- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Oh no what a tragedy, we don't have a pointless salt filled debate on whether Bihai is actually a decent person.
The Path Unending (A Cultivation Quest)
- Thread starter Vesvius
- Start date
- Original
-
- Tags
- original xianxia cultivation quest
Oh no what a tragedy, we don't have a pointless salt filled debate on whether Bihai is actually a decent person.
I think the issue was that nothing in the actual text indicated the merchant was a scammer. Was it likely? Absolutely. But there was nothing confirming it and there was also a plausible legitimate explanation for the price change.
Now, if we had a chance to see Bihai's internal monologue and maybe he notes that recent encounters involving this particular merchant ended with other sect members getting ripped off, that would have changed how I viewed the merchant. Or some event to that effect.
But now there's WoG that retroactively justifies the theft instead of the other way around I guess? Ultimately this is pretty minor but I understand why people feel a way about this.
Now, if we had a chance to see Bihai's internal monologue and maybe he notes that recent encounters involving this particular merchant ended with other sect members getting ripped off, that would have changed how I viewed the merchant. Or some event to that effect.
But now there's WoG that retroactively justifies the theft instead of the other way around I guess? Ultimately this is pretty minor but I understand why people feel a way about this.
- Location
- Brazil
I wouldn't mind that he is a petty thief, but without confirmation that he merchant is shady it comes off as crazy irresponsible of his part- assuming cultivators can't get away with fucking mortals by default.
Whether he's a price gouger is not really important. It was certainly implied.
It all comes down to what is just.
Is the fact that the merchant is a price gouger justification enough for significant theft of luxury items, implied threat/bodily harm, by an individual more powerful in powers and status to an individual less powerful?
A cultivator vs mortal, at that?
After all, Bihai could have walked away.
There were other merchants.
He was not stealing water or food but a luxury item. He doesn't need it per se.
And in the end, was Bihai's response proportionate?
Knight-Radiant
Recovering Rageaholic
That greatly depends on what an individual considers proportionate. Which greatly depends on a persons position, culture, etc... There is no great cosmic sense of Justice that can weigh in on things.
(Personally, when I think a truly disproportionate response... I'd say something more along the lines of beating the guy up for changing the price. Or ruining his reputation so he can't sell things anymore, etc... but that's just me)
And I disagree that there was nothing in the text to say that the guy was trying to gouge Bihai. It seemed pretty clear to me. And the fact that he was (as confirmed by Ct) Gouging IS a factor worth consideration because you can't just take an action out of context and label it as good/evil/etc. Context is the difference between murder and self defense as an example.
Did Bihai steal the diamonds to make a profit? No, Bihai needs diamonds to fight effectively. HE is a combat disciple who will spend alot of time fighting. Does Bihai NEEd diamonds? Well... maybe yes and maybe no, but NOT having a diamond could feasibly result in his injury or death. Does he have an alternative way to get what he needs? No Clue. For all we know, this is the only merchant he can afford, and Note, he tried to pay the agreed price before the dude started raising it. The merchant COULD have kept to the agreed upon price and walked away with money in his pocket, but chose to try and milk additional money out of a disciple because he saw him as an acceptable target. That made him an acceptable target to Bihai.
Instant Karma imo
But anyway.... at the end of the day, I enjoyed Bihai pulling an Aladdin with his lil Snek Abu and ruining a greedy jerk's day.
Last edited:
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
We have a long tradition of being ok with mildly super-powered people stealing from the abusive-but-technically-law-abiding. See Robin Hood, Batman, etc.
It definitely pushes him into a rogue archetype (a paladin's retribution would look different) but it doesn't seem evil to me.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Bihai doesn't need to go delving the deeps and using techniques that require diamonds. Just because you bought a rocket launcher doesn't mean you're entitled to free rockets. And the merchants excuses about price rises (might) be accurate
However, this is a cultivation story, not one invoking 21st century morality. And in that Genre, Bihai is totally supposed to read the hero in situations like this.
However, this is a cultivation story, not one invoking 21st century morality. And in that Genre, Bihai is totally supposed to read the hero in situations like this.
An interesting take, there is certainly an argument for the ammunition angle (medicine not really) but can you classify it as an urgent material?
Not really.
