Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

[Erebeal]

I can't help but feel that "we need to defeat them fast so we can go and do the same elsewhere" is even more arrogant.

You think that not only are we so amazingly OP that we can single-handedly scatter this force without trouble, but that we can then go on to do it again and again? Really?

 

[Kellopyy]

One of the basic setting narrative and mechanical conceits is that numbers matter. Ling Qi is better against numbers than is typical due to the nature of her arts, but she's not immune. The hidden enemy doesn't need to be a Green 6 super bullshit kryptonite build to be a threat; they could be another Appraisal and stall out a solo Ling Qi, in combination with the other enemy Greens, with the right tactics.

And the problem with counting on Ling Qi's offensive to run interference for our allies' defensive gains is our allies are already seriously straining under less than the full weight of the enemy's forces. Additionally, the enemy has the superior mobility to withdraw or redeploy their forces in ways our allies can't keep up with. The premise of Let them come is using Ling Qi's mobility to match their's and prevent this. Having Ling Qi charge the enemy means our side doesn't have anyone who can do that. There's no clear reason they couldn't pull back their Greens to deal with her without a huge amount of opportunity cost- our allies aren't likely to catch up, and might have trouble asisting us in the sky if we're meeting the enemy where they are anyway.

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Situation is rather dire - I tend to agree with your assessment on that they can pull back their forces after they have recovered from initial shock if they are Driven before Ling Qi. It is just that I think that they are perfectly capable of bogging us down should we Let them come while achieving objectives elsewhere. I mean while Ling Qi can use mobility to support whole defender group I think that it means she is limited by their collective mobility if she remains within range to support them. So delaying us and redirecting forces elsewhere is still on table after we make our debut on battlefield.

 

[tenchifew]

I can't help but feel that "we need to defeat them fast so we can go and do the same elsewhere" is even more arrogant.

You think that not only are we so amazingly OP that we can single-handedly scatter this force without trouble, but that we can then go on to do it again and again? Really?

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I think most people here are not talking about defeating the enemy outright. What we can do is an equivalent to a cavalry charge to confuse and scatter the enemy, a tried and true tactic throughout history.

Shock and awe.

 

[Huo Yuhao]

I can't help but feel that "we need to defeat them fast so we can go and do the same elsewhere" is even more arrogant.

You think that not only are we so amazingly OP that we can single-handedly scatter this force without trouble, but that we can then go on to do it again and again? Really?

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I get your point and Abeo's, but the narrative seems to indicate it's a possibility that Ling Qi might be considering. It certainly won't be without trouble, and by the time we get to the other villages, we might not be in a condition to help that much. However, we have even less of a chance to help the other villages if we get involved in a protracted battle here. I suppose it's possible that the battles in the other villages end up lasting even longer, giving us an opportunity to support them even with "Let them come." I'm not sure how likely this is.

I'll be honest in that my main reasons for supporting "Drive them before you" are narrative-based. I'm still not sure which option is the best otherwise. If I forget about the narrative entirely, including Ling Qi's suspicions and the basic plan Hanyi suggested, I'd probably go with "Let them come."

 

[tenchifew]

I get your point and Abeo's, but the narrative seems to indicate it's a possibility that Ling Qi might be considering. It certainly won't be without trouble, and by the time we get to the other villages, we might not be in a condition to help that much. However, we have even less of a chance to help the other villages if we get involved in a protracted battle here. I suppose it's possible that the battles in the other villages end up lasting even longer, giving us an opportunity to support them even with "Let them come." I'm not sure how likely this is.

I'll be honest in that my main reasons for supporting "Drive them before you" are narrative-based. I'm still not sure which option is the best otherwise. If I forget about the narrative entirely, including Ling Qi's suspicions and the basic plan Hanyi suggested, I'd probably go with "Let them come."

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This.
Were this the only theater to consider, I would vote to "let them come". It is explicitly not.
We are to not only defend this village, but others as well, and suspect that our original location is in danger of an ambush. Time is very much a precious resource here, and arguably the main objective for the barbarians here is to bind as much defenders as possible to this location for as long as possible. If this is the case, than "letting them come" is basically handing them a victory over right then and there.

 

[AbeoLogos]

Situation is rather dire - I tend to agree with your assessment on that they can pull back their forces after they have recovered from initial shock if they are Driven before Ling Qi. It is just that I think that they are perfectly capable of bogging us down should we Let them come while achieving objectives elsewhere. I mean while Ling Qi can use mobility to support whole defender group I think that it means she is limited by their collective mobility if she remains within range to support them. So delaying us and redirecting forces elsewhere is still on table after we make our debut on battlefield.

