Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
That seems fine to me. The thing about achievement and growth is that it doesn't happen in a single moment. All of our growth has generally been incremental, or had it's seeds planted in earlier actions, and we've fought tooth and nail to keep it that way.

On the outside, Ling Qi's growth seems easy. That's because we made it easy. The fact that it's not dramatic is an achievement, not a disappointment, at least from my view.
 
That seems fine to me. The thing about achievement and growth is that it doesn't happen in a single moment. All of our growth has generally been incremental, or had it's seeds planted in earlier actions, and we've fought tooth and nail to keep it that way.

On the outside, Ling Qi's growth seems easy. That's because we made it easy. The fact that it's not dramatic is an achievement, not a disappointment, at least from my view.
I would say yes and no. From a gameplaying perspective, yes. It seeming easy is our reward for good play and grinding.

From a story perspective though? It just makes it weak. It removes its emotional weight and meaning. Taken too far, and you've just got one of those boring protagonists that never really has to struggle and always wins (and no, I'm not saying that's what it's like, but it is the potential end state).

~~~
Some more thoughts: one of the things that was really good about our first year was that we started from nothing. We had no cultivation. We had no arts. Other people could throw fireballs and we couldn't do shit. This clearly highlights our accomplishments, and makes it easy to see what we achieved in that year. It also made it very visible at the start how far behind we were, and the great obstacles that we were going to have to overcome (even if, with our talent, we kinda ended up pushing into the upper tier 3 months in).

But what about the Inner Sect? Right now it's really not clear what, exactly, our challenge is, or how hard it is. What is the level that we have to attain? How ridiculously far above our current status is it?

Right now all we've got is some vague instructions, and Ling Qi's feelings of "sure, I can do that, it'll be easy" - which doesn't really create a lot of tension, especially coming off our great success last year. If this was a manga or something, and they were trying to hype things up a bit more and make it seem like more of a challenge we'd probably get an arc sometime soon where we get to see, idk, a recent high flier in the 500s going all out. Then we could be all "holy shit they're so strong" and people would talk about how they're really talented and it took them four years to reach that level or something. Then the fact that we have to achieve that in two years would be felt to be the insane challenge it is.

Right now though I'm not really feeling that in story.
 
I would say yes and no. From a gameplaying perspective, yes. It seeming easy is our reward for good play and grinding.

From a story perspective though? It just makes it weak. It removes its emotional weight and meaning. Taken too far, and you've just got one of those boring protagonists that never really has to struggle and always wins (and no, I'm not saying that's what it's like, but it is the potential end state).

~~~
Some more thoughts: one of the things that was really good about our first year was that we started from nothing. We had no cultivation. We had no arts. Other people could throw fireballs and we couldn't do shit. This clearly highlights our accomplishments, and makes it easy to see what we achieved in that year. It also made it very visible at the start how far behind we were, and the great obstacles that we were going to have to overcome (even if, with our talent, we kinda ended up pushing into the upper tier 3 months in).

But what about the Inner Sect? Right now it's really not clear what, exactly, our challenge is, or how hard it is. What is the level that we have to attain? How ridiculously far above our current status is it?

Right now all we've got is some vague instructions, and Ling Qi's feelings of "sure, I can do that, it'll be easy" - which doesn't really create a lot of tension, especially coming off our great success last year. If this was a manga or something, and they were trying to hype things up a bit more and make it seem like more of a challenge we'd probably get an arc sometime soon where we get to see, idk, a recent high flier in the 500s going all out. Then we could be all "holy shit they're so strong" and people would talk about how they're really talented and it took them four years to reach that level or something. Then the fact that we have to achieve that in two years would be felt to be the insane challenge it is.

Right now though I'm not really feeling that in story.
I think part of the weight is supposed to come from the fact that Shenhua was the one to give it, so there's a Sword of Damocles effect, and the... flippant way she stated it can be read as giving off a "I expect you to fail, so try your best to please me oh ho."


