Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[JowKeen]

I don't believe there has been any connections between the stability of your dantain and your actual talent.

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explicitly the age debuff is a debuff against your "talent". If you have less talent, you have less time before you degrade to Literally Cannot Cultivate.
The more talent you have, the longer it takes to degrade all the way.

Qingge broke through relatively quickly. Remember, she isn't in Argent Sect but she broke through at the same speed as some of the students there. And this is with 10-15 years of the debuff grinding away, assuming the debuff starts somewhere between 15-20

Veekie is also correct that someone who has not started to cultivate by 18, with no contacts/resources, is probably not going to be picked up by the MoI who are looking for threats. I'm not sure Qingge is Talent 6. But being somewhere between 4-6 is probable, given the speed we saw Argent Sect students going and how fast mom was without Argent Sect support.

People are overestimating the difficulty of ascending (given proper resources). Our problem is we're on a time crunch and matched to Ducals. Qingge has plenty of time, and is not in competition with anyone but her own desire to be better.

On top of that, one of the important things we learned while cultivating in Forge was to not overdo it when we could not cultivate efficiently anymore. I would assume that even pushing the limits, Qingge will end up having time for other things once she gets to Gold and Red both. Time is just more efficient when you sleep and eat less often. This is even more true in Yellow Silver, and so as long as she is continuing at a decent pace we can assume that she'll end up being able to do both just fine.

I think people forget just how much time we spent not cultivating when we were in Red. It started being heavily penalized after a certain amount of actions, and so we ended up with a lot of time to do other things even pushing to the limit.

We just were required to do a lot of other things at the same time. Combat, literacy, formations, politics, social, and a lot of training of Suyin and Su Ling. And even then we were playing our flute for a cooldown/hobby before we got FVM.

 

[Valmond]

The Gu were able to break their contract with the Fan due to cultivation.

It probably wouldn't be out of the question to include some sort of "Way comparability" clause which is a thinly veiled "does my son actually like your daughter" on top of actually meaning Way compatibility.

Hell, those clauses might be standard, we've done absolutely no research on this and Xiulan/Meizhen/Renxiang are terrible at not knowing what we don't know.

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So what you are saying is "no marriages unless people want it"?
Gu Xiulan hated her fiance, so i doubt that kind of clause is standard.

 

[JohnnieBoy123]

Not sure where you are getting this. WoG on this? Cant really say much atm on the info I got.

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This is what I was drawing on

"I am glad that I can provide her and my sister with comfort and safety. I am glad that I can keep them close. Is it troubling for you?" Ling Qi said, reaching for the door. "I know your uncles came to visit last year, but did your parents?"

"No," Xuan Shi replied. It was surprisingly curt.

Ling Qi winced. "I apologize for my presumption. I didn't mean to offend. Are- Do they…" she stumbled on her words. Ling Qi cursed internally, she'd gone and made a mistake again.

"Miss Ling did not offend. I do not know their faces, so there is no pain in absence," Xuan Shi replied evenly. "This one is grateful for the attention given by the honored Admirals."

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I remember there being a discussion surrounding this about how they are raised in creches but I'm having trouble finding it.

Edit: that may have just been speculation?

 

[Vanguard_D]

I remember there being a discussion surrounding this about how they are raised in creches but I'm having trouble finding it.

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Ah... well I cant say anything yet.

Also it is the Zheng that got creche.

 

[OneArmedYeti]

Gu Xiulan hated her fiance, so i doubt that kind of clause is standard.

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Oof. Fair, though I'd also note that they were still teenagers. The Gu may have taken those concerns more seriously if the wedding was imminent.

So what you are saying is "no marriages unless people want it"?

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I'm not really interested in looking for an active desire for the match but in avoiding an active distaste.

 

[Horium]

So what you are saying is "no marriages unless people want it"?
Gu Xiulan hated her fiance, so i doubt that kind of clause is standard.

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Xiulan didn't hate Yu, at the start. She prefered heavily (to put it mildly) Jian, but she didn't hate Yu, despite his flaws.
Indeed, I would describe her starting stance as semi-fond tolerance.