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Our goal isn't to wipe out the enemy. It's to protect the villages. If they can just redeploy if we take a more measured offensive, what's stopping them from doing the same after we scare them off, assuming we can? Ling Qi can't and won't be chasing them down. She has other priorities. If they split off a significant portion of their forces to go somewhere else, Ling Qi doesn't need to stick around, she could go somewhere else herself. And, like, even if they go elsewhere, they're spending their time travelling to other objects, they're still not actually currently murdering people right in front of us. I'd count that as an improvement.

This argument rests on a dichotomy where Ling Qi's success can only have value if she charges them, which I feel is a false one. Especially because the failure state you're outlining in Let them come is one of the main goals of the other vote- namely, making them fuck off from the village.

I get your point and Abeo's, but the narrative seems to indicate it's a possibility that Ling Qi might be considering. It certainly won't be without trouble, and by the time we get to the other villages, we might not be in a condition to help that much. However, we have even less of a chance to help the other villages if we get involved in a protracted battle here. I suppose it's possible that the battles in the other villages end up lasting even longer, giving us an opportunity to support them even with "Let them come." I'm not sure how likely this is.

I'll be honest in that my main reasons for supporting "Drive them before you" are narrative-based. I'm still not sure which option is the best otherwise. If I forget about the narrative entirely, including Ling Qi's suspicions and the basic plan Hanyi suggested, I'd probably go with "Let them come."

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I think proactively making the calculation to sacrifice this village's welfare through a high-risk maneuver that doesn't prioritize the village and risks the high-mobility response asset you value so much is a flawed tactical and strategic choice. Erebeal is right that it's arrogance. If Ling Qi's motivation is to not stay bogged down so she can go help elsewhere, throwing herself at the bulk of the enemy solo is reckless and undermines it. The inescapable fact is the price of that gamble is the lifeblood of our present allies here and now. The logic for it being a choice driven by the desire to help just doesn't bear out: it requires her to diminish her help immediately and seriously risk her ability to help in the broader context.

It's more likely a vengeance-driven choice, in narrative terms. She's seen the suffering of the villagers, so she wants/needs to hurt the enemy. The price of that, of her hide or those of her struggling allies, is secondary to that motive. We had Ling Qi dwelling on Forest King/Bloody Moon dream imagery in this update, in response to the state of the village, so it should definitely be in play. I think it's a bad thematic decision. I think a somber evaluation of circumstances points at the charge being driven by more than the practical concerns, to the detriment of the practical considerations. I don't think it's the product people think they're buying.

 

[Kian]

[X] Drive them before you

 

[cerumano]

[X] Drive them before you

 

[Zeful]

[x] Let them come

 

[AbeoLogos]

I want to expand on one aspect of the thematic underpinnings for either choice.

The spectre of the Forest King dream has been raised by Ling Qi's recalled imagery from it. Which, uh, specifically was imagery of "her" killing and eating humans indiscriminately, which left something of a bad taste in her mouth. Given that, it seems awkward for her to discard the immediate suffering of the villagers and their defenders as secondary to striking at the enemy's heart. How exactly is that character decision resolving in the context of the dream's echo in this moment of decision? It seems likely it's because she's incensed at the violence against the village, which I've seen people point out as a positive because it means she's caring about other people as relevant entities worthy of consideration. That's not entirely untrue, but the problem with using it as motivation to charge the enemy in these exact circumstances is that there's still people in mortal peril right this second, and her vengeance-driven charge necessarily discards those actual real living people as a secondary priority. It makes the "cares about people" link ring hollow, as insincere.

What's more, evoking the Bloody Moon is narratively awkward. We were disowned by her, we don't even like her, and there doesn't seem to be a clear path forwards with making a choice so closely aligned with her, based on an event that is already a bit of an unresolved bundle of trauma and awkwardness. It's adding more complication to an unclear character hook, with no obvious or possibly even tenable resolution, without apparently adding anything of value. Unless the Bloody Moon angle is totally ignored in the resolution of the event, but that would just be massively silly and actively tossing established hooks to the side for no reason.

A more compelling approach to the raised traumatic dream, I think, is for Ling Qi to channel that anger into striking against the barbarians alongside Shen Hu to carve out a zone of safety for the civilians she failed to defend or advocate for in the dream. It might be a bit corny, but it uses the relevant narrative prompts, and at least it's actually coherent instead of, frankly, a self-contradictory edge-fest. Plus, actually treating people as relevant in both the sense that efforts should be taken to preserve their lives and that their contributions to battle are relevant rather than Ling Qi being convinced the optimal path is soloing everything forever.