There's also tension in wondering "Is Gan going to make, is X and Y and Z'ed going to come back". Plus with the Challenge data coming in, that information black out about what's "normal" or "expected" from the upper reaches of the 800s, and some of the 700s is going to evaporate.
 
There's also tension in wondering "Is Gan going to make, is X and Y and Z'ed going to come back". Plus with the Challenge data coming in, that information black out about what's "normal" or "expected" from the upper reaches of the 800s, and some of the 700s is going to evaporate.
Yeah, that should help.

I kinda want us to lose tbh. Get a good shounen training to overcome our opponent arc in there.

This is actually a great time for us to lose (narratively anyway). Right now we have some significant qualitative holes in our build in terms of our ability to leverage stealth and dispel resistance. This gives us a way to lose, and then a way for us to win when we go off and get our new arts to patch those holes.

(it would also be a decent ego deflation and way of showing that the Inner Sect isn't going to be as easy as the Outer)
 
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Yeah, that should help.

I kinda want us to lose tbh. Get a good shounen training to overcome our opponent arc in there.

This is actually a great time for us to lose (narratively anyway). Right now we have some significant qualitative holes in our build in terms of our ability to leverage stealth and dispel resistance. This gives us a way to lose, and then a way for us to win when we go off and get our new arts to patch those holes.

(it would also be a decent ego deflation and way of showing that the Inner Sect isn't going to be as easy as the Outer)

So you want a story rather than a quest?
 
Some idle ponderings... I was recently watching this video discussing Dragonball GT, and something he said prompted me to think about FoD. He describes the core theme and appeal of Dragonball as "growth through struggle". It's that intensity of striving against the impossible, to grow and overcome one's limits, that creates much of the emotional draw of the story.

Such themes are of course ubiquitous throughout shounen to varying degrees, and would seem to have significant relevance to xianxia and the story here as well. Anyway, I was pondering over the application of these ideas in the story so far, and my question would be: are they strongly shown in the story?

Certainly Ling Qi showed significant growth over the course of FoD, and that was shown very well. However, thinking about the narrative itself I kind of feel like that sense of struggle and striving was, perhaps, not shown as strongly. Much of the struggle that we as the questers experience is outside the writing itself. The emotional struggles of optimising our cultivation schedule and maintaining that breakneck pace don't necessarily come through in the narrative, and in many ways Ling Qi's growth comes off as kind of easy and handed to her through good luck.

A lot of the cultivation was, of course, also pushed off screen as we progressed. Part of the problem here perhaps the quest structure. From a writing standpoint it wouldn't really work if everything was constant cultivation all the time. It would get boring and lose meaning. At the same time though, without showing the challenges of training, and the work that goes into it, that sense of growth perhaps loses some of its emotional weight. It doesn't feel as much like Ling Qi has overcome great obstacles.

Thoughts?
Growth through struggle can work as a base concept for a literature piece, but not simply by itself.
Heck, even in the base concept you have the idea of possible failure. Probable and expected failure even since the struggle should be real.
Having a protag simply go to the most dangerous option, "struggle", and then always get rewarded for it is not good for anyone's SoD.
 
Some idle ponderings... I was recently watching this video discussing Dragonball GT, and something he said prompted me to think about FoD. He describes the core theme and appeal of Dragonball as "growth through struggle". It's that intensity of striving against the impossible, to grow and overcome one's limits, that creates much of the emotional draw of the story.

Such themes are of course ubiquitous throughout shounen to varying degrees, and would seem to have significant relevance to xianxia and the story here as well. Anyway, I was pondering over the application of these ideas in the story so far, and my question would be: are they strongly shown in the story?

Certainly Ling Qi showed significant growth over the course of FoD, and that was shown very well. However, thinking about the narrative itself I kind of feel like that sense of struggle and striving was, perhaps, not shown as strongly. Much of the struggle that we as the questers experience is outside the writing itself. The emotional struggles of optimising our cultivation schedule and maintaining that breakneck pace don't necessarily come through in the narrative, and in many ways Ling Qi's growth comes off as kind of easy and handed to her through good luck.