It was only when Yu proved weak and unambitious, which reminded her of her worst fears/complexes about herself, in combination with the stress of Jian's rejection and Ling Qi's eclipsing her ability, that she started being openly antagonistic.

 

[Valmond]

Xiulan didn't hate Yu, at the start. She prefered heavily (to put it mildly) Jian, but she didn't hate Yu, despite his flaws.
Indeed, I would describe her starting stance as semi-fond tolerance.

It was only when Yu proved weak and unambitious, which reminded her of her worst fears/complexes about herself, in combination with the stress of Jian's rejection and Ling Qi's eclipsing her ability, that she started being openly antagonistic.

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And it was not enough to release her from the betrothal, she had to prove herself too valuable to loose.

I'm not really interested in looking for an active desire for the match but in avoiding an active distaste.

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Well my interest is in not forcing people into unconsenting marriages, let alone sex.
Consent given under coercion, no matter how mild, does not count.
And that includes the "well you would be really helping your family and our subjects" suggestions as far as i am concerned.

 

[OneArmedYeti]

Well my interest is in not forcing people into unconsenting marriages, let alone sex.
Consent given under coercion, no matter how mild, does not count.
And that includes the "well you would be really helping your family and our subjects" suggestions as far as i am concerned.

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Telling someone the political considerations surrounding a potential marriage isn't coercion, it's supplying them with information.

This enhances consent, as it allows them to make the decision from a more informed standpoint.

Obviously that same phrasing could be used to be a manipulative villain, depending on the implication and subtext, obviously Ling Qi shouldn't do that.

Providing our descendants with the context needed to make a good decision is not coercion.

We should obviously try to avoid raising descendants so weak that they break down in the face of a complex political situation.

 

[RebelYell]

Eh the courting will be long and there'll be plenty of suitors for the clan to choose from since were Cai's retainer, eventually there'll be a good match and we can do the shotgun wedding then go back to the important things in life- snorting drugs, talking to ice ladies, and wondering why there's more kids run-in around after cultivating for a decade.

 

[Valmond]

Telling someone the political considerations surrounding a potential marriage isn't coercion, it's supplying them with information.

This enhances consent, as it allows them to make the decision from a more informed standpoint.

Obviously that same phrasing could be used to be a manipulative villain, depending on the implication and subtext, obviously Ling Qi shouldn't do that.

Providing our descendants with the context needed to make a good decision is not coercion.

We should obviously try to avoid raising descendants so weak that they break down in the face of a complex political situation.

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If you do not let this man fuck you, people may die (and it is your duty to protect those people).
Totally not coercive.
Arranged marriages are fucked up institution, i want no part in it if i can avoid it, and especially do not want to afflict it upon others.
No matter how carefully Ling Qi might handle them, they are a seed of a toxic fruit, let's not leave it to flourish after us.

 

[RebelYell]

Not like arranged marriages by themselves are the devils work, there are people who are happy with the whole arrangement without drama mucking it all up and being a hovering matriarch about to axe the would be spouce.

 

[Valmond]

Not like arranged marriages by themselves are the devils work, there are people who are happy with the whole arrangement without drama mucking it all up and being a hovering matriarch about to axe the would be spouce.

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There are people happy in plenty of fucked up situations.
If any of our clan members want someone to arrange marriage for them, they can ask and provide a list of things they are looking for, i am certain there are people we can hire to find them spouces.

 

[OneArmedYeti]

If you do not let this man fuck you, people may die (and it is your duty to protect those people).

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Situations are never that simple, but if it's true how does not recognizing it help ? Anyone who hides an uncomfortable reality from themselves is worse than blind.

Totally not coercive.

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Yeah, turns out your strawman burns. Whodathunkit?

Arranged marriages are fucked up institution, i want no part in it if i can avoid it, and especially do not want to afflict it upon others.
No matter how carefully Ling Qi might handle them, they are a seed of a toxic fruit, let's not leave it to flourish after us.

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I don't really disagree with anything you're saying irl.

It's not the same here because absent are the aspects that make it truly disgusting in real life: the traditional age and power disparity between the husband and wife.