 

[TimEd]

Given that, it seems awkward for her to discard the immediate suffering of the villagers and their defenders as secondary to striking at the enemy's heart.

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but that isnt the only lesson she has learned. One bit that striking forward can bank on, is on having confidence in her allies abilities (like what she did with Zhengui).

You cant really say any of the choices are "worse" fit for her, you just have to decide what she would grow into from this choice.

 

[AbeoLogos]

but that isnt the only lesson she has learned. One bit that striking forward can bank on, is on having confidence in her allies abilities (like what she did with Zhengui).

You cant really say any of the choices are "worse" fit for her, you just have to decide what she would grow into from this choice.

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Specifically in terms of the baggage from the Forest King dream, I can 100% confidently say charging the enemy is objectively worse in narrative terms. It creates a further muddling of an already tangled messy bundle of trouble, without any real contribution of value to it. Just self-contradiction and probably self-loathing later on.

You're right that Ling Qi has learned other lessons since, and I wouldn't have immediately jumped to the Forest King/Bloody Moon connection in relation to this event except that Ling Qi has already strongly evoked it. It's actively in play in the scene and its development, in a way nothing else has been emphasized. The idea that it won't be a significant dimension of character progression or meaning of choice in the event doesn't hold water in the context of its prominence in the scene already. That being any at all versus the total lack for anything else. I don't expect it to be the only factor, but it can't not be a primary factor, in terms of narrative continuity.

The other thing is her various other philosophies probably more ably align with Let them come? Like her TRF insight, or advanced insight, or even SCS insight for the plan's dynamism. FVM seems valid at first glance, but the fact that charging the enemy takes on relative risk on behalf of the people we're supposed to defend undermines it, and FSS's doesn't seem applicable outside of keeping determination in the face of setbacks, which is neutral. She learns non-insight lessons too, but those are the easiest to hit(and remember).

Specifically on the matter of having confidence in her allies abilities, you can criticize both paths. With one, she's trusting her allies to not die, yes, but taking on the burden of fighting half the force by herself. With the other, she's dedicating herself to their protection, yes, but is also acting on the premise that their power wedded to her own is important and potent enough to be her primary goal in resolving the conflict favorably. She's gotten a bit snobby about other cultivators, so that isn't a small thing.

 

[Jensaarai]

Also also, we have several arts that choke perception in a large area, so we can absolutely run interference across the battlefield.

Just because LQ would be fighting one target doesn't mean she's not giving vital assistance to whoever is nearby.

 

[TimEd]

Heck, charging forward is specifically done to break enemy formations.

And leaving any opponent to enact their plan with impunity when they have the High Ground is just plain madness.

And this group of Barbarians are clearly not fully prepared to deal with anyone able to battle it out in the skies (along with our massive AoE).

Lastly, remember that bit about her worrying about convenient timings? What if the enemy just stalls for time and attacks in force somewhere else?

 

[OneArmedYeti]

So....

Do we know who's normally out here doing this?

 

[AbeoLogos]

Heck, charging forward is specifically done to break enemy formations.

And leaving any opponent to enact their plan with impunity when they have the High Ground is just plain madness.

And this group of Barbarians are clearly not fully prepared to deal with anyone able to battle it out in the skies (along with our massive AoE).

Lastly, remember that bit about her worrying about convenient timings? What if the enemy just stalls for time and attacks in force somewhere else?

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What is the step after breaking the formation? What's the plan? Typically after you break an enemy formation, you mop them up, take prisoners, or just let them run disorganized into the countryside.

In our context, we won't have organized troops behind us to help with the run down. They'll be busy with the skirmishing fight that we've left behind. Breaking an enemy formation is brutally effective when you can capitalize on it, but I don't feel that's really the case in our circumstances. It's relatively likely the battlefield devolves into a massive scrum that favors the more numerous, and mobile, nomads. It also wouldn't really be faster.

 

[DeusExBritannia]

A wraith with eyes of flickering silver and glacier blue, shrouded in mist and night

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The description of her eyes immediately made me think of Jack from The Legend of Luther Strode.

 

[Asael]

[X] Drive them before you

 

[olamide]

[X] Let them come

Really feel like it will be a huge mess with lots of dead villagers if we charge forward. And aren't we supposed to be protecting them?

 

[TimEd]

Typically after you break an enemy formation, you mop them up, take prisoners, or just let them run disorganized into the countryside.

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Kill or drive them back ASAP. Dont forget that reinforcements are supposedly tight where we are. Driving these barbarians away as fast as possible will save objectively more people in the long run byhaving the defenders possibly rest longer or give their own reinforcements to other places who might be in need of help.

