Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Asael]

I think I would quite like if we suffered Xiulan-style consequences in our ambition. Xiulan's injuries (as far as I can tell) didn't slow her down, made her more driven if anything, and yet they were still deeply unpleasant in a way that drove her character development.

The kind of position we're in means that losing a month of time is near-crippling for our ambitions, but I also understand the narrative hope for Ling Qi's journey to have real downturns and loss to ground her struggle and determination, and I think there is some subset of consequence that fits within both desires and can enhance the narrative without impeding our progress.

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If we suffered a Xuilan type penalty, I'd expect a Xuilan type reward.
And frankly, that isnt going to happen. The most we could possibly hope for in this situation is what, an art?


Anyway, there is no reason to think a long term maiming would come out of this? Even if the king thrashes us, which he might, ordinary injuries dont take that long to recover from.

And there is no reason for him to go further than ordinary injuries in a situation like this.

 

[Vanguard_D]

Oh sure, which is why we should get get/find out cool stuff.

But at what cost?

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Cost is fine, we should expect cost. As long as we gain long term on it we can recover and push the glass ceiling higher. Like the prime example of cost we got is still Xiulan. Sure it cost and still costs her pain, but what has she gained from it? It seems to me that she at least thinks that she has gained from it.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Did Zeqing give us a 50/50 shot at passing her trial? Was it even odds that we would die in that blizzard, or did Zeqing believe that we had the ability to preserve and pass the trial consistently? Did Zeqing give us a coin flip, or did she believe we had good odds of succeeding?

Did we have the skills to impress at the Moon Revel, or did Xin just throw us into the deep end on that one and we had only a 50/50 shot at making it out in a timely manner?

Did we have the tools to destroy the stealth item that the Biohazard Shaman was using, or was it simply a lucky coincidence that we hit it at all with our most powerful attack?

Did we have the skills, arts, and friends to evade and escape Liling, or was it only by the grace of Yrs that we didn't get caught there?

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Excellent question.

I think that our odds for Zeqing and the Revel were meaningfully better than a coin toss. Liling was meaningfully worse than a coin-toss; we got really lucky there. Not sure about the Shaman, so I'm defaulting to 50-50 there.

Of course, it takes less luck to succeed a number of times if the challenges you face are likely to end in your favor, and it takes more luck if they are likely to end against you, so it is important to consider the odds - but I don't want to get into a rigorous analysis about exactly how lucky we are. That endeavour is doomed to failure anyways unless we restrict ourselves only to considering raw rolls, because we can't really compare the impact of doing well or poorly on various challenge without a ton of subjectivity.

For instance, when in Yan Renshu's lair and the knife slipped in her hand, alerting Yan Renshu.

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Fair point. I'll note however that this didn't appear to actually cost us much. I guess it made YR come after us immediately and know we were the ones who grabbed his book, rather than him figuring it out later or the like?

Additionally, saying that luck has been continually lopsided for Ling Qi seems to be a claim that Yrs is fudging the numbers in our favor. So let's just get this elephant out in the open: are you claiming that Yrs is fudging the numbers?

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Not in the slightest.
There was a quest I participated a while ago where I seriously suspected the GM of fudging dice - but back then we were getting outcomes with probabilities of one in hundreds-of-millions. That is what it would take to make me suspicious - this doesn't come close.

If I had to claim Yrs was doing anything, the worst I would say is that he is overgenerous in giving us bonuses or interpreting rolls. So e.g. in the YR raid maybe us failing the steal roll should have led to YR trapping us in his base and us failing the objective and losing stuff or the like.

 

[Zaealix]

Hrrm. Way I see it...
We could talk to the King, play for the Hunt and goad them onwards, laughing merrily at the deveastation we help wreck, and joking at Shen Hu getting stomped flat under Giant Angry Deer's hooves, with a taste for seeing such things happen again under a bloody moon...
We could go help Shen Hu, remember our humanity, and show ourselves compassionate and caring, guiding the villiagers to safety and sparing them the horrors of the Hunt, walking away secure in the knowledge that we are indeed kind enough to risk our life for the mortals under our protection, as the Mother Moon smiles upon us (I'm pretty sure there was a Mother Moon or something along those lines...)
So healing moon or killy moon?
[X] Go with Shen Hu, sometimes the unambiguous route is the best one.