A lot of the cultivation was, of course, also pushed off screen as we progressed. Part of the problem here perhaps the quest structure. From a writing standpoint it wouldn't really work if everything was constant cultivation all the time. It would get boring and lose meaning. At the same time though, without showing the challenges of training, and the work that goes into it, that sense of growth perhaps loses some of its emotional weight. It doesn't feel as much like Ling Qi has overcome great obstacles.

Thoughts?

I agree, this post is stirring a lot of previously held thoughts up to the surface.

For me, Qi's narrative was at its strongest in the opening months of the story, when Qi is still weak and scrabbling up the power ladder as fast as she can. She was always making do with the scraps of power she'd obtained. She was growing quickly, but everyone else had started long ago. Zhou's Trial is something I will always remember because she succeeded through her intelligence and practicality. She out-tactician'd a young scion because she wasn't concerned with honor or tradition, she only wanted to win, and saw the winning solution that arguably clinched the first phase. She stole her second token from that disciple through a clever deception, playing on her peer's arrogant dismissal of the mortals beneath him, and curbstomped him before he could even use his superior power. She gained her final token both by literally confronting the ghosts of her past and moving past it, and also acting the Noble and politely entreating the water spirit to obtain it, highlighting her transition from mortal street rat to a true Cultivator. And then, of course, she was handed an automatic victory through the whims of the powerful spirit she has caught the attention of, thrusting her into the spotlight and rendering it impossible to hide as she always has. Then the aftermath reveals the magnitude of the gift she was just handed for free.

All that shit was deeply character driven and thematic as hell. It showed Qi both demonstrating significant character growth, and demonstrating what makes her unique beyond any raw talent she may have. That is Ling Qi at her absolute finest.

Don't get me wrong, Qi's "Life Is Unfair" curbstomp of Chu Song was a very excellent way of demonstrating just how strong she has become. But it just isn't as compelling as her scrappy underdog narrative, and it's probably something we'll never get back.

...

Err, onto the whole quest format thing, I do kinda wish the sheer optimization prowess of the vote-smiths to carve the fastest way to power was better reflected onto Qi's character. Because it doesn't come across like Qi's a very careful planner that trains with deliberate intent. Kinda feels like she's on autopilot, given how that's how the narrative treats her actual cultivation. Erebeal is definitely correct in saying that the entire narrative of Qi's scheduling is largely absent from the actual text, and it's the one that many people are very invested in (hence why the months before the tournament were filled with debate even though there was barely anything going on narratively). Kinda why I sometimes feel this urge to explain to the RR readers what exactly was going on behind the scenes, because there's so much that they simply will never see in that format.
 
Certainly Ling Qi showed significant growth over the course of FoD, and that was shown very well. However, thinking about the narrative itself I kind of feel like that sense of struggle and striving was, perhaps, not shown as strongly. Much of the struggle that we as the questers experience is outside the writing itself. The emotional struggles of optimising our cultivation schedule and maintaining that breakneck pace don't necessarily come through in the narrative, and in many ways Ling Qi's growth comes off as kind of easy and handed to her through good luck.
Ling Qi wound up in an awkward spot power-level wise over the last month or two. The entire narrative focus was on the tournament, but Ling Qi's cultivation was at a point where her actual bottom line goal of promotion was pretty much in the bag. The stretch goal that we would have been super hyped to pull off, beating Sun Liling, was impossible. There was some tension around beating Ji Rong, but in the end it wasn't that important and it wasn't in that much doubt (dude was choked on resources for an extended period of time, stuck on fortress duty for an extended period of time, and actually frozen in time for a while; during that time Ling Qi was swimming in Caibux and Renshubux and squeezed value out of every action).

So that was a big chunk of recent quest time building up to a dud of a climax, narratively speaking. yrsillar did a nice job spicing things up with all of the socializing. Still, though, no story that wanted you to care about a promotion tournament would ever have the main character so obviously set up to get a promotion.

