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The Path Unending (A Cultivation Quest)

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thamuzz said:
Finish phases and accumulate insights. Insights seem to be a significant bottleneck.
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Yeah, and even if you do get an option that includes your core anam then the technique might not become what you want.
The Wood/Steel evolution of BSA would have become a Defender tech.

Which is probably why filtering is a thing. If that would have changed what kind of tech it is, we'd probably know by now.
 
Lucius Domitius said:
Removing Rain from the Searing Chariot on the other hand could have a direct benefit. While the technique might get weaker as well, it will likely be simpler to learn. That means we will get the stat gain faster, which is one of the reasons why we learned the technique in the first place.
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Probs not any faster. We have the pills to burn through the Rain aspect quickly already.
The Fire aspect growingly partly takes away any savings.
 
Vesvius said:
Ordinarily, when I teach this exercise, the aspect is replaced, but considering we would simply be removing without adding? The remaining aspects would attempt to fill the void, but they can only do so much.
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This indicates that the overall strength and anam need of the technique will drop by removing an aspect. Presumably we would end up with a lower anam to integration cost.

HousePet said:
Probs not any faster. We have the pills to burn through the Rain aspect quickly already.
The Fire aspect growingly partly takes away any savings.
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Maybe, but saving the pills while shaving the cost down will be a boon by itself. We can always use the pills in different ways if we keep them, so reducing the needed anam even a little and conserving some resources for a different use seems helpful.
 
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Vesvius on Jul 1, 2024 at 9:08 AM, finished with 105 posts and 79 votes.
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  • Voting
    • Vesvius said:
    Scheduled vote count started by Vesvius on Jul 1, 2024 at 9:08 AM, finished with 105 posts and 79 votes.
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    MY FIST CASTS FIREBALL!
     
    I've been thesis revising again, so my brain is in this mode... :|

    Vesvius said:
    but were we not passed his reservations
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    past

    Vesvius said:
    better than the disciples of
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    these

    Vesvius said:
    I will keep a weather eye out
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    Technically this does make sense, but you have to dig a bit to find its meaning. Seems a bit obscure and Daiyu doesn't have a top hat and monocle.
    an eager eye might be less obscure.

    Vesvius said:
    technique master hurdles over my head
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    Unless the technique master was upright when passing over Zhi's head, I think this should be hurtles.

    Vesvius said:
    spinning Chui Daos hammer
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    Dao's

    Vesvius said:
    warhammer Chu Dao became
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    Chui.
    (Sloppy hammer work in front of Master Warrior... *facepalm*)


    Pondering the Technique Master's assessments:
    I'm not sure why they were quick to conclude that Zhi's Path was discordant. Having distracting tricks and heavy blows is how he fights, as evidenced by The Charm In Full Flight. A charm user can add any aspect to their arsenal as well.
    I would like to get Master Traveler's opinion, as I feel like the Master's didn't understand the implications of Shatter The Mirror.
    To be Zhi is to be able to pull out something unusual for any situation.
     
    Zhi is actually talented in fighting without needing to rely as much on Charms but their techniques are a bit too rich to be used as just tricks and his core reserves are a bit lacking for him to do too much of that with the 10 percent increase in expending Anam breathing techniques. It also doesn't help that he tends to spam said techniques more than once if the first time doesn't work.

    He also doesn't really plan ahead too much and just wings it in fights by throwing himself at the same problem until it goes away or he runs out of fuel.

    Zhi isn't being efficient with what he has is my read since if you gutter out setting up tricks you might not even get a chance to land the finishing blow. And Zhi isn't good at team play strategies to make use of the set up other than 'I take left you take right'.

    Charm in Full Flight helps a lot in preserving Anam for that playstyle but everything else needs time to sort out and time is a premium for Time artists ironically due to their tendency to self destruct (and the ooc time limit as well) so a sense of urgency is felt on telling Zhi to fix his problems.
     
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    It is just that none of that has anything to do with his techniques being 'discordant'. Most of it is just that his anam pool isn't stronger and he hasn't integrated much outside of his strong hits.
    Switching his technique aspects doesn't even help with this.
     
    HousePet said:
    It is just that none of that has anything to do with his techniques being 'discordant'. Most of it is just that his anam pool isn't stronger and he hasn't integrated much outside of his strong hits.
    Switching his technique aspects doesn't even help with this.
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    I would presume that, long term, his Techniques being of so many different Anam types is problematic, and paring those down is needed. 14 different types of Anam (what we have right now) being a problem for long term growth is very plausible, and paring that down a bit may be useful. Like...I'm pretty sure there's an optimal number of Anam types and we're over it.