 

[Vanguard_D]

Hrrm. Way I see it...
We could talk to the King, play for the Hunt and goad them onwards, laughing merrily at the deveastation we help wreck, and joking at Shen Hu getting stomped flat under Giant Angry Deer's hooves, with a taste for seeing such things happen again under a bloody moon...
We could go help Shen Hu, remember our humanity, and show ourselves compassionate and caring, guiding the villiagers to safety and sparing them the horrors of the Hunt, walking away secure in the knowledge that we are indeed kind enough to risk our life for the mortals under our protection, as the Mother Moon smiles upon us (I'm pretty sure there was a Mother Moon or something along those lines...)
So healing moon or killy moon?
[X] Go with Shen Hu, sometimes the unambiguous route is the best one.

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Sad to say that the vote is closed and your option lost.

There is a Mother Moon and well she is about "Good health, fertility, healing, mysteries of love and new life", there is an info post on it in the first thread if you want to check it out.

So not sure why she would smile on us in the village. Not a lot of family and erm, bringing forth new life to be made there.... I hope.

 

[Asael]

Cost is fine, we should expect cost. As long as we gain long term on it we can recover and push the glass ceiling higher. Like the prime example of cost we got is still Xiulan. Sure it cost and still costs her pain, but what has she gained from it? It seems to me that she at least thinks that she has gained from it.

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The cost for most trials is just time, if they go well.

Things haven't exploded yet. I wish people would chill with the doom saying. There is almost certainly one or two more votes left, I think.

 

[Zaealix]

Sad to say that the vote is closed and your option lost.

There is a Mother Moon and well she is about "Good health, fertility, healing, mysteries of love and new life", there is an info post on it in the first thread if you want to check it out.

So not sure why she would smile on us in the village. Not a lot of family and erm, bringing forth new life to be made there.... I hope.

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Aaah glad ya cleared up the Mother Moon bit. Aaaand that's what I get for not watching the thread properly!

 

[PrimalShadow]

I think what's annoying people about the complaints is less that they don't get that people want there to be more challenges, but more that there seems to be this unspoken assertion in said complaints that this particular meeting should be a punishment for hubris, and not an adventure. That we made a inherently wrong choice, and that we should be punished for it.

For those who argued that this choice was worth it, it probably chafes to have people come and say 'oh well, I hope what we suffer teaches us some important lessons about risks'.

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That is an entirely fair objection. I apologize to anyone who read my posts and got that impression. Let me take a step back and say that my hope for failure is indeed in the context of the meeting being a risk, and if people's evaluation of us being relatively safe (thanks to siding with the Tree) is correct, I would instead hope that our outcome reflects that and we come to no harm.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Xiulan-style consequences would be pretty bad for Ling Qi for two reasons. One, we had weaker starting attributes, and one of our current major struggles is in catching up in those terms, so stat-loss would hit us harder than the noble girl. Two, Ling Qi benefits less from elementally-focused bonuses because her elements are less focused. Fortunately, it's not really a Xiulan-style kinda test at the moment.

Now, what Ling Qi could get is lasting emotional scars with cultivation, AP, or social penalties. I'd expect any of those to be an opportunity in itself though. I don't expect unambiguously bad outcomes, due to the nature of cultivation. Also, I'm not in favor of failure, I just think there's a substantial chance of it, and I'm not concerned by it.

 

[Asael]

Xiulan-style consequences would be pretty bad for Ling Qi for two reasons. One, we had weaker starting attributes, and one of our current major struggles is in catching up in those terms, so stat-loss would hit us harder than the noble girl. Two, Ling Qi benefits less from elementally-focused bonuses because her elements are less focused. Fortunately, it's not really a Xiulan-style kinda test at the moment.

Now, what Ling Qi could get is lasting emotional scars with cultivation, AP, or social penalties. I'd expect any of those to be an opportunity in itself though. I don't expect unambiguously bad outcomes, due to the nature of cultivation. Also, I'm not in favor of failure, I just think there's a substantial chance of it, and I'm not concerned by it.

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Coulda swore that yrs said mind control, beyond super natural social stuff, wasn't really a thing in this setting.

Pretty sure we haven't gotten past the point of just saying no.


And the dreaming moon example doesnt work so well here, because LQ was seriously drunk.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

If we suffered a Xuilan type penalty, I'd expect a Xuilan type reward.
And frankly, that isnt going to happen. The most we could possibly hope for in this situation is what, an art?


Anyway, there is no reason to think a long term maiming would come out of this? Even if the king thrashes us, which he might, ordinary injuries dont take that long to recover from.

And there is no reason for him to go further than ordinary injuries in a situation like this.

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I'm not talking about wanting the same kind of tradeoff Xiulan experienced, a boost to ability with gnarly side-effects. I was simply isolating, out of the set of all possible negative consequences we could suffer for a failure, consequences that make Ling Qi suffer and potentially drive character development without impeding her cultivation.