I know the worst case scenario is shit, but Ling Qi won't suddenly be cruel in this one aspect of dealing with her family when she's kind with the rest.

 

[Valmond]

It's not the same here because absent are the aspects that make it truly disgusting in real life: the traditional age and power disparity between the husband and wife.

I know the worst case scenario is shit, but Ling Qi won't suddenly be cruel in this one aspect of dealing with her family when she's kind with the rest.

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But it's ok when we do it.
No, i don't care how carefully we try to square the circle so that it's fine, this once. Because what makes it truly disgusting in real life is not some age or power disparity (one of which generally was not really that major, and other was more due to gender roles), it's consent.
And no amount of twisting will remove the fact that being told you should think carefully about marrying someone because it would really help your loved ones by an authority figure is inherently coercive, especially in a situation where that help might translate to saving lives.

The kindest thing is to not get involved with the shitshow that is arranged marriages.

 

[Anderein]

But it's ok when we do it.
No, i don't care how carefully we try to square the circle so that it's fine, this once. Because what makes it truly disgusting in real life is not some age or power disparity (one of which generally was not really that major, and other was more due to gender roles), it's consent.
And no amount of twisting will remove the fact that being told you should think carefully about marrying someone because it would really help your loved ones by an authority figure is inherently coercive, especially in a situation where that help might translate to saving lives.

The kindest thing is to not get involved with the shitshow that is arranged marriages.

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My dude, I appreciate that this is a thing for you, but... Okay. Say that someone is going hungry on the streets. You offer them $5 to sweep your house porch. Is this evil of you?

Well, by your logic, it's coercion: they need to eat, and they can eat if they do your task, therefore you're coercing them. But you aren't imposing the fundamental situation. They are hungry as a result of existing within the world, not because you sweep down and snatch food out of their mouth so long as they aren't willing to pick up a broom. Would it be better for you to just give them the money, no strings attached? Of course. But people aren't required to do things just because they would be morally better than what they are already doing, or you would be working to donate money to poor orphans every free second instead of posting on the internet. Interacting with a situation that someone else made doesn't automatically make you evil because you don't act in a maximally generous fashion, because that's an impossible standard to live up to.

Is there a line where you should be required to be a level of good for it to be "helping" instead of "polite coercion"? Yes. That's what everyone else is saying, and it's what you're not, because your argument boils down to the fact that every form of arranged marriage is a violation of consent and therefore some level of evil. If that's the case, then go sign up for Mechanical Turk, because your free time could be solving someone else's food insecurity. Otherwise, find a more reasonable argument.

 

[Valmond]

My dude, I appreciate that this is a thing for you, but... Okay. Say that someone is going hungry on the streets. You offer them $5 to sweep your house porch. Is this evil of you?

Well, by your logic, it's coercion: they need to eat, and they can eat if they do your task, therefore you're coercing them. But you aren't imposing the fundamental situation. They are hungry as a result of existing within the world, not because you sweep down and snatch food out of their mouth so long as they aren't willing to pick up a broom. Would it be better for you to just give them the money, no strings attached? Of course. But people aren't required to do things just because they would be morally better than what they are already doing, or you would be working to donate money to poor orphans every free second instead of posting on the internet. Interacting with a situation that someone else made doesn't automatically make you evil because you don't act in a maximally generous fashion, because that's an impossible standard to live up to.

Is there a line where you should be required to be a level of good for it to be "helping" instead of "polite coercion"? Yes. That's what everyone else is saying, and it's what you're not, because your argument boils down to the fact that every form of arranged marriage is a violation of consent and therefore some level of evil. If that's the case, then go sign up for Mechanical Turk, because your free time could be solving someone else's food insecurity. Otherwise, find a more reasonable argument.

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Yes? That is coercion.
Which is why i support UBI, strong social safety networks, universal free healthcare and large number of other policies.
Nobody should be in a situation where they have to work or starve.

Also, why would i demand they go sweep my porch instead of just giving them the $5?

That said, i would not call sweeping a porch and marriage equivalent.
Unless it's a pretty huge porch, in which case that $5 is way too little.