Right now we don't have a pressing three month goal, six month goal, or definite Inner Sect antagonist. I expect these problems will mostly go away once challenge season starts. We're also due, as others have noted, to see somebody in the 500s showing off to remind us there's a heaven beyond the heavens.
 
Ling Qi wound up in an awkward spot power-level wise over the last month or two. The entire narrative focus was on the tournament, but Ling Qi's cultivation was at a point where her actual bottom line goal of promotion was pretty much in the bag. The stretch goal that we would have been super hyped to pull off, beating Sun Liling, was impossible. There was some tension around beating Ji Rong, but in the end it wasn't that important and it wasn't in that much doubt (dude was choked on resources for an extended period of time, stuck on fortress duty for an extended period of time, and actually frozen in time for a while; during that time Ling Qi was swimming in Caibux and Renshubux and squeezed value out of every action).
Yeah, let's be honest here we got way stronger than we really should have been able to get. Us being more Xiulan level, or just having finished our breakthrough before the tournament, would have made for more reasonable progression and stronger drama.

Edit:
I do think though that from our perspective that stressful training and trying to make sure we were as strong possible did come through. It's just that that was all in the plan votes and not so much in the actual story.
 
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Yeah, let's be honest here we got way stronger than we really should have been able to get. Us being more Xiulan level, or just having finished our breakthrough before the tournament, would have made for more reasonable progression and stronger drama.
Hard to do questwise though, because that would have meant either that we messed up or that a 'perfect run' would still have given us good odds to fail the main arc of the prologue, which I think is outside the bound of expectation for this particular quest (getting to inner sect is supposed to be the easy part).

What happened was the more interesting "Ling Qi is much stronger cultivation wise than needed but has her build all over the place up because she is going blind and can't slow down" where we were a very strong early green but lacking in coherence.

Still, it did mean we got a narrative arc at the end where the real 'final fight' was against someone who should have had all our problems (no familial arts, lack of ressources) as well as problems we didn't have (being on time out for 6+ turns), which caused narrative issues of "losing against Ji Rong would have been deeply unsatisfying on narrative AND meta reasons".

Basically, I am saying we should have fought our second match against Kang Zihao or some such, not against 'the other peasant'. It would have closed to narrative story of 'catching up and surpassing the scions" rather than "Not doing worse than someone with worse ressource and less time but the same background and lack of backing".
 
Yeah, let's be honest here we got way stronger than we really should have been able to get. Us being more Xiulan level, or just having finished our breakthrough before the tournament, would have made for more reasonable progression and stronger drama.

Edit:
I do think though that from our perspective that stressful training and trying to make sure we were as strong possible did come through. It's just that that was all in the plan votes and not so much in the actual story.
It would also have been fine if we were nipping on the heels of the Cai/Bai/Sun trio so there was some real drama in the Sun fight.

The quest format means that OOC we are always anxious to optimize for Ling Qi all the time. So there's always that, I guess you'd call it, meta-narrative tension. That pretty much exists in any quest where you have meaningful choices. The story level narrative tension is what took the first nine months of this quest to the next level, and I believe is what's been missing lately.
 
Hard to do questwise though, because that would have meant either that we messed up or that a 'perfect run' would still have given us good odds to fail the main arc of the prologue, which I think is outside the bound of expectation for this particular quest (getting to inner sect is supposed to be the easy part).
Well, from a story perspective yes we should obviously not fail to get into the Inner Sect - but at the same time I would suggest that we should be getting in by the skin of our teeth so it's more dramatic and meaningful rather than us just being ridiculous.

... which of course is hard to make work reliably with the game mechanics, so yrsillar kinda needed to make sure we couldn't lose the prelims or first round with bad rolls.
 
Well, from a story perspective yes we should obviously not fail to get into the Inner Sect - but at the same time I would suggest that we should be getting in by the skin of our teeth so it's more dramatic and meaningful rather than us just being ridiculous.