And NOT scattering them would do what exactly? Them sitting around doing nothing will still tie us down, which is already a loss if there is some greater enemy plan. And if they dont just plan on waiting it out, they could probably still do lots of stuff with any slack we give. Maybe a Greater Working of some sort, maybe harrassing a wider area, maybe baiting the defenses, maybe preparing to go on an offense of their own on any weakpoints they find.

 

[Echki]

[X] Drive them before you

 

[AbeoLogos]

Kill or drive them back ASAP. Dont forget that reinforcements are supposedly tight where we are. Driving these barbarians away as fast as possible will save objectively more people in the long run byhaving the defenders possibly rest longer or give their own reinforcements to other places who might be in need of help.

And NOT scattering them would do what exactly? Them sitting around doing nothing will still tie us down, which is already a loss if there is some greater enemy plan. And if they dont just plan on waiting it out, they could probably still do lots of stuff with any slack we give. Maybe a Greater Working of some sort, maybe harrassing a wider area, maybe baiting the defenses, maybe preparing to go on an offense of their own on any weakpoints they find.

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Drive them back where? We're not escorting them all the way to the Wall. According to your logic them going loose is bad, but it's also one of the things you're advocating for.

If they stick around this village, then they get counterattacked when Ling Qi's rallied the defenders. Then it's Ling Qi + allies vs the barbarian mob instead of just Ling Qi.

 

[Erebeal]

Plus, us overextending and getting hammered by everyone would give them even more room to play with.

 

[Huo Yuhao]

I had some free time, so I laid out the arguments for both sides as far as I can tell.

Drive Them Before You

Let Them Come

We need to save as much time as possible in order to be able to help the other villages. This is worth the high risk. Arriving late and injured is better than not arriving at all. This strategy may allow us to break the morale of the barbarians, which would help us greatly in managing the barbarians' larger numbers. Giving the barbarians more time to prepare might let them pull off a siegebreaker. The other option may allow barbarians to disengage and attack other villages. Ling Qi's mobility and slipperiness will make it hard for multiple barbarians to corner and attack her. Ling Qi has the skills to easily disengage if the situation turns south. Ling Qi's crowd control abilities aren't enough to handle this situation. Barbarians will still escape. The best defense is a good offense. Due to her low War skill, Ling Qi is bad at structured plans. This plan is is simpler and better fits Ling Qi's wraith-like image. The barbarian plan may be to tie up all the sect's fliers, which the other option would better allow. We will not lose much personally if this attack fails, and failure may lead to character development. Self-contradictory edge-fests are a Good Thing Actually (my argument in response to Abeo's) There are narrative hints that seem to favor this option i.e. Ling Qi's doubts and Hanyi's suggestion (my argument, but I now think it's pretty weak).

This option will allow us to save more civilians in our current village. The force we're facing is many times larger than ours. Mooks and numbers matter a lot more in this setting than others. Our side is already losing against less than the enemy's full weight. This option does not allow barbarians to disengage. The barbarians have better mobility than our allies. The idea is to counter this with our own mobility in this option. Even if the barbarians disengage, time spent traveling is time spent not attacking villages. Feigned retreats are explicitly cloud nomad tactics. We risk going on wild goose chases with the other option, wasting time even if we realize what's going on before too long. Staying safer here may put us in a better position to help other villages even with the additional time taken. Overextending will very likely cripple our ability to help the other villages. This option better conserves our forces in the medium to long term. Ling Qi's crowd control will help prevent barbarians from leaving. Ling Qi is very good at defense. In the other option, Ling Qi will not disengage as it would mean abandoning her allies. We don't know enough about the barbarians. The barbarians might have hidden aces or high-level Greens, which could hurt us more with the other option. The Forest King dream has been recalled and will be relevant. Ling Qi is likely to deal with this issue in a more positive way with this option, as opposed to a self-contradictory edge-fest in the other. It would be difficult for Hanyi to participate effectively in the other option as she would lack support.

Let me know if I missed or misunderstood any major arguments or otherwise represented them in a very biased manner (I probably did). Anyway, considering all of these arguments, Let Them Come's arguments do seem to be more logically sound.

[X] Let them come

 

[TimEd]

According to your logic them going loose is bad, but it's also one of the things you're advocating for.

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they can be scattered to anywhere they can be defeated in detail. There is a difference between a cohesive enemy group ravaging the surroundings compared to a disparate group.

And even with the damage they can do when broken, they wont be able to do much due to the forces already set up to protect the other villages. Dont forget that Ling Qi isnt the only one who has an area of responsibility.

It is obviously easier to deal with many small uncoordinated attacks compared to smaller number but focused penetrative (probably planned/coordinated) attacks.