imperial arts.
The simple answer is that they aren't clogged, the "clog" is your being human, the opened channel is the extras humanstuff being stripped out in exchange for a coherent and optimized energy pipeline.
- Location
- Yes
[X] Politely refuse the request, reiterate your original offer
StarSerpent
Upjumped Peasant
- Location
- Cowtown, AB
[X] Let Hanyi speak her mind, she is technically the one receiving an offer.
This option's already winning by a large margin anyway, but it's the one I'd have gone for in the first place.
This option's already winning by a large margin anyway, but it's the one I'd have gone for in the first place.
Supporting this, somewhat are the letters of Zheng Lu specifically the one talking about the Seven Chakra.
Zheng Lu said that the Guru he described meridians to thought the process a type of self mutilation similar to what is practiced by the southern princes, who I think are referring to the White Sky. Which kinda tracks.
This is a kinda awkward vote. In a vacuum I don't have a preference for one approach over the other, but the framework of the situation as a vote introduces/reinforces(probably unintentionally) some long-term character dysfunction. Beyond the typical degree of dysfunction universal of cultivators, I mean. It's tricky to actually explain though, so bear with me please.
In a vacuum, the vote doesn't seem particularly impactful. The point where it starts to get fraught is the question of "Wait, why is this a vote again?" and the consequences of it being one. Players are, correctly I think, looking for a deeper context for the choice to have relevance to. Poster consensus, and again I can't disagree, is that the choice before us relates to our advanced insight "One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family." But the specifics of the situation make that a really awkward lens to approach decision-making from in an in-character perspective!
Like, first of all I'm 97% sure Ling Qi has 0 expectation that Hanyi might express a willingness to stay. That seems outside the realm of Ling Qi's purview at the moment. The leadup and vote options themselves would look differently if Ling Qi was balancing her reflective rejection against even the possibility that Hanyi might think differently here. So in-character, this is not a choice between taking point or letting Hanyi have the autonomy and freedom to decide her own fate. It's the choice between taking point and letting Hanyi take point, with the same intended endpoint.
On its own, this is an inoffensive choice. But when it's approached specifically in the context of adhere to our advanced insight or not, it takes on a troubling aspect. Taking charge to turn down a request from our hosts with minimal ruffled feathers while we're in the middle of important first-contact negotiations should not constitute a violation of the insight. That's just unreasonably restrictive. A literal reading of the insight doesn't sustain consistent concession to any individual's desires, even. The insight shouldn't require that Hanyi be let to go ahead, not in the context of the possibility of broader consequences. Why would her desire to speak up trump Ling Qi's desire to manage the situation, especially when it appears Ling Qi doesn't anticipate Hanyi disagreeing with her own position on the offer?
There's a bit of a recurring problem where pursuing our duties/objectives to Renxiang is put in conflict with our Domain. This isn't inherently a bad thing, it's even narratively necessary to realize the themes underpinning the cultivation system. But there's a particular awkwardness to the dichotomy consistently being framed the same way, with the tension being frame in terms of direct opposition. Progressing with our job is framed as compromising our fundamental principles. Prioritizing our Domain requires cutting corners or accepting risks to job duties we're directly in the middle of. This is an issue because when we're faced with these choices, and we err on the side of sticking to the guns of our insights/way/domain, which we usually do, we're entering into a self-fulfilling prophecy. By putting our duties second in favour of our insights, we're actively contextualizing those insights as being opposed to the pursuit of our duties. Choices meant to avoid conflict with our Domain end up cementing those conflicts as legitimate and, to the extent we avoid engaging when we spot the potential for conflict, irreconcilable.
We can't function as a diplomat if we're obliged to always let our family speak as they will. And that's not even compatible with observed behaviour anyway. See Ling Qi scolding Zhengui in the Winter shrine.
So, summarizing for a sec here, I think this vote is purposefully invoking Ling Qi's Insights. However, I also believe that the context of the situation does not lend itself to meaningful growth or exploration of our Insights.
