Our people have no reason not to do it as our people in game dont know about ROM, this will only as far as our people know this will benefit us in income and trade
The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone
- Thread starter prometheus110
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Again I am not talking about the expansion I am talking about deliberately targeting ComStar with the intent to run them out of the Periphery. Which will only result in a war we don't even know is happening.
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[X] Plan Conference Call against the World.
its just business that will bring us massive profit for our people, hell we might even get the Successor States to come ask us to build a FTL network for them
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I'm done you seriously are not hearing what I am saying and there is no point in talking past each other anymore.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
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Showerthought.
One of ComStars methods of dealing with the Successor States has historically been the inflaming tensions of tensions between the IS powers and false flag attacks are not out of the norm for the organization. After all, if the powers are at war they are not developing, and if they are at war they are destroying infrastructure and technology, and in so doing allowing ComStar to become even stronger. If ComStar were indeed the ones behind the recent terrorist attacks then their objectives were likely as thus:
1.) The retrieval of Helghast technologies.
2.) The sabotage of Helghast research and development.
3.) Pitting Helghan into war with the Celestial Mandate.
If Helghan confronts the Celestial Mandate and does nothing to lessen public calls for reprisal ComStar, presuming this is ComStar, will have achieved one of their likely objectives. While in the short term removing the Mandate lines up with short term interests this doesn't change the fact that this will have been a successful manipulation of the Helghast. It'll make the Helghast a threat to the other Successor States encouraging further conflict and it will establish a precedent of Helghan quickly seeking retribution and help bring the Helghast people down to the mentality of the Inner Sphere. A people easy to anger is one that ComStar and even the other IS powers can easily manipulate. Worst case scenario is someone making use of a similar false flag operations to break apart ORDI.
Blaming the Mandate is bound to bring Helghan closer to war and encourage war among the Helghast. On the flip side, saying nothing won't lessen the calls for war and will weaken the current government. This would result in openings for political rivals of the current administration as well as foreign agents to take advantage of.
For these reasons I believe the authors of the leading plans should consider editing their plans such that rather than immediately blaming the Mandate or staying silent, instead have the Helghast government address its people and state that while they have their suspicions that they have no concrete evidence and that the only thing that they know for certain is that the complexity and sophistication of the operation means that it could not have been pulled off by anyone save the major powers. Have them point out that throughout the history of the Inner Sphere there have been numerous false flag attacks that have spurred on hate and misdirected retaliation that have made trust and cooperation difficult if not impossible throughout the Inner Sphere.
Point out how that has led to near three centuries of devastating warfare throughout the Inner Sphere. Wars so utterly horrifying that it has destroyed planets, resulted in countless war crimes, and even resulted in the loss of technologies that the Helghast would take for granted. Show the people the state of some of Helghast's less off neighbors, independent worlds that have devolved in the wake of these wars with barely any technology and often rife with conflict and injustice. By contrast show how much the Helghast and ORDI have achieved by working together. Emphasize how together they rebuilt a nation devastated by civil war, brought safety and comfort to millions, and even revolutionized the state of interstellar communications in the Periphery.
State that if the Mandate is found to be responsible the Helghast government will act and that the Mandate will get what it deserves, but that no one will manipulate the Helghast people into a war through conjured hate and outrage. Remind the people of the last leaders that did that, of Visari and his ilk, and of the death and devastation that followed in their wake. Remind them of the scars that still remain years after they have long since gone. Emphasize that if Helghan goes to war it will be a just war, not them simply lashing out. Not only because to it is wrong to seek vengeance for vengeance's sake, but that it could well be vengeance wrought upon the wrong people and that in turn would make their actions as great an injustice as what was done to them, and that it would be letting off the true culprits while at the same time handing them the victory that they seek.
Declare that the Helghast and their allies are not the Successor States. That unlike them they will not create and perpetuate cycles of violence but rather the Helghast will strive to become something better regardless of whoever may try to stop them.