 

[OneArmedYeti]

But it's ok when we do it.
No, i don't care how carefully we try to square the circle so that it's fine, this once. Because what makes it truly disgusting in real life is not some age or power disparity (one of which generally was not really that major, and other was more due to gender roles), it's consent.
And no amount of twisting will remove the fact that being told you should think carefully about marrying someone because it would really help your loved ones by an authority figure is inherently coercive, especially in a situation where that help might translate to saving lives.

The kindest thing is to not get involved with the shitshow that is arranged marriages.

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Ling Qi could obviously convince any of her mortal children to do anything if she sets her mind to it.

She should obviously avoid destroying free will with relative UUU Presence.

In the face of that mountain of a social issue working around how to educate them about their options without overly influencing them is a cakewalk.

I know that this sort of situation could, and probably usually does in setting, form a cage of obligation that funnels anyone not willing to risk being disowned into doing what their Aunt hinted that their Grandfather would "greatly appreciate".

I trust Ling Qi, with her history with intimacy issues and the Insights she's building so far, to not do that before we even get into the fact that this issue would involve a forty page debate making sure Biyu or the hypothetical child in question got everything they ever wanted.

 

[JohnnieBoy123]

That said, i would not call sweeping a porch and marriage equivalent.
Unless it's a pretty huge porch, in which case that $5 is way too little.

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And the person you hired would probably do something clever like divert a river over it anyway, Augeas.

 

[Valmond]

Ling Qi could obviously convince any of her mortal children to do anything if she sets her mind to it.

She should obviously avoid destroying free will with relative UUU Presence.

In the face of that mountain of a social issue working around how to educate them about their options without overly influencing them is a cakewalk.

I know that this sort of situation could and probably usually does in setting form a cage of obligation that funnels anyone not willing to risk being disowned into doing what their Aunt hinted that their Grandfather would "greatly appreciate".

I trust Ling Qi, with her history with intimacy issues and the Insights she's building so far, to not do that before we even get into the fact that this issue would involve a forty page debate making sure Biyu or the hypothetical child in question got everything they every wanted.

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Or, or, and i know this is a novel concept.
Ling Qi could, due to her background, realize how messed up arranged marriages are and just go "Nope" on all of that.

And the person you hired would probably do something clever like divert a river over it anyway, Augeas.

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Should have sent them to kill the nemean lion instead or something.

Saying that consent cannot coexist with scarcity dilutes the meaning of consent into nonsense.

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Recognicing coercive nature of capitalistic systems does not dilute the meaning.
We are potentially holding someones survival over their head in order to coerce them to do our pidding in this scenario.
Just give them the $5.

 

[SoothingCoffee]

My dude, I appreciate that this is a thing for you, but... Okay. Say that someone is going hungry on the streets. You offer them $5 to sweep your house porch. Is this evil of you?

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That doesn't seem very equivalent-like, not gonna lie. Also, can't say it's evil or shit, but it is still kinda shifty to even do that -- like, walk up to a beggar, and tell them you'd give them 5 bucks to clean your porch? Why not just give 'em the 5 bucks as is?

I'm also with Valmond here. Going "hey, you can do whatever you want, nobody's forcing you, but if you do this, then everything would go great" -- no matter how earnest you are, that is still coercion. And putting that person in that sort of situation to begin with is kinda shitty in general?

 

[memoryofglory]

explicitly the age debuff is a debuff against your "talent". If you have less talent, you have less time before you degrade to Literally Cannot Cultivate.
The more talent you have, the longer it takes to degrade all the way.

Qingge broke through relatively quickly. Remember, she isn't in Argent Sect but she broke through at the same speed as some of the students there. And this is with 10-15 years of the debuff grinding away, assuming the debuff starts somewhere between 15-20

Veekie is also correct that someone who has not started to cultivate by 18, with no contacts/resources, is probably not going to be picked up by the MoI who are looking for threats. I'm not sure Qingge is Talent 6. But being somewhere between 4-6 is probable, given the speed we saw Argent Sect students going and how fast mom was without Argent Sect support.