Which does tie into narrative/gameplay issues too. If you look at the framing of the vote, the first option doesn't appear to offer much of anything. It's walking away from a potentially contentious situation, but what does it gain us? It's not likely to spur self-examination, because it's intentionally tying up the situation with a minimum of fuss. And if looked at from the view of the Insight that's being implicitly referenced, it's even potentially an anti-insight thing! I don't think it is, but the setup isn't favourable to it. Thesecond third vote looks more interesting and potentially rewarding in basically every way, in the context of a vote, but the rationale that leads to that conclusion explicitly doesn't make sense from an in-character perspective.
There's a disjoint between Ling Qi and the players, here, and it's really tough to bridge right off the bat. Based on her apparent beliefs at the moment, Ling Qi simply cannot hinge her choice here on the Insight in question without it being deeply unhealthy in the context of her role and her relation to her own Insights. It's fundamentally awkward for we, the players, to make a choice on the basis of Domain Insights that cannot be prosecuted via that perspective by the character in the proceeding update. To be clear, there's no problem with Ling Qi letting Hanyi speak; the only problem is if she makes that decision because she believes "One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family." demands it.
The vote that's going to win can setup a situation for the next vote where decisions can be sensibly approached from their relation to Ling Qi's insights, depending on what Hanyi says, but at this juncture it seems really premature.
In a vacuum, the vote doesn't seem particularly impactful. The point where it starts to get fraught is the question of "Wait, why is this a vote again?" and the consequences of it being one. Players are, correctly I think, looking for a deeper context for the choice to have relevance to. Poster consensus, and again I can't disagree, is that the choice before us relates to our advanced insight "One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family." But the specifics of the situation make that a really awkward lens to approach decision-making from in an in-character perspective!
Like, first of all I'm 97% sure Ling Qi has 0 expectation that Hanyi might express a willingness to stay. That seems outside the realm of Ling Qi's purview at the moment. The leadup and vote options themselves would look differently if Ling Qi was balancing her reflective rejection against even the possibility that Hanyi might think differently here. So in-character, this is not a choice between taking point or letting Hanyi have the autonomy and freedom to decide her own fate. It's the choice between taking point and letting Hanyi take point, with the same intended endpoint.
On its own, this is an inoffensive choice. But when it's approached specifically in the context of adhere to our advanced insight or not, it takes on a troubling aspect. Taking charge to turn down a request from our hosts with minimal ruffled feathers while we're in the middle of important first-contact negotiations should not constitute a violation of the insight. That's just unreasonably restrictive. A literal reading of the insight doesn't sustain consistent concession to any individual's desires, even. The insight shouldn't require that Hanyi be let to go ahead, not in the context of the possibility of broader consequences. Why would her desire to speak up trump Ling Qi's desire to manage the situation, especially when it appears Ling Qi doesn't anticipate Hanyi disagreeing with her own position on the offer?
There's a bit of a recurring problem where pursuing our duties/objectives to Renxiang is put in conflict with our Domain. This isn't inherently a bad thing, it's even narratively necessary to realize the themes underpinning the cultivation system. But there's a particular awkwardness to the dichotomy consistently being framed the same way, with the tension being frame in terms of direct opposition. Progressing with our job is framed as compromising our fundamental principles. Prioritizing our Domain requires cutting corners or accepting risks to job duties we're directly in the middle of. This is an issue because when we're faced with these choices, and we err on the side of sticking to the guns of our insights/way/domain, which we usually do, we're entering into a self-fulfilling prophecy. By putting our duties second in favour of our insights, we're actively contextualizing those insights as being opposed to the pursuit of our duties. Choices meant to avoid conflict with our Domain end up cementing those conflicts as legitimate and, to the extent we avoid engaging when we spot the potential for conflict, irreconcilable.
We can't function as a diplomat if we're obliged to always let our family speak as they will. And that's not even compatible with observed behaviour anyway. See Ling Qi scolding Zhengui in the Winter shrine.
So, summarizing for a sec here, I think this vote is purposefully invoking Ling Qi's Insights. However, I also believe that the context of the situation does not lend itself to meaningful growth or exploration of our Insights.
