Remove ads

Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Reader mode
Kai Merah said:
Citation please? I had the impression that everyone was perfectly safe from spirits until folks started breaking oaths. And they started breaking oaths most likely due to economic pressure from other clans, not due to spirits eating them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Cities keep the low level spirits away (we only heard them at the edge of the wards). Trees on the other hand do not (we saw this with our little sister and her talking about the means tree spirits).

The issue is that the threat do not come from sentient spirits, with which pact are made. They come from the low level (red or yellow) spirits that do not follow the pacts (because they have no idea pacts even exist).
 
archangis said:
Cities keep the low level spirits away (we only heard them at the edge of the wards). Trees on the other hand do not (we saw this with our little sister and her talking about the means tree spirits).

The issue is that the threat do not come from sentient spirits, with which pact are made. They come from the low level (red or yellow) spirits that do not follow the pacts (because they have no idea pacts even exist).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is speculation. Early Weilu Pact could well have gone something like "We promise to only live in these kinds of houses and harvest only this much, in exchange, help us out and protect us from any unpacted spirits please". And that would make sense for a primitive tribe making their first pacts.

It makes much less sense for Imperial cultivators who can create formations to keep out the lesser spirits themselves. I suspect imperial pacts with high level spirits are only non aggression, and not necessarily defence, otherwise Imperial cultivators and citizens would be much more constrained in their actions. But no, Imperial citizens can farm and harvest as they need without being called oathbreaker, and I think that's because the pacts they've made require much less on the parts of the spirits, and so less was asked of them.
 
Kai Merah said:
This is speculation. Early Weilu Pact could well have gone something like "We promise to only live in these kinds of houses and harvest only this much, in exchange, help us out and protect us from any unpacted spirits please". And that would make sense for a primitive tribe making their first pacts.

It makes much less sense for Imperial cultivators who can create formations to keep out the lesser spirits themselves. I suspect imperial pacts with high level spirits are only non aggression, and not necessarily defence, otherwise Imperial cultivators and citizens would be much more constrained in their actions. But no, Imperial citizens can farm and harvest as they need without being called oathbreaker, and I think that's because the pacts they've made require much less on the parts of the spirits, and so less was asked of them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The sect who beat up all the spirits close and tamed them do not have such a pact so I am very doubtfull of it being even possible.
 
archangis said:
The sect who beat up all the spirits close and tamed them do not have such a pact so I am very doubtfull of it being even possible.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Why would they want such a defensive pact when they want minor aggressive spirits to harvest and let their disciples fight?

And again, clearly such a defensive pact has heavy costs like "only harvest this much" and "no living in stone houses", which imperial cultivators would find it crazy to agree to.
 
Kai Merah said:
Why would they want such a defensive pact when they want minor aggressive spirits to harvest and let their disciples fight?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because their job is protecting the mortals.

veekie said:
I would note this IS deliberately left wilder for training purposes
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I would like a cite for that one because the only thing qi can rememver is yrs saying the opposite.

Kai Merah said:
And again, clearly such a defensive pact has heavy costs like "only harvest this much" and "no living in stone houses", which imperial cultivators would find it crazy to agree to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


The advantage of being several rank higher cultivation wise is that you can impose them prrtty much anything you want.
 
Last edited:
archangis said:
Because their job is protecting the mortals.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The point is that a pact requiring high level spirits to defend mortals against unpacted spirits would likely have a prohibitive cost, such as not allowing anyone to live in stone houses or cut down sufficient trees for industry. This is not something imperial cultivators would agree to, because they are a civilisation with knowledge of formations, and not a bunch of primitive tribes.

Basically, we have no reason to believe that Weilu pacts are anything like imperial pacts, and so we cannot assume mortal Weilu were getting eaten by spirits before the oathbreaking, just because imperial mortals can get eaten if they venture past the formation wards.
 
Kai Merah said:
The point is that a pact requiring high level spirits to defend mortals against unpacted spirits would likely have a prohibitive cost, such as not allowing anyone to live in stone houses or cut down sufficient trees for industry. This is not something imperial cultivators would agree to, because they are a civilisation with knowledge of formations, and not a bunch of primitive tribes.