    Now, that might not matter right this second, but I suspect it does for advancement. Not in the sense of stopping it, but in the sense of being something that needs to be overcome, which this is giving us a head start on.
     
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    Warrior doesn't have a problem with Zhi integrating Charm in Full Flight despite it not having any of the core aspects in it either so besides the element having a host of techniques that actually synergize with one another might also be a thing. He even encourages incorporating it because it'd make Zhi's body strong enough to actually support his intended build.

    I keep thinking back to like how the Jin design their Charms and Zhuan has techniques designed to work together or in sequence.

    Zhi's stuff just does their own thing and hits stuff or leads up to hitting stuff.

    He already got told his design process to multiple Charms to use at once is problematic and now his techniques seem to be suffering the same thing.

    Also he literally learned most of his techniques from gacha or people handing it to him because they have opinions on what he needs and he just learns it because he doesn't want to disappoint them. I can sort of see he's too passive and just accepts things given rather than tries to look for them himself other than Chariot... and even then that one also had gacha involved and he picked the best the situation of random fumbling around had to offer.

    He's definitely discordant on those issues and the way to fix it would be to customize the techniques to better suit him in the long run which needs time and is in high demand.
     
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    Charm in Full Flight isn't an anam technique, so it doesn't have aspects and can't be an issue in that regard.

    Regarding too many aspects:
    Zhuan Kun is currently using loads as well. Nobody seems concerned.
    Mei Daiyu uses many as well, but seems to have all with a trace of Night in them. But then she picked up Emberdance Elergy at Proto-Farmer.
    Jai Fa uses mostly Steel and Blood. But went for a Mud technique and maybe others.
    Kumi only had half of her techniques matching her core when she started Farmer.
    As stated by Master Warrior, it only becomes an issue in the Teacher's Step. Going into Farmer with a diverse spread and honing the aspects later through evolution or filtration seems to be the standard path.
    So, I'm not seeing why this is an issue that a Soldier needs to deal with. Especially when he specifically cannot yet customize his techniques until he is more advanced.
     
    HousePet said:
    It is just that none of that has anything to do with his techniques being 'discordant'. Most of it is just that his anam pool isn't stronger and he hasn't integrated much outside of his strong hits.
    Switching his technique aspects doesn't even help with this.
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    What do you mean? Our core does in fact give us discounts on techniques with at least one of those aspects, both in learning them and in using them.

    Koguyra said:
    Warrior doesn't have a problem with Zhi integrating Charm in Full Flight despite it not having any of the core aspects in it either so besides the element having a host of techniques that actually synergize with one another might also be a thing.
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    In the case of Charm, it is a martial technique, it's not anam-based at all. Like, sure, it's not one that any Seated is ever going to learn because of the attribute requirement (Dexterity 4, whereas a Seated will likely peak at 2 if lucky), but Zhi is doing this purely body with his body, not involving any of his spirit.

    I agree with the rest of your point, though - Zhi's techniques are pretty... eclectic. Haphazard. Disorganized. Random.

    I don't think it's currently a huge deal, but it's definitely true that Zhi picked up these techniques basically as he went along just because they showed up. The Hummingbird's Dance was taught by Daiyu. Warhound's Cry was a gift from Nokai. The Stallion's Enclosed Garden was from our family. Worldstream was a gift from the Sen. The Twilight Horizon was from Ma Rongjie's inheritance. Blooming Spear of the Auroch and Shatter the Mirror were self-made, but based in part off of inspiration from the enemies we defeated.

    Just about the closest Zhi got to being able to plan out his techniques was choosing Shadow of the Prince and An Elegant Plume from Siani. Searing Chariot was... well, we should have tried to narrow it down further with "try to find a Smoke or Steel tech".
     
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    Also you can indeed customize techniques even at Soldier because that's what Insight gets you. Zhi definitely got a choice between all the Auroch evolutions to give him what he thinks he needs. It's still gambling but he can at least narrow down the outcomes.
     
    We only saw some of Zhuan Kun's anam techniques, and we don't know all of their aspects.

    His First Act uses Wind and Force. His Second Act (the one he finished us off with) uses Earth and Royalty. His Third Act presumably uses Fire given his description of it, but I would assume there's something else there. We saw him use his Fourth Act against the Resolute March guy, but we don't know its aspect.

    Given that his techniques are clearly following a theme, I would assume the rest of the acts round out the basic eight aspects, so that he can grow familiarized with them; so maybe his Fourth Act uses Light somehow, given its description of turning the Resolute March's guy's shadow against him?

    Well, the actually relevant point here is that we know his core has Growth and Force, and yet we have it confirmed that at least one of his techniques, the Second Act, doesn't have either of those aspects. So it's clearly not the end of the world for him to have at least one tech that doesn't feature either of them - perhaps it's more important that his techniques are evenly matched with one another and form part of the same theme?
     