I'm hoping for Ling Qi's success, of course, but if we must fail, or suffer consequences alongside our successes, that kind of consequence is the one I'd most prefer. Xiulan's pain and struggle was real, powerful, and driving, which means it isn't a meaningless slap on the wrist, but something like it wouldn't get in the way of our grander plans for Ling Qi's future.

Also, to be more clear, I'm not talking about a copy-paste version of what happened to Xiulan. I'm talking about something that affects Ling Qi in the same way, with intense and/or extended suffering from some source or another, without breaking her schedule. This could come from a variety of sources, from physical afflictions a la Xiulan to mental afflictions and everything in-between, and while I'm certainly not creative enough to think of everything on the table, I can feel that there's plenty of options there if the need arises.

e: I'm also not talking about this event exclusively. I'm thinking about failure/downsides in general, from whatever lies ahead (including this). If there's nothing that the Forest King would reasonably inflict that fits this bill, then that's fine, but I bet there will be future conflicts with different risks that just might do something like this if we fail.

 

[Asael]

I'm not talking about wanting the same kind of tradeoff Xiulan experienced, a boost to ability with gnarly side-effects. I was simply isolating, out of the set of all possible negative consequences we could suffer for a failure, consequences that make Ling Qi suffer and potentially drive character development without impeding her cultivation.

I'm hoping for Ling Qi's success, of course, but if we must fail, or suffer consequences alongside our successes, that kind of consequence is the one I'd most prefer. Xiulan's pain and struggle was real, powerful, and driving, which means it isn't a meaningless slap on the wrist, but something like it wouldn't get in the way of our grander plans for Ling Qi's future.

Also, to be more clear, I'm not talking about a copy-paste version of what happened to Xiulan. I'm talking about something that affects Ling Qi in the same way, with intense and/or extended suffering from some source or another, without breaking her schedule. This could come from a variety of sources, from physical afflictions a la Xiulan to mental afflictions and everything in-between, and while I'm certainly not creative enough to think of everything on the table, I can feel that there's plenty of options there if the need arises.

e: I'm also not talking about this event exclusively. I'm thinking about failure/downsides in general, from whatever lies ahead (including this). If there's nothing that the Forest King would reasonably inflict that fits this bill, then that's fine, but I bet there will be future conflicts with different risks that just might do something like this if we fail.

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And wouldn't make sense here. Cultivators heal really fast, even without medical treatment. With medical treatment it's near miraculous.

Lasting physical injuries aren't something we're likely to see in this cirumstance, and lasting emotional injuries dont seem appropriate in a circumstance with so little personal investment.

I mean, it's a dream, LQ would have to be compelled to participate in a wild hunt targeting civvies, running into this thing in the first place is a surprise. Making this some kind of big turning point seems weird and out of place.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Coulda swore that yrs said mind control, beyond super natural social stuff, wasn't really a thing in this setting.

Pretty sure we haven't gotten past the point of just saying no.


And the dreaming moon example doesnt work so well here, because LQ was seriously drunk.

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I mean, the very first spirit that we ever faced trapped us in a delusion that made us all sad and self-loathing while pulling at strings of memory and whatever. That thing was a low-grade Red spirit. If a cyan+ spirit wearing a mantle of the Bloody Moon can't flood Ling Qi full of vengeful sorrowful memories she experiences as though they're her own to set her off on a rampage, I'll eat my hat. Especially if it pumps her full of anger juice and then says "Oh, and if you don't do what that makes you feel like you want to do, I'll break your legs, kiddo" it can probably get its way. It shouldn't be able to perfectly direct her actions, and it could even backlash and result in Ling Qi attacking beings on the side of the forest, and it definitely wouldn't be able to control how she felt about the episode in the aftermath, but that's only an issue if the thing actually cares.

But I didn't actually suggest that this would happen in my post you're responding to. There's a lot of ways Ling Qi could end up with trauma. Even without forcing her hand, just forcing her presence or awareness of the events that unfold could leave a mark on her, especially if she's prevented from doing anything about it in either capacity.

 

[Asael]

I mean, the very first spirit that we ever faced trapped us in a delusion that made us all sad and self-loathing while pulling at strings of memory and whatever. That thing was a low-grade Red spirit. If a cyan+ spirit wearing a mantle of the Bloody Moon can't flood Ling Qi full of vengeful sorrowful memories she experiences as though they're her own to set her off on a rampage, I'll eat my hat. Especially if it pumps her full of anger juice and then says "Oh, and if you don't do what that makes you feel like you want to do, I'll break your legs, kiddo" it can probably get its way. It shouldn't be able to perfectly direct her actions, and it could even backlash and result in Ling Qi attacking beings on the side of the forest, and it definitely wouldn't be able to control how she felt about the episode in the aftermath, but that's only an issue if the thing actually cares.