Basically, we have no reason to believe that Weilu pacts are anything like imperial pacts, and so we cannot assume mortal Weilu were getting eaten by spirits before the oathbreaking, just because imperial mortals can get eaten if they venture past the formation wards.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Of course we can assume. We have the point of view of the weilus on the subject. Mortals a chattel, that get killed of in mass because they were on the wrong side.

Which part of this make it look as if they care about mortal lives to the point of making deals with spirits to protect them ?

There is literally zero evidence supporting your side you are just blindly reaching in the hope of making the mass murderer of civilian look less in the wrong by saying that it was the ones protecting the mortals in question that led to their deaths by breaking pacts protecting them.

yrsillar said:
Breaking old pacts, cutting wood beyond the limits of our oaths, building festering nests of stone like the foolish apes to the north. Breaking with the flow of the sun, the moon and the seasons, as if they could forge a new order for themselves."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Which part of this made you think that weilus cared about mortals ? Quick reminder, winter in bronze age killed a shitton of people by the cold. This is what the rebels fought against.
 
archangis said:
Of course we can assume. We have the point of view of the weilus on the subject. Mortals a chattel, that get killed of in mass because they were on the wrong side.

Which part of this make it look as if they care about mortal lives to the point of making deals with spirits to protect them ?

There is literally zero evidence supporting your side you are just blindly reaching in the hope of making the mass murderer of civilian look less in the wrong by saying that it was the ones protecting the mortals in question that led to their deaths by breaking pacts protecting them.



Which part of this made you think that weilus cared about mortals ? Quick reminder, winter in bronze age killed a shitton of people by the cold. This is what the rebels fought against.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I honestly don't think anybody really cared about mortals during this time period. But why else would Weilu pacts be so stringent and confining if they only required the Pacted spirits to not attack? Clearly there has to be something more to the Pact.

Yes, the Weilu conservatives are terrible people who care more about oaths than lives, but I don't know why you insist the Weilu progressives are clearly better. Where did you get the narrative that they were brave freedom fighters rebelling against the tyranny of spirits to save mortal lives? I find it likelier that they broke ancient pacts meant to keep the peace because they saw their neighbours out competing them and wanted a bigger slice of the economic pie.
 
Last edited:
Kai Merah said:
? I find it likelier that they broke ancient pacts meant to keep the peace because they saw their neighbours out competing them and wanted a bigger slice of the economic pie.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And I'd note they DID have a bigger slice. At least big enough to damage important holy sites and kill plenty of the conservatives who outnumbered them...


...until the conservatives invoked their pact with the forest and the forest answered.
Then the progressives learned just WHY they follow all those inane rules.
 
Kai Merah said:
But why else would Weilu pacts be so stringent and confining if they only required the Pacted spirits to not attack?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because the weilus were significantly weaker than the spirits at the start.

Kai Merah said:
I honestly don't think anybody really cared about mortals during this time period
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Even if the rebels didn't truly care they still made life better for them.

Like the Cais now that I think about it.
 
archangis said:
Because the weilus were significantly weaker than the spirits at the start.



Even if the rebels didn't truly care they still made life better for them.

Like the Cais now that I think about it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, Cai mom is at odds with the Weilu conservatives.
Not sure it's possible to completely wipe away that history, considering that many weilu became great spirits. But it's probably feasible to weaken their hold on the province a bit.
 
I don't believe that Ling Qi will be heading to or directly facing Shen Hu, so I'm willing to trust his own fortitude in the face of forest-y threats. Frankly, I expect Ling Qi to come out of this dream more of a wreck than he will. Maybe we can have a chat about things once we're out, bond over our mutual horror or something.

[X] Accept the blessing of Hide

I'm going with this because if the boons are alterations to items we hold (which would explain how they could persist beyond the dream) then getting our Cai robes modified is a million times the hilarity of any other choice.
 