    Parabola said:
    What do you mean? Our core does in fact give us discounts on techniques with at least one of those aspects, both in learning them and in using them.
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    The effective is minimal unless the aspect is switched to Time. But doing that would bottleneck training due to a lack of sources, which hardly helps with learning them.

    DeadmanwalkingXI said:
    Is he using 14 different Anam types? Because I do not recall nearly that many. I suspect the total maximum is not a super small number, but 14 seems a tad high.
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    We don't know all of his techniques. But we know one is Wind/Force, another is Earth/Royalty. The other two we have seen all we can guess is that one might be Fire/? and the other is Hunger or Shadow. Then there are at least two we haven't seen, based on the naming convention.
    He probably isn't up at 14 aspects, but based on the general pattern his minimum is 8 aspects. Could be up to 12 if the intention was to take good non-core techniques and evolve them to match his core during the Farmer's Step.
     
    HousePet said:
    We don't know all of his techniques. But we know one is Wind/Force, another is Earth/Royalty. The other two we have seen all we can guess is that one might be Fire/? and the other is Hunger or Shadow. Then there are at least two we haven't seen, based on the naming convention.
    He probably isn't up at 14 aspects, but based on the general pattern his minimum is 8 aspects. Could be up to 12 if the intention was to take good non-core techniques and evolve them to match his core during the Farmer's Step.
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    That seems very plausible. I don't think the cap is super low, I just think we're a bit past it, hence this advice. If 12 is the recommended cap at this level, then we are two types past it and could use a bit of pruning, y'know?
     
    HousePet said:
    The effective is minimal unless the aspect is switched to Time. But doing that would bottleneck training due to a lack of sources, which hardly helps with learning them.
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    I mean, it's fair to say it won't help enough in terms of number of actions to make our techs all partly Smoke or Steel, but narratively it absolutely helps in trying to make them more similar or helpful to one another, doesn't it?

    HousePet said:
    We don't know all of his techniques. But we know one is Wind/Force, another is Earth/Royalty. The other two we have seen all we can guess is that one might be Fire/? and the other is Hunger or Shadow. Then there are at least two we haven't seen, based on the naming convention.
    He probably isn't up at 14 aspects, but based on the general pattern his minimum is 8 aspects. Could be up to 12 if the intention was to take good non-core techniques and evolve them to match his core during the Farmer's Step.
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    He has at least 7 techniques:

    Vesvius said:
    "It is not time to begin integration of the Seventh Act yet," comes the immediate response.

    "I…" Mei Daiyu begins then stops, considering her words. "You have another technique you could be cycling for, correct?"

    "I do, but it is not time to strengthen it," Zhuan Kun reiterates. "The Saga must play out in order and it is not yet time to further integrate the Seventh Act."

    "But why?" I cannot help but ask. "Do your techniques build on each other? Does mastering one assist you with the next?"

    "The time of the Seventh Act has yet to come," is Zhuan Kun's final word on the subject. "Nor is it the time of the Sixth or the Fourth. It is the Fifth's time and no others."
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    Given this number I'd assume they're Warrior/Defender/Archer/Scholar/Monk/Sage/Traveler.

    But who knows, maybe there's an eighth to round out the basic eight aspects.
     
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    DeadmanwalkingXI said:
    That seems very plausible. I don't think the cap is super low, I just think we're a bit past it, hence this advice. If 12 is the recommended cap at this level, then we are two types past it and could use a bit of pruning, y'know?
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    Naturally evolving WC and SC to better fit Zhi's core would've taken care of that.
    Zhi isn't even a Complete Soldier yet.
    Unfortunately, the core evolution for BSA was another Defender. -_-

    Parabola said:
    I mean, it's fair to say it won't help enough in terms of number of actions, but narratively it absolutely helps in trying to make them more similar or helpful to one another, doesn't it?
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    Well yeah, it sort of makes sense narratively even though it is a tiny effect. But you did raise the mechanical effects.
    On the other hand, Steel seems to tend a lot towards being Defender. Having multiple techniques of the same category makes them similar but not really cohesive or helpful with each other. Complementary aspect/technique combinations seems more likely to produce harmony.
     
    Zhi's experience with Smoke helped with getting the Worldstream faster because Smoke and Wind is also very similiar with one another too as ephemeral and not at all solid. He also clearly had an easier time using it compared to the other two as well because of said understanding so I wonder if elements being similar to one another in some concept helps. And one of the insights for Smoke was that it needed Wind to become it rather than just ashes.

    You can use elemental opposites too as long as they somehow work together as pieces of a whole like Zhuan's set rather than just being in there because it was available.
     
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