Sect is not at war, and Bihai has ways of using techs that don't include diamonds.
Robin Hood and Batman are quite different examples to each other, imho. Both are vigilantes sort of, but one is focused on theft and is fully unlawful (but considered legitimate and just) while the other is focused on crime fighting and is actually quasi-legal if not fully legal.
Also, a lot of Robin Hood legitimacy stems from the fact that both Prince John's rule is debatebly lawful, and that he gives the spoils he takes to the poor (rather than keeping it for himself).
One cannot and should not view the world with black and white lenses.
But, there are still degrees of gray to people, and this includes rogues.
I find Bihai's actions disproportionate and more morally wrong than morally right.
I don't mind him being like this. It'll not stop me from socializing him at some point of time (even though he never was a priority to me and remains such).
But it irks me that people try to pretend that he did no wrong.
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
a) those people also aren't enriching themselves over it and are instead distributing the wealth to the downtrodden (Robin Hood), nevermind the various other abuses his target is guilty of
b) Batman is most definitely not stealing from the rich, he's a vigilante which is an entirely different archetype
An excellent comparison to rockets!
But let me disagree just a tiny bit regarding cultivation stories.
In some cultivation stories, Bihai could be considered the hero.
In others, that heavily discourage punching down, he wouldn't be.
Frankly, it depends.
Last edited:
- Location
- Brazil
I mean, it was a cool 'heist', as it were. Snek apparently has a technique to eat way more than it physically should, which is only going to make it a better partner in crime for Bihai.
Not quite direct statement that merchant was trying to abuse Bihai.
In my opinion it was better when jt was just implied, not directly stated. It addedanother layer of uncertainty.
Anyway, even if we now know the merchant was indeed gouging prices. Bihai's action is not necessarily just.
If we had a Sidestory with Jin in place of Bihai I suppose that we'd all agree that Jin is a stealing bastard and abusive peace of shit.
I mean for anyone who reads subtext well it was pretty clear the merchant was taking our boy for a ride. Two talents the first time, that's close enough to what i'd imagine market price is to not be noteworthy. After all Ming Hui shelled out a lot for the eggs which were silver bullets for his cooking challenge, and several spirit beast parts were 2 talents each when we when hunting with Nokai. So uncut stones of uncertain Color or Clarity, without much anam on their own from a nearby mine that the sect has? Kinda high, not unbearably so, but still.
Then the next batch is 3 talents, that's a 50% mark up with no real drop is supply and likely an only small increase in demand as i assume even with all his fighting bihai took some time to go through his first batch. If something hit the sect's mines that hard for what would be junk stones in most cases, you can bet we'd hear about it. Doubly so since Diamonds are not all that valuable to cultivators, typically the thigns they want are filled with anam and this... isn't. It's still money to the mortal jewelers and mortal wealthy, but to a cultivator it's just a pretty stone normally. Then he jumps the price to FIVE talents, which is a huge mark up from even 3 without so much as a "I am sorry honored cultivator" which most sensible people would do in the face of an angry teenage demigod who could hand them their own ass as a matter of course.
The merchant was taking Bihai for a ride, not trying to keep repeat business, not trying to mend fences orvoid a confrontation. The entire conversation reads to me like the Merchant is using the poorer, less economically inclined disciples, aka the new kids, as people he can fleece quickly with shinies. He tried the same approach with Bihai, so he lost 1.5 talents (assuming he was telligng the truth on the estimate) of diamonds. Which cost him the talents he'd have gotten extra if he scammed Bihai successfully.
Now Bihai doing this to a person dealing in good faith who had a bad thing happen and now need to rise prices, that'd be evil. This, in my opinion while not entirely warranted why giving a jerkass merchant scam artist his just deserts.
Then the next batch is 3 talents, that's a 50% mark up with no real drop is supply and likely an only small increase in demand as i assume even with all his fighting bihai took some time to go through his first batch. If something hit the sect's mines that hard for what would be junk stones in most cases, you can bet we'd hear about it. Doubly so since Diamonds are not all that valuable to cultivators, typically the thigns they want are filled with anam and this... isn't. It's still money to the mortal jewelers and mortal wealthy, but to a cultivator it's just a pretty stone normally. Then he jumps the price to FIVE talents, which is a huge mark up from even 3 without so much as a "I am sorry honored cultivator" which most sensible people would do in the face of an angry teenage demigod who could hand them their own ass as a matter of course.