Which does tie into narrative/gameplay issues too. If you look at the framing of the vote, the first option doesn't appear to offer much of anything. It's walking away from a potentially contentious situation, but what does it gain us? It's not likely to spur self-examination, because it's intentionally tying up the situation with a minimum of fuss. And if looked at from the view of the Insight that's being implicitly referenced, it's even potentially an anti-insight thing! I don't think it is, but the setup isn't favourable to it. The
There's a disjoint between Ling Qi and the players, here, and it's really tough to bridge right off the bat. Based on her apparent beliefs at the moment, Ling Qi simply cannot hinge her choice here on the Insight in question without it being deeply unhealthy in the context of her role and her relation to her own Insights. It's fundamentally awkward for we, the players, to make a choice on the basis of Domain Insights that cannot be prosecuted via that perspective by the character in the proceeding update. To be clear, there's no problem with Ling Qi letting Hanyi speak; the only problem is if she makes that decision because she believes "One person's desires cannot, alone make a home nor a family." demands it.
The vote that's going to win can setup a situation for the next vote where decisions can be sensibly approached from their relation to Ling Qi's insights, depending on what Hanyi says, but at this juncture it seems really premature.
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People have been consistently invoking our advanced insight but there is another relevant insight, namely:
"Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end."
This insight has been one that LQ repeatedly has trouble with, as she takes a very selfish view of it. The idea that it also applies to her friends and family is anathema to her. That's very, very dangerous for her in the long term and she needs to recognize that her allies can take risks as well, potentially even to her own benefit. At the same time we do have a responsibility to keep Hanyi in particular safe, so she might not be a good person to explore that with.
Secondly, while the negotiations are indeed at risk here, it is not from the the position of our hosts. Rather, Ling Qi is viscerally upset by the Voice's request and Jaromila appears to me to be concerned that the Voice just singlehandedly destroyed the negotiations. Remember, we intentionally make our feelings on things extremely obvious. We have built our social toolkit around such radical honesty and transparency, though we can certainly hide things such as with the spiders. One of the better justifications for LQ speaking up immediately is to let them know that, while indeed mortally offended, LQ is not going to abandon the talks because of it. Letting Hanyi speak first is potentially leaving Jaromila to twist in the breeze for a little while.
Also Zhengui just shouted that he objects and I'm pretty sure they can hear him (especially the Voice), so even if we did hide our feelings it would still be obvious to everyone that this is a big deal. Letting them hear Hanyi's thoughts helps them more fully understand our position anyway, so might well be a better thing for the negotiations going forward despite the initial confusion.
Thirdly, if Hanyi truly goes off the rails, we have a technique that lets us pretty effortlessly interject and get things back on track. Giving her a frankly unreasonable amount of responsibility and freedom also makes a lot of sense for someone who, at Hanyi's mental age, had been living on the streets with her very life at stake on her decisions. We have also given Hanyi a great deal of freedom in the past, to the point where we didn't notice that she had been harassing a fellow disciple. This is perhaps not the healthiest way to parent Hanyi but giving her too much freedom isn't out of character for their relationship.
We've also been pushing Hanyi to develop her own identity, which expressing her own opinions would help with, so maybe it would actually be good for her to talk here.
"Though a path might be hard and lonely, it has worth if you can present something of beauty to those you care for at the end."
This insight has been one that LQ repeatedly has trouble with, as she takes a very selfish view of it. The idea that it also applies to her friends and family is anathema to her. That's very, very dangerous for her in the long term and she needs to recognize that her allies can take risks as well, potentially even to her own benefit. At the same time we do have a responsibility to keep Hanyi in particular safe, so she might not be a good person to explore that with.
Secondly, while the negotiations are indeed at risk here, it is not from the the position of our hosts. Rather, Ling Qi is viscerally upset by the Voice's request and Jaromila appears to me to be concerned that the Voice just singlehandedly destroyed the negotiations. Remember, we intentionally make our feelings on things extremely obvious. We have built our social toolkit around such radical honesty and transparency, though we can certainly hide things such as with the spiders. One of the better justifications for LQ speaking up immediately is to let them know that, while indeed mortally offended, LQ is not going to abandon the talks because of it. Letting Hanyi speak first is potentially leaving Jaromila to twist in the breeze for a little while.