... which of course is hard to make work reliably with the game mechanics, so yrsillar kinda needed to make sure we couldn't lose the prelims or first round with bad rolls.
Well, not just hard to make work reliably, but it also means there can't be a 'good run' for the first year quest. By that, I mean let's take the following possibilities:
  • bad run
  • mediocre rune
  • decent run
  • good run
  • great run
I don't have 'horrible run' because Yrs is too nice. Basically, I am saying that if the only 'pass' was Great Run, it means that Yrs is asking the questers to be exceptional to even have a chance. If it is not, however, it means that a 'good run' is enough to be more than safe.

Incidentally, a 'perfect run' would probably have needed to have melee/range specialist with coherent build (we didn't have that).
 
... which of course is hard to make work reliably with the game mechanics, so yrsillar kinda needed to make sure we couldn't lose the prelims or first round with bad rolls.
No it's not. The nature of a dice pool system means that regression towards the mean will compensate for wild luck in both directions. So all yrsillar needed to do is make the system have a lower base average, and give smaller bonuses (stuff like +1 to the die roll of the first 10 dice, which is crazy good, as long as those 10 dice all fall just under success; if they don't then it's useless). Like just to point it out, as QM he had massive control over events and availability, and could have had easily made characters like Suyin less available due to their own "plotlines", essentially cutting down the number of bonus dice provided.

Hell if you want to go super extreme, it's possible to enforce a timeline in a quest using a dicepool system, by having events that boost or push down the character as needed to maintain whatever plot critical events.

Game and mechanism design can do a lot if you're willing to spend the time to think through how to do a thing.
 
No it's not. The nature of a dice pool system means that regression towards the mean will compensate for wild luck in both directions. So all yrsillar needed to do is make the system have a lower base average, and give smaller bonuses (stuff like +1 to the die roll of the first 10 dice, which is crazy good, as long as those 10 dice all fall just under success; if they don't then it's useless). Like just to point it out, as QM he had massive control over events and availability, and could have had easily made characters like Suyin less available due to their own "plotlines", essentially cutting down the number of bonus dice provided.
I'm talking about the actual fights here. You'll note that he carefully made sure that we could basically hard counter Shen Hu and Chu Song, so we were never really in any danger of losing.

An actually close fight would have the problem of easily being able to be swung by bad rolls, which makes controlling the narrative hard.
 
But you don't deny you'd prefer more story than game?

What on earth is your point here? Without a compelling narrative drive behind it the game aspect falls flat on its face.

@Erebeal makes good points about the negative impacts of game format (specifically, turn based structure) on narrative structure, and the loss of narrative tension moving into the second thread. This is something that I think will be especially evident with the conversion to pure story over on RR - the meta-struggle of the thread's meticulous cultivation planning, and that sense of desperation to become stronger are things that I don't think are adequately represented in Ling Qi's character or the narrative.
 
Well, from a story perspective yes we should obviously not fail to get into the Inner Sect - but at the same time I would suggest that we should be getting in by the skin of our teeth so it's more dramatic and meaningful rather than us just being ridiculous.

... which of course is hard to make work reliably with the game mechanics, so yrsillar kinda needed to make sure we couldn't lose the prelims or first round with bad rolls.
I'd say Ling Qi doesn't need to get in by the skin of her teeth in all honesty, though it'd work better if her working her arse off was actually shown in the months leading up to the tournament.

Ideally, if the readers are invested in the side characters there should at least be narrative tension when Gan loses/Xiulan fights Wen Ai.
 
Hmm. One aspect, I think, that would help is if Ling Qi got poked more often. Disrupted, but in little ways. Her work ethic is insane but we tend not to see it due to a combination of it not seeming remarkable to the person with it and there being little narrative reason for it to come up in highlighting contexts.

Of course, in the Inner Sect and with our cohort in particular, there's definitely a strong lean towards workaholism, so not sure how easily this would be accomplished. Getting harassed by older Disciples might wear thin. But then again, wouldn't that be the point? Wen Cao already has my pity....
 
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I would say yes and no. From a gameplaying perspective, yes. It seeming easy is our reward for good play and grinding.