The merchant was taking Bihai for a ride, not trying to keep repeat business, not trying to mend fences orvoid a confrontation. The entire conversation reads to me like the Merchant is using the poorer, less economically inclined disciples, aka the new kids, as people he can fleece quickly with shinies. He tried the same approach with Bihai, so he lost 1.5 talents (assuming he was telligng the truth on the estimate) of diamonds. Which cost him the talents he'd have gotten extra if he scammed Bihai successfully.
Now Bihai doing this to a person dealing in good faith who had a bad thing happen and now need to rise prices, that'd be evil. This, in my opinion while not entirely warranted why giving a jerkass merchant scam artist his just deserts.
- Location
- Canada
The fact is that in the real world, there would be laws that prevent the merchant from playing with prices like that, because a verbal contract to sell in the future at a specific price on a specific date is still a legally binding contract and Bihai could sue him.
Now, to be fair the process of suing him would most likely be a loss of additional money on both sides, but the government (which in the real world is actually effective, rather than being uncaring assholes like a cultivation sect, because enforcable contract law is one of the foundations of society) would force the merchant to sell at 3 talents, and possibly also force him to pay for some of Bihai's legal fees.
Now, to be fair the process of suing him would most likely be a loss of additional money on both sides, but the government (which in the real world is actually effective, rather than being uncaring assholes like a cultivation sect, because enforcable contract law is one of the foundations of society) would force the merchant to sell at 3 talents, and possibly also force him to pay for some of Bihai's legal fees.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Sure, but you know Jin deserves that. The simple atrocities he's bound to do with them is a crime in and of itself!
More seriously, our attitude toward Jin's is fundamentally irrational. A very bad yardstick for morality.
I honestly think this mostly comes from how we would view such an action in a high trust and reliable enforcement society like the West. I would agree with you if someone did this in the US. I don't agree with it in the story, and I wouldn't agree with it in a lower trust environment in the current world. A lot of enforcement in such places is 'don't stir shit because you'll eventually stir it with the wrong person' not 'don't stir shit because it's illegal and bad for your brand's image'. And that's better than no enforcement.
Friends, friends, you're forgetting a very important fact here! 'Twas not Bihai who took the diamonds, but rather Deadly Fang That Dwells Beneath Leaves of Sweet Basil. And Basil is a newborn snake. Now, surely we can all agree it is foolish to apply human laws and morality to a newborn snake, yes? It's not Basil's fault that he does not yet comprehend the ethics of capitalism in human society, and even if he did, why should he abide by them? He is the Jewel of the Grasslands! He is a law unto himself. All his actions are by definition righteous!
So you see, no crime has been committed, as it was Basil and not Bihai who acted, and Basil is legally, philosophically, and tautologically incapable of wrongdoing.
So you see, no crime has been committed, as it was Basil and not Bihai who acted, and Basil is legally, philosophically, and tautologically incapable of wrongdoing.
- Location
- Philippines
This is a xianxia world stealing is only a problem if you get caught and you stole from someone vastly more powerful than you. In a cultivation world the strong take and the weak weep.
- Location
- Yes
The merchant claimed it was a preliminary estimate. Estimates can reasonably change. Obviously Bihai could sue him. Unless he has proof that it wasn't an estimate, he doesn't have much of a chance of winning though. Of course the merchant doesn't have a case either. Even if he manages to get Bihai's possessions searched and his diamonds are actually found, Bihai could easily claim he acquired them from a different source.
That only changes my opinion of the merchant to be impressed at his bravery. However, I imagine a debate over the morality of price gouging would be better suited for a different thread.
CedeTheBees
Probably high right now
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Ngl, I'd prefer Bihai as a petty thief, especially a petty thief, than him just giving a dishonest merchant his comeuppance. It'd give his character some extra fun points
- Location
- 1st World Country
Free? He wanted to pay for it, but was suddenly informed that it was almost double the price.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
More than that. This is the second time the merchant had raised the price.
- Location
- Domino City
Bear in mind that one Talent is enough to purchase a small piece of land. We ain't dealing with pennies here.