Edit:
TLDR: Terror attack fits ComStar MO perfectly. Going to war would be playing right into ComStar's hands. Convince the people that is important to determine who is the true culprit, we don't want some foreign power playing us the way Visari did.
One of ComStars methods of dealing with the Successor States has historically been the inflaming tensions of tensions between the IS powers and false flag attacks are not out of the norm for the organization. After all, if the powers are at war they are not developing, and if they are at war they are destroying infrastructure and technology, and in so doing allowing ComStar to become even stronger. If ComStar were indeed the ones behind the recent terrorist attacks then their objectives were likely as thus:
1.) The retrieval of Helghast technologies.
2.) The sabotage of Helghast research and development.
3.) Pitting Helghan into war with the Celestial Mandate.
If Helghan confronts the Celestial Mandate and does nothing to lessen public calls for reprisal ComStar, presuming this is ComStar, will have achieved one of their likely objectives. While in the short term removing the Mandate lines up with short term interests this doesn't change the fact that this will have been a successful manipulation of the Helghast. It'll make the Helghast a threat to the other Successor States encouraging further conflict and it will establish a precedent of Helghan quickly seeking retribution and help bring the Helghast people down to the mentality of the Inner Sphere. A people easy to anger is one that ComStar and even the other IS powers can easily manipulate. Worst case scenario is someone making use of a similar false flag operations to break apart ORDI.
Blaming the Mandate is bound to bring Helghan closer to war and encourage war among the Helghast. On the flip side, saying nothing won't lessen the calls for war and will weaken the current government. This would result in openings for political rivals of the current administration as well as foreign agents to take advantage of.
For these reasons I believe the authors of the leading plans should consider editing their plans such that rather than immediately blaming the Mandate or staying silent, instead have the Helghast government address its people and state that while they have their suspicions that they have no concrete evidence and that the only thing that they know for certain is that the complexity and sophistication of the operation means that it could not have been pulled off by anyone save the major powers. Have them point out that throughout the history of the Inner Sphere there have been numerous false flag attacks that have spurred on hate and misdirected retaliation that have made trust and cooperation difficult if not impossible throughout the Inner Sphere.
Point out how that has led to near three centuries of devastating warfare throughout the Inner Sphere. Wars so utterly horrifying that it has destroyed planets, resulted in countless war crimes, and even resulted in the loss of technologies that the Helghast would take for granted. Show the people the state of some of Helghast's less off neighbors, independent worlds that have devolved in the wake of these wars with barely any technology and often rife with conflict and injustice. By contrast show how much the Helghast and ORDI have achieved by working together. Emphasize how together they rebuilt a nation devastated by civil war, brought safety and comfort to millions, and even revolutionized the state of interstellar communications in the Periphery.
State that if the Mandate is found to be responsible the Helghast government will act and that the Mandate will get what it deserves, but that no one will manipulate the Helghast people into a war through conjured hate and outrage. Remind the people of the last leaders that did that, of Visari and his ilk, and of the death and devastation that followed in their wake. Remind them of the scars that still remain years after they have long since gone. Emphasize that if Helghan goes to war it will be a just war, not them simply lashing out. Not only because to it is wrong to seek vengeance for vengeance's sake, but that it could well be vengeance wrought upon the wrong people and that in turn would make their actions as great an injustice as what was done to them, and that it would be letting off the true culprits while at the same time handing them the victory that they seek.
Declare that the Helghast and their allies are not the Successor States. That unlike them they will not create and perpetuate cycles of violence but rather the Helghast will strive to become something better regardless of whoever may try to stop them.
Edit:
TLDR: Terror attack fits ComStar MO perfectly. Going to war would be playing right into ComStar's hands. Convince the people that is important to determine who is the true culprit, we don't want some foreign power playing us the way Visari did.
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BananosMoon
Banana lover.
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Good point. While we'll need to allocate the lion's share of our efforts into investegating ComStar, I wouldn't rule out every other possible culprits. You know, they might have underestimated us, given that we are a small, even if an advanced one, state.
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Ya know I'm still wondering where the hell Candance is that's still somewhat concerning for me personally for a Variety of reasons.