From a story perspective though? It just makes it weak. It removes its emotional weight and meaning. Taken too far, and you've just got one of those boring protagonists that never really has to struggle and always wins (and no, I'm not saying that's what it's like, but it is the potential end state).

~~~
Some more thoughts: one of the things that was really good about our first year was that we started from nothing. We had no cultivation. We had no arts. Other people could throw fireballs and we couldn't do shit. This clearly highlights our accomplishments, and makes it easy to see what we achieved in that year. It also made it very visible at the start how far behind we were, and the great obstacles that we were going to have to overcome (even if, with our talent, we kinda ended up pushing into the upper tier 3 months in).

But what about the Inner Sect? Right now it's really not clear what, exactly, our challenge is, or how hard it is. What is the level that we have to attain? How ridiculously far above our current status is it?

Right now all we've got is some vague instructions, and Ling Qi's feelings of "sure, I can do that, it'll be easy" - which doesn't really create a lot of tension, especially coming off our great success last year. If this was a manga or something, and they were trying to hype things up a bit more and make it seem like more of a challenge we'd probably get an arc sometime soon where we get to see, idk, a recent high flier in the 500s going all out. Then we could be all "holy shit they're so strong" and people would talk about how they're really talented and it took them four years to reach that level or something. Then the fact that we have to achieve that in two years would be felt to be the insane challenge it is.

Right now though I'm not really feeling that in story.
I mean to be fair we are basically at chapter 2 of a brand new story. Those critques you have are fair but tension requires build up. We are all riding high off of a very successful first book. However expecting tensions to raise to that point right away is a little unfair to the author. Right now we are in a period of releasing that tension. We won we don't have to go straight back to that high tension will we won't we of last thread.

This book started off with a slice of life arc and I think that is fine. We will get that overarching story wide tension. Yrs is a great author. I am confident that he understands the flow of stories and has a plan for this new book.

The periodical update does hurt though. In a published book you can just breeze through these slow sections with little thought because you have the entire book. Here we are waiting for the next update.
 
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As a quest, FoD is fantastic. As a story, there are some major holes. Some are due to the format of quest updating vs story writing (as a QM you start losing details - e.g.: Li Suyin mentions inviting Ling Qi on an expedition at the end of Forge of Destiny and then acts surprised when Ling Qi wants to come along during Threads of Destiny - like, Li, you literally mentioned this last week, don't act so surprised when Ling Qi wants to come along), but others are due to the fact that minmaxing and questing brings about some weird story results.

Ling Qi having such fantastic reserves of qi is pretty much first commented upon by CRX, I think when they go flying together: 'good, you're confident in your reserves' but I'm pretty sure it comes across as something distinctly weird in-story when Shen Hu says: 'wow, you just never run out of qi, do you?' because Ling Qi has literally never bothered to cultivate her qi even once. It's all down to her medicine and pill use and no one else has really noticed that her reserves are as enormous as they are.

What would actually make more sense is if she was just born with ginormous reserves or happened to have some sort of trait that allowed her to really take advantage of medicinal energy or if, idk, the fact that she had bonded to a super special spirit beast known for its overwhelming staying power supercharged her ability to cultivate qi. You... kind of get away with it by saying that Ling Qi just never stops cultivating, but at a certain point that excuse gets a little weak. It just doesn't make sense because the reality is there is an overmind directing her medicine use and training schedule to be optimized.

A better story would probably have her qi reserves be low relative to her power. Why? Because her style doesn't actually require a lot of qi. She uses arts to drain qi and her signature offensive art is self-sustaining and requires little enough of it. Having an actual 'well, that's kind of ridiculous' reserve of qi to top that off... it's kind of extraneous. Why keep it? It's the sort of doubling up on strengths that antagonists generally get.

Now if Ling Qi made it an explicit goal... maybe. But she didn't. It kinda just happened that way.