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Where did you get the idea that Qingge is at all keeping pace with even the least impressive students at the Argent Sect? It took her about 19 weeks/5 months to awaken, even the worst of Elder Su's students managed that feat in a month or two IIRC. Cultivating at all is impressive for her age, but you're exaggerating a lot.

 

[Anderein]

Yes? That is coercion.
Which is why i support UBI, strong social safety networks, universal free healthcare and large number of other policies.
Nobody should be in a situation where they have to work or starve.

Also, why would i demand they go sweep my porch instead of just giving them the $5?

That said, i would not call sweeping a porch and marriage equivalent.
Unless it's a pretty huge porch, in which case that $5 is way too little.

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Come on, really? Don't read the first 20% of the argument and then stop. Did you even read the rest of the second paragraph?

Again: if you should "just give them the $5," then you have a great many worldly possessions that you aren't giving to the poor, as evinced by the fact you're posting here. Even if you're doing this on a phone, and we say that you should have one, your free time is one more resource. Where's the reasonable line between what you're doing and what they're doing? There is one, right?

Please engage with the actual argument. Is interacting with a evil situation itself evil if you aren't maximally generous? Yes or no.

 

[BungieONI]

*ignoring the above conversation*

Now that we're going for the offensive mission, one thing I'm hoping is that we have time to cultivate Beast King's Savage Dirge before combat actually starts in this coming war arc. I want to see General's Attendant in use, either to save a lower down commander or CRX. Preferably CRX since that's a big Loyalty Flex if coupled with Ling Qi's own efforts otherwise.

Overall I think the danger of the offensive route is probably more equally balanced between the Sect and the Cloud Tribes because they can both field their fourth realms with relative impunity and both have reason to do so. This does leave the possibility that when we start fighting that the Cyans on both sides will be present which presents a sort of collateral danger not found in the Shishigui underground option where when stuff starts it begins with them possibly having realm advantage or fielding more Cyan equivalents.

I'm actually really interested to see if Ren-ren has been able to come up with anything that works well with what Ling Qi does specifically that branch a bit from where she has been going so far.

E: I wonder what arts on her part might support Ling Qi the best. Perhaps something kind of like WHR, which prevents Ling Qi's spool up from being disrupted, essentially using a disruptor to counter potential other disruptors.

 

[memoryofglory]

*ignoring the above conversation*

Now that we're going for the offensive mission, one thing I'm hoping is that we have time to cultivate Beast King's Savage Dirge before combat actually starts in this coming war arc. I want to see General's Attendant in use, either to save a lower down commander or CRX. Preferably CRX since that's a big Loyalty Flex if coupled with Ling Qi's own efforts otherwise.

Overall I think the danger of the offensive route is probably more equally balanced between the Sect and the Cloud Tribes because they can both field their fourth realms with relative impunity and both have reason to do so. This does leave the possibility that when we start fighting that the Cyans on both sides will be present which presents a sort of collateral danger not found in the Shishigui underground option where when stuff starts it begins with them possibly having realm advantage or fielding more Cyan equivalents.

I'm actually really interested to see if Ren-ren has been able to come up with anything that works well with what Ling Qi does specifically that branch a bit from where she has been going so far.

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I wouldn't say it's evenly balanced, the sect has the initiative launching a raid here, and will deploy forces that should be able to overwhelm and capture the Cloud tribe targets. Unless the Cloud tribe is laying a trap for us in which case its the other way around.

 

[Valmond]

Come on, really? Don't read the first 20% of the argument and then stop. Did you even read the rest of the second paragraph?

Again: if you should "just give them the $5," then you have a great many worldly possessions that you aren't giving to the poor, as evinced by the fact you're posting here. Even if you're doing this on a phone, and we say that you should have one, your free time is one more resource. Where's the reasonable line between what you're doing and what they're doing? There is one, right?

Please engage with the actual argument. Is interacting with a evil situation itself evil if you aren't maximally generous? Yes or no.

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No, i am not going to interact with an argument that is intentionally idiotic.
Coercing someone to clean your porch is not the same as coercing them to marry or have sex.