BananosMoon
Banana lover.
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prometheus110, does the redesigning process include the recalling of ships/MAWLRs for the installment of the upgrades or is it a seperate action?
Spart117MC
Amateur human
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Right that's probably a good idea. @Gmerguy and @Driven by Apathy, if you two have the time would you mind reading over my last post?
As an aside, I think when investigating the attack attention should be paid to the source of the leaks and rumors pinning the blame on the Mandate. If the attack was indeed a false flag operation there would have probably been a follow up operation to get people riled up about the Mandate. The contents of the leaks and rumors should also be examined. Anomalous leaks such as those including information authorities were unaware of at the time or containing information in excess of the clearance level of those involved could be indicators of infiltrators. Also while rumors need not be based in fact those a little too close to the facts, when few were aware of them, should also be taken a look at.
prometheus110
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It's only one and done for things mech scale and below. To replace MAWLRs and above, you need to actually design the new pattern, construct them, and pull old ones out of service.
BananosMoon
Banana lover.
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Is it impossible to modify the already existing ones, or just plain impractical?
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prometheus110
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Depends on the changes. Updates to weapons or armour is generally fine, structural changes are impractical to retrofit.
The problem is that this expects people to act rationally, which they won't. They don't want some sort of pep talk, they want either a visible sign of assurance or justice/revenge. At this point the majoirity of people are already convinced of their posistion, trying to convince them otherwise is working from a position of weakness rather than strength. I am hoping that us working together with our allies to make a vaccine, while have another massive defense conference will be seen enough as a projection of strength and determination to help sooth the peoples fears by showing the government doing something, rather than doing nothing or "making excuses".
Secondly everything about your agrument on Comstar is Metagaming. The Helgen Republic has no reason and no current way to suspect Comstar in any fashion and therefore has no reason to act as if it did.
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Spart117MC
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Pointing out how this fits ComStar's MO and ComStar's potential angle was for the sake of the people on the board not as a justification for the Helgan government. I brought it up because while everyone has mentioned ComStar and has been leery of ComStar most seemed to have missed that getting Helghan engaged in a war would be one of ComStar's goals. Unless you mean my mention of false flag attacks, which for clarification aren't in relation to ComStar, the IS has plenty of examples beyond them and those where what I was talking about. There are a fair amount of reasons that had nothing to do with ComStar for why the Helghast government would treat this as a potential false flag attack.
The Helghast government doesn't need to know about ComStar's dirty laundry to want to play this carefully and as a potential false flag operation. Need I remind you how Helghast forces were false flagged during the Aurigan Civil War, with biological weapons no less? They know that there are at least three other Successor States that would love nothing more than to see the Mandate collapse, one of which is still Capellan in nature even if it is the kind approved of by the Davions and FWL. Never mind the question of where Candace is. We might know she's not psychotic enough to pull something like that off, but the Helghast don't know that. They just know she's MIA and a daughter of Mad Max, likely with no love lost for either the Mandate or what's left of the Confederation.
Then there's the lack of information. The only real bits of evidence were from that one sting of that smuggling ship and yet the agents involved despite knowing about the capture of that vessel and the potential links to the Mandate that would reveal still continued on with this highly visible operation. A highly visible operation that would involve the use of biological agents against a civilian population. All the while having shown extensive competence. The Mandate committing to such an attack which would be reviled by everyone involved whilst literally surrounded by enemies is Kali levels of insane and that girl was friends with the Word of Blake. Remember, very recently the Davions got interdicted by ComStar for allegedly shooting up a relative handful refugees in an HPG station. An Ares Convention violation that results in the deaths of thousands is much worse and the big boys in BT actually care about Ares Convention violations though not for some lofty morals but simple enlightened self interest, since anyone breaks those rules might break them on them.