There's a lot of stuff like that. Why does Ling Qi pick up and then just stop using her bow? Like what is that trying to communicate, story-wise? What's the theme? Same with her throwing knives that just kind of disappear never to re-appear. She never really used the capstone to her wind art despite being described in-text. And why did she go exactly once to that creepy treasure island..... and just never go back? Why was there this huge push to grab all the secret argent arts from the various trials... and then she just kind of lost interest in them? Why did we try all of once to build our little spy skeletons and then, despite being hired to be a spy-mistress, never actually employ them to do spy-work? Wait, how did we get good enough to build our little spy skeletons in the first place? We didn't spend a lot of time on formations... and why was that awesome skeleton mech mentioned once and then never again?

There are too many story hooks because this is a quest, not a story.

The story of FoD and now ToD is kind of being defeated by the open, sandbox nature of its own gameplay. Every other characters have a much more coherent build and story because they didn't go : OH THAT LOOKS NEAT at everything they saw. It probably would have made for a much better story if Ling Qi... weren't actually as lucky as she was. If, there were, say, months of a slow, grinding slog that could be skipped over with a simple:


-------------


And then it was winter.


--------------


Boom! The parts where nothing happen you skip over and briefly summarize because story is king, not gameplay, but priorities are reversed in a quest. Every week has to be somewhat interesting because that's the format.

Idk what the solution is besides 'don't write a quest, write a story,' but if you want a story with this amount of freedom and resolution, you are going to have to acknowledge that there will be tradeoffs.

Tradeoffs that I will talk about in my next post because, controverisal opinion time, I do not believe that Ling Qi needs to be defeated more.

Also, not to kick over a hornet's nest, but remember this?

Man I just can't win can I. You guys haven't taken more than a minor loss the entire quest, and the things I do just to keep Ling Qi from trouncing everything when I go overboard on her powerups have people complaining about how weak she is.

Like what. Your competitive or superior to literally all but three people in the outer sect.

Frankly, this is the story the thread asked for, not the story yrs wanted to necessarily write. It's a testament to his skill that the story is as engaging as it is. And as a guy with a patreon, yrs is more bounded to your opinions than usual so do not rag on him for giving you what you wanted rather than what the story deserved. :V
 
As a quest, FoD is fantastic. As a story, there are some major holes. Some are due to the format of quest updating vs story writing (as a QM you start losing details - e.g.: Li Suyin mentions inviting Ling Qi on an expedition at the end of Forge of Destiny and then acts surprised when Ling Qi wants to come along during Threads of Destiny - like, Li, you literally mentioned this last week, don't act so surprised when Ling Qi wants to come along), but others are due to the fact that minmaxing and questing brings about some weird story results.

Ling Qi having such fantastic reserves of qi is pretty much first commented upon by CRX, I think when they go flying together: 'good, you're confident in your reserves' but I'm pretty sure it comes across as something distinctly weird in-story when Shen Hu says: 'wow, you just never run out of qi, do you?' because Ling Qi has literally never bothered to cultivate her qi even once. It's all down to her medicine and pill use and no one else has really noticed that her reserves are as enormous as they are.

What would actually make more sense is if she was just born with ginormous reserves or happened to have some sort of trait that allowed her to really take advantage of medicinal energy or if, idk, the fact that she had bonded to a super special spirit beast known for its overwhelming staying power supercharged her ability to cultivate qi. You... kind of get away with it by saying that Ling Qi just never stops cultivating, but at a certain point that excuse gets a little weak. It just doesn't make sense because the reality is there is an overmind directing her medicine use and training schedule to be optimized.

A better story would probably have her qi reserves be low relative to her power. Why? Because her style doesn't actually require a lot of qi. She uses arts to drain qi and her signature offensive art is self-sustaining and requires little enough of it. Having an actual 'well, that's kind of ridiculous' reserve of qi to top that off... it's kind of extraneous. Why keep it? It's the sort of doubling up on strengths that antagonists generally get.

Now if Ling Qi made it an explicit goal... maybe. But she didn't. It kinda just happened that way.