But I didn't actually suggest that this would happen in my post you're responding to. There's a lot of ways Ling Qi could end up with trauma. Even without forcing her hand, just forcing her presence or awareness of the events that unfold could leave a mark on her, especially if she's prevented from doing anything about it in either capacity.

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It really doesn't seem appropriate for just deciding to meet him, frankly.

Besides, It's always been possible to resist that kind of thing in the past. Back against that red spirit, LQ was the scrubbiest of scrub tiers, with litterally only one red art.

And we still got a choice there. We'll have a choice here too. Broken legs aren't even that big of a deal, honestly. LQ's had broken bones before, and healed in what, a week or two with treatment? She's actually heals faster now.

 

[AbeoLogos]

It really doesn't seem appropriate for just deciding to meet him, frankly.

Besides, It's always been possible to resist that kind of thing in the past. Back against that red spirit, LQ was the scrubbiest of scrub tiers, with litterally only one red art.

And we still got a choice there. We'll have a choice here too. Broken legs aren't even that big of a deal, honestly. LQ's had broken bones before, and healed in what, a week or two with treatment? She's actually heals faster now.

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What, you don't think that getting injected with vengeful rage and then having her body broken and left by the wayside to helplessly witness the bloodshed while she wonders what other paths she could have chosen, is reminded of her powerlessness in the face of the strong, and receives no rewards (while potentially necessitating the consumption of the expensive healing medicine Li Suyin gave us that one time) would leave emotional injuries? Like, I don't think it's anything like likely, but I'm confused here because we seem to have completely alien ideas as to what can potentially exist in terms of consequences, or what actually constitutes a lasting consequence.

I expect to have further choices and to be able to control the direction events unfold, at least as they pertain to Ling Qi. I'm not certain that all choices will be good or painless. Sometimes past choices recklessly made lock you into an unfortunate crossroads.

But hey, I voted for meeting the King, and I always vote in what I believe the character's best interests are, from roughly near what I believe the character's perspective is. Here, I am seeking information and prioritizing that over potential risks. Spirits are dangerous and the risks are real, but they're not inevitable and I chose to accept them, unknown as they are.

 

[Asael]

What, you don't think that getting injected with vengeful rage and then having her body broken and left by the wayside to helplessly witness the bloodshed while she wonders what other paths she could have chosen, is reminded of her powerlessness in the face of the strong, and receives no rewards (while potentially necessitating the consumption of the expensive healing medicine Li Suyin gave us that one time) would leave emotional injuries? Like, I don't think it's anything like likely, but I'm confused here because we seem to have completely alien ideas as to what can potentially exist in terms of consequences, or what actually constitutes a lasting consequence.

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I'm sure it would, I just dont think it's remotely likely.

 

[Hangwind]

Okay, I actually want to weigh in on the narrative debate. There's actually a good reason that it feels like we don't take a lot of loss from losses. It's because we don't. And that's because we built ourselves that way. Seriously, we've been very calmly screaming in terror the whole time. Our build lets us hinder and run perfectly. That's why we get so many "moral victories" and sort of meh results. Because we have made risk mitigation into an art form. We're basically the guy in a game that always buys extra lives at the upgrade shop.

And it's our weakness too. Because while we can run away most of the time, tank long enough to run away, and debuff our opponents into the ground, we have trouble with being alone. If we had been able to team up with Bai or Cai, we would have absolutely thrashed Sun and Ji without any problems. Instead, we got a victory on a coinflip against Ji, who had been pretty badly crippled in terms of training, and just ROFLstomped by Sun. It's pretty bad as far as weaknesses go honestly. We have addressed it somewhat with Best Turtle, but even that is more of a temporary fix than anything.

Essentially, our build is just doing it's job. If we were constantly taking huge losses, our various investments would have been pretty worthless. To put it in movie terms, we're not in Die Hard, we're in Bourne Identity. If we see overwhelming odds, we don't go in all guns blazing, we RUN THE FUCK AWAY! Because that's what we chose to be good at.

Incidentally, this is why most action/super heroes have offensive powers instead of defensive. It makes it easier to inflate the stakes and raise the tension, as well as allowing the main character to pull out a last second miracle. That's just not Ling Qi's sort of story though.

 

[archangis]

Enough about prehemptive salt. Let's talk about real salt and us losing the opportunity of TRF+ by siding with the spirit.