Also Zhengui just shouted that he objects and I'm pretty sure they can hear him (especially the Voice), so even if we did hide our feelings it would still be obvious to everyone that this is a big deal. Letting them hear Hanyi's thoughts helps them more fully understand our position anyway, so might well be a better thing for the negotiations going forward despite the initial confusion.
Thirdly, if Hanyi truly goes off the rails, we have a technique that lets us pretty effortlessly interject and get things back on track. Giving her a frankly unreasonable amount of responsibility and freedom also makes a lot of sense for someone who, at Hanyi's mental age, had been living on the streets with her very life at stake on her decisions. We have also given Hanyi a great deal of freedom in the past, to the point where we didn't notice that she had been harassing a fellow disciple. This is perhaps not the healthiest way to parent Hanyi but giving her too much freedom isn't out of character for their relationship.
We've also been pushing Hanyi to develop her own identity, which expressing her own opinions would help with, so maybe it would actually be good for her to talk here.
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Jaromila's frown is almost certainly directly related to Ling Qi's immediately following thoughts:
Ling Qi believes the frown was because the Voice's request, if granted, would necessarily materially affect the negotiations between the two parties because the process of granting the request requires mutual material collaboration that we had not yet actually come to any agreement towards, however likely it may have been. Agreeing to the Voice's request intrinsically steps on Jaromila's toes in her temporal role as Emissary and that's not quite ideal. A grey area, or loophole, stumbled across unintentionally.
Sincere Negotiator is explicitly not about total transparency in dealings. Her insight on breaking through to the current plateau of her understanding was that good faith is not incompatible with keeping one's cards close and even using the other party's inability to see those cards to personal advantage.
Internal spirit communication is inaudible externally absent active peaking, which we have no reason to expect the Voice is engaging in. Zhengui wasn't audible.
Ling Qi believes the frown was because the Voice's request, if granted, would necessarily materially affect the negotiations between the two parties because the process of granting the request requires mutual material collaboration that we had not yet actually come to any agreement towards, however likely it may have been. Agreeing to the Voice's request intrinsically steps on Jaromila's toes in her temporal role as Emissary and that's not quite ideal. A grey area, or loophole, stumbled across unintentionally.
Sincere Negotiator is explicitly not about total transparency in dealings. Her insight on breaking through to the current plateau of her understanding was that good faith is not incompatible with keeping one's cards close and even using the other party's inability to see those cards to personal advantage.
Internal spirit communication is inaudible externally absent active peaking, which we have no reason to expect the Voice is engaging in. Zhengui wasn't audible.
Who said anything about Sincere Negotiator requiring it? I'm talking about this:
Carefree Mantle: C
Duration: Long
It is not enough to merely follow the basic exercises of this art, to learn tricks of speaking and the use of humor as a smoothing and contrasting element in their rhetoric. To truly emulate the muse, one must defy certain ingrained social behaviors and learn to wear their emotion, their intent, their very self as a cloak. Though such openness can seem frightening to the neophyte, few methods are superior in conveying the sincerity of your intent. While active, the user receives a large bonus to speech tests when speaking honestly or attempting to convince others of their sincerity, and a similar bonus to poise and empathy tests
We have one of our major social arts be about wearing our heart on our sleeve. To choose not to use that approach would be similar to deciding not to use BKSD in a duel: it's nothing short of intentional self-sabotage.
The more tricksy parts of Sincere Negotiator are for people we do not trust and are much more likely to lead to hurt feelings. It's essentially like the moral of the story Bao Qian told us about the mine: if the relationship is going to continue for any significant length of time then its important for both sides to be fully honest with each other. Since we are hoping for this to be a very long relationship indeed, this makes that transparency of utmost importance.
As I said, we don't need to be transparent in all our dealings but it remains the default that we sometimes depart from. Here there's no reason to depart from said default and plenty of reasons not to.
- Location
- UK
[X] Let Hanyi speak her mind, she is technically the one receiving an offer.