There's a lot of stuff like that. Why does Ling Qi pick up and then just stop using her bow? Like what is that trying to communicate, story-wise? What's the theme? Same with her throwing knives that just kind of disappear never to re-appear. She never really used the capstone to her wind art despite being described in-text. And why did she go exactly once to that creepy treasure island..... and just never go back? Why was there this huge push to grab all the secret argent arts from the various trials... and then she just kind of lost interest in them? Why did we try all of once to build our little spy skeletons and then, despite being hired to be a spy-mistress, never actually employ them to do spy-work? Wait, how did we get good enough to build our little spy skeletons in the first place? We didn't spend a lot of time on formations... and why was that awesome skeleton mech mentioned once and then never again?

There are too many story hooks because this is a quest, not a story.

The story of FoD and now ToD is kind of being defeated by the open, sandbox nature of its own gameplay. Every other characters have a much more coherent build and story because they didn't go : OH THAT LOOKS NEAT at everything they saw. It probably would have made for a much better story if Ling Qi... weren't actually as lucky as she was. If, there were, say, months of a slow, grinding slog that could be skipped over with a simple:


-------------


And then it was winter.


--------------


Boom! The parts where nothing happen you skip over and briefly summarize because story is king, not gameplay, but priorities are reversed in a quest. Every week has to be somewhat interesting because that's the format.
I mean... the reason people were talking about the dichtomy between Ling Qi's efforts and the instory description and not those examples you provided was precisely because Yrsillar actually did a bang up job of doing exactly those things.

Ling Qi's Qi was both foreshadowed by Elder Su mentioning Ling Qi's pills were ones that were beyond Meizhen's reach, but solidified by Meizhen commenting on how exceptional Ling Qi's Qi reserves were. Ling Qi going Knives => Bow => Music not only had like 3 different narrative arcs instory talking about them at different points with specific quest associations, but had a beautiful finale finishing those. Those character arcs were some of the most well done of the quest, so I am sad it seems so many people missed them. The spy skeletons were actually used to do spywork, and were mentioned something like 7 different times over different updates. The issue with those are very differents, as @AbeoLogos would be glad to rant on (E.G, Ling Qi lost interest rather than lost the will to work on them, making them Suyin's character arc suddenly).

Hell, the thing that people have talked about recently (though not in the last couple pages) was that weeks 35 => 52 were "And then it was Winter", and it caused its own specific issues story and quest wise. So, yes. Yrs did decide to have nothing out of expectation happening for the last 17 or so weeks.




Idk what the solution is besides 'don't write a quest, write a story,' but if you want a story with this amount of freedom and resolution, you are going to have to acknowledge that there will be tradeoffs.

Tradeoffs that I will talk about in my next post because, controverisal opinion time, I do not believe that Ling Qi needs to be defeated more.

Also, not to kick over a hornet's nest, but remember this?



Frankly, this is the story the thread asked for, not the story yrs wanted to necessarily write. It's a testament to his skill that the story is as engaging as it is. And as a guy with a patreon, yrs is more bounded to your opinions than usual so do not rag on him for giving you what you wanted rather than what the story deserved. :V
I'm not sure why you are poking this particular hornet's nest? From what I can see there was a civil discussion with no actual complaints about win or losses, so there is no revelance. It just feels like a smug driveby sniping going "Oh Oh Oh you folks don't have the right to talk about the story because everything bad about the quest is what you asked for".

Hell, the whole of this post, considering how it directly contradict what is actually shown inquest, seems more like an excuse for the driveby smugness than anything else.
 
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From a story perspective though? It just makes it weak. It removes its emotional weight and meaning. Taken too far, and you've just got one of those boring protagonists that never really has to struggle and always wins (and no, I'm not saying that's what it's like, but it is the potential end state).

Is introducing some artificial adversity where should be none just for the sake of difficulty level better though? Sect is supposed to be a playground for nobles; if LQ's just that good that she destroys her competition of that level easily enough, so what then? In a couple of years she'll move out of that controlled environment and will become an underdog again.

Edit. Hell, she's not even as good as you seem to think she is: now that Ji Rong got himself a supporter and has ways to access top-tier drugs, he'll catch up to Ling Qi in a moment and will most likely skyrocket ahead of her.
 
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