Deerboi had TRF+, so siding with him would have made getting it relativelly likely. Siding with the spirit so far doesn't seems to have anything worth that in opportunities.

 

[Hangwind]

Deerboi had TRF+, so siding with him would have made getting it relativelly likely. Siding with the spirit so far doesn't seems to have anything worth that in opportunities.

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"Miserable assassin," he whispered in a furious hiss. "Did your Elders pluck that art from the corpses of my brothers?"

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Well, kill enough Weilu and maybe we can do this!

 

[Erebeal]

Deerboi had TRF+, so siding with him would have made getting it relativelly likely. Siding with the spirit so far doesn't seems to have anything worth that in opportunities.

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Since when did he have TRF+? He was only appraisal. TRF finishes in Appraisal. He could just have TRF.

 

[archangis]

Since when did he have TRF+? He was only appraisal. TRF finishes in Appraisal. He could just have TRF.

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Even against two opponents though, he wasn't helpless, with skill that Ling Qi suspected Sun Liling would envy, spinning parries became strikes that hit with the force of a heavenly bolt, ripping wide furrows in the tree spirits bark and sending up clouds of ashen sawdust.

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This most likely means that he started on his second step arts, like Sun Lilling (Otherwise his skill would be lesser than her, as he would have less qualified bonuses). Therefore he should be on TRF+ too.

Secondly, the memories of a green surviving 8500 years at the very least ? That's unlikely to say the least. What is most likely is that the dream is set at our level, and thus what loot we can get is scaled the same way.

 

[Erebeal]

This most likely means that he started on his second step arts, like Sun Lilling (Otherwise his skill would be lesser than her, as he would have less qualified bonuses). Therefore he should be on TRF+ too.

Secondly, the memories of a green surviving 8500 years at the very least ? That's unlikely to say the least. What is most likely is that the dream is set at our level, and thus what loot we can get is scaled the same way.

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Ok, but. Counterargument: He just told us how to get TRF+

We have to rip it from his corpse.

We gotta help the King guys, it's the only way we'll get TRF+

 

[archangis]

Ok, but. Counterargument: He just told us how to get TRF+

We have to rip it from his corpse.

We gotta help the King guys, it's the only way we'll get TRF+

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What elders can do has very little influence on what we can do.

You will note he didn't talk about us ripping the arts from the corpses of his brothers. He talked about our elders.

 

[jacobk]

Okay, I actually want to weigh in on the narrative debate. There's actually a good reason that it feels like we don't take a lot of loss from losses. It's because we don't. And that's because we built ourselves that way. Seriously, we've been very calmly screaming in terror the whole time. Our build lets us hinder and run perfectly. That's why we get so many "moral victories" and sort of meh results. Because we have made risk mitigation into an art form. We're basically the guy in a game that always buys extra lives at the upgrade shop.

And it's our weakness too. Because while we can run away most of the time, tank long enough to run away, and debuff our opponents into the ground, we have trouble with being alone. If we had been able to team up with Bai or Cai, we would have absolutely thrashed Sun and Ji without any problems. Instead, we got a victory on a coinflip against Ji, who had been pretty badly crippled in terms of training, and just ROFLstomped by Sun. It's pretty bad as far as weaknesses go honestly. We have addressed it somewhat with Best Turtle, but even that is more of a temporary fix than anything.

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I think this comes down to the fact that we went for a support and crowd control focused build than anything else. We thrive in one-on-many and many-on-many battles. Like, compare our preliminary performance with Ji Rong's.

The fact that we're also somewhat competent in 1-on-1 fights is more down to Ling Qi's talent, drugs, and the Dao of the Spreadsheet.

 

[veekie]

This most likely means that he started on his second step arts, like Sun Lilling (Otherwise his skill would be lesser than her, as he would have less qualified bonuses). Therefore he should be on TRF+ too.

Secondly, the memories of a green surviving 8500 years at the very least ? That's unlikely to say the least. What is most likely is that the dream is set at our level, and thus what loot we can get is scaled the same way.

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Naw by the description he didn't do anything we couldn't do with TRF(we did what he did vs Liling)...but he had OFFENSIVE arts on par with an Appraisal ducal scion on top of the defense.
...which I suppose he IS.

I think this comes down to the fact that we went for a support and crowd control focused build than anything else. We thrive in one-on-many and many-on-many battles. Like, compare our preliminary performance with Ji Rong's.

The fact that we're also somewhat competent in 1-on-1 fights is more down to Ling Qi's talent, drugs, and the Dao of the Spreadsheet.

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Our 1v1 skills are FSS and TRF, both tutor granted.
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