Last edited:
veekie said:
And I'd note they DID have a bigger slice. At least big enough to damage important holy sites and kill plenty of the conservatives who outnumbered them...


...until the conservatives invoked their pact with the forest and the forest answered.
Then the progressives learned just WHY they follow all those inane rules.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Less 'conservatives invoked their pact', and more "King and his brother raced each others to White, King won":
"They bought metals and stone from serpents and apes, and laid siege to our most sacred temples. They pillaged and killed their own kin and defied the holy conclave of kings. Yet, when this King reached the peak, gathered the scattered courts to war, and awoke the Sea. what good did it do?" The king continued contemptuously. "The followers of truth have scoured them from the land and cast down their blights, regrown the sullied groves on the flesh and blood of chattel and traitor alike. Now, only one foolish man remains unrepentant. It is my brother and nephews who I hunt this night, little dreamer."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
We have absolutely no knowledge of what life was like for mortals in ancient Weilu. We have no idea what the quality of life was like for the mortals who lived in stone structures or even if those stone structures were for mortals or were status symbols for wealthy elites. People are viewing the spirits as though they are a part of a united Weilu kingdom, but it sounds more to me like the Emerald Sea was split into land for the spirits and land for the humans. This would make the incursions of the so-called progressive Weilu something more akin to border incursions and raiding. It's not the exact same thing, but it is fairly similar on a political level. Borders are established in order to promote trust and violations of border demarcations can cause strife. We also don't know all the details behind the prohibition of stone and metal working so it's kinda hard to make a strong argument revolving around that. We don't have enough details to make any strong moral judgement; both sides sound pretty messed up and we have no idea which one was worse or which one might have been justified.

Edit: It's also not even obvious or clear that the prohibitions against metal or stone working were pact based or a cultural thing.

I'm also noticing a ton of fairly racist stuff in this thread about nomadic/hunter-gatherer life styles being shit and extremely primitive. Neither of these statements are especially true and are mostly borne out of a eurocentric viewpoint that sees most of the movement from the past to the present as a journey from bad conditions to good conditions. Hunter-gatherer life was really only worse for elites, not for most people. People generally didn't die in the cold and access to food stuffs year round was much worse for agrarian societies for a fairly long time. What made agrarian society so useful was that you could support larger and specialized populations - but this doesn't make it better, just better able to conduct war.
 
Last edited:
[X] Accept the blessing of Fang

----------​

"Bai Meizhen! I need to have words with you!"
gnar gnar gnar
"What is it that you want, Sun Liling?"
gnar
"I want to know why, precisely, Ling Qi is gnawing on my scalp!"
gnar gnar
"Ling Qi, what are you doing?"
"...gnawing on Sun Liling's scalp."
"...Yes, I can see that. Why, precisely, are you gnawing on her?"
"Well, it's a bit of a long story, but the gist is that I went for a walk in the woods, met a man in a dream who had antlers and who gained knowledge from inhaling smoke, and he gave me fangs."
"Ling Qi, I have many questio-"
"WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GNAWING ON MY SCALP!"
gnar gnar gnar
"-but in the interest of time, how does that lead to you gnawing on Sun?"
"...isn't it obvious? I have fangs now, thus I'm a vampire. But there's only room for one vampire in the sect, so I need to kill Sun Liling and extract blood techniques from her corpse."
"...Right. What about Huang Da? Doesn't he also have some vampire aesthetics?"
"Nobody cares about nor remembers Huang Da though, especially not me."
"...Fair enough then. Sun Liling, I have a very full schedule, I'm sure you understand. And as it happens, 'Deal with Ling Qi gnawing on Sun Liling's scalp because she doesn't possess any common sense with regards to dealing with spirits' is not anywhere on said schedule. Very sorry*."
gnar gnar gnar
"Get back here, Bai! You need to do something about this!"
gnar gnar
"Goodbye, Sun Liling. Enjoy your new friend."
gnar
"You backstabbing snake! GET BACK HERE!"
gnar gnar gnar
 
[X] Ask for something else, despite the risk.
-[X] Ask that Shen Hu and any mortals be spared the hunt
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top