Jumping the gun and declaring war is a fundamentally bad idea regardless of whether or not this was a Mandate operation. As stated before it establishes a nasty precedent both in giving foreign powers an idea on how to manipulate the Helghast and a certain expectation within the population that they should shoot first and ask questions later. Up until now the Helghast have fought wars in the defense of others, this will be the first time since their arrival in BattleTech that they will acting in the defense of themselves. How they act now is very important to what kind of culture they develop in regards to attacks upon their worlds.
Finally, I know people don't act rationally, hence why I suggesting stacking the deck the way I did. Tying taking immediate aggressive action to the specter of Visari and his despotic rule, tying it to the warmongering that has annihilated the Inner Sphere, suggesting the use of the very real images of nearby planets like Caliban which is at present a warzone or New Oslo which without advanced technologies ended up a frozen wasteland. Then there's the not so subtle, 'lets not descend to the level of state-sponsored-terrorism like those Successor States that are so caught up in hate that they have had three centuries of continuous war' thing while in contrast the ORDI states have actually been productive, colonizing new worlds, and developing new technologies.
Personally I think just working on the vaccine would be considered too little on the part of the Helghast people. A vaccine is expected as par for the course. The conference too, is too general in my mind. While some people may connect it to what happened not everyone will. I think an explicit addressing of the attack even if its just a small speech during the conference is necessary.
The Helghast government doesn't need to know about ComStar's dirty laundry to want to play this carefully and as a potential false flag operation. Need I remind you how Helghast forces were false flagged during the Aurigan Civil War, with biological weapons no less? They know that there are at least three other Successor States that would love nothing more than to see the Mandate collapse, one of which is still Capellan in nature even if it is the kind approved of by the Davions and FWL. Never mind the question of where Candace is. We might know she's not psychotic enough to pull something like that off, but the Helghast don't know that. They just know she's MIA and a daughter of Mad Max, likely with no love lost for either the Mandate or what's left of the Confederation.
Then there's the lack of information. The only real bits of evidence were from that one sting of that smuggling ship and yet the agents involved despite knowing about the capture of that vessel and the potential links to the Mandate that would reveal still continued on with this highly visible operation. A highly visible operation that would involve the use of biological agents against a civilian population. All the while having shown extensive competence. The Mandate committing to such an attack which would be reviled by everyone involved whilst literally surrounded by enemies is Kali levels of insane and that girl was friends with the Word of Blake. Remember, very recently the Davions got interdicted by ComStar for allegedly shooting up a relative handful refugees in an HPG station. An Ares Convention violation that results in the deaths of thousands is much worse and the big boys in BT actually care about Ares Convention violations though not for some lofty morals but simple enlightened self interest, since anyone breaks those rules might break them on them.
Jumping the gun and declaring war is a fundamentally bad idea regardless of whether or not this was a Mandate operation. As stated before it establishes a nasty precedent both in giving foreign powers an idea on how to manipulate the Helghast and a certain expectation within the population that they should shoot first and ask questions later. Up until now the Helghast have fought wars in the defense of others, this will be the first time since their arrival in BattleTech that they will acting in the defense of themselves. How they act now is very important to what kind of culture they develop in regards to attacks upon their worlds.
Finally, I know people don't act rationally, hence why I suggesting stacking the deck the way I did. Tying taking immediate aggressive action to the specter of Visari and his despotic rule, tying it to the warmongering that has annihilated the Inner Sphere, suggesting the use of the very real images of nearby planets like Caliban which is at present a warzone or New Oslo which without advanced technologies ended up a frozen wasteland. Then there's the not so subtle, 'lets not descend to the level of state-sponsored-terrorism like those Successor States that are so caught up in hate that they have had three centuries of continuous war' thing while in contrast the ORDI states have actually been productive, colonizing new worlds, and developing new technologies.
Personally I think just working on the vaccine would be considered too little on the part of the Helghast people. A vaccine is expected as par for the course. The conference too, is too general in my mind. While some people may connect it to what happened not everyone will. I think an explicit addressing of the attack even if its just a small speech during the conference is necessary.
You know what, screw this. I don't care to stick around here, not if your first response is to be dismissive and particularly in that manner. Really appreciate you pissing me off enough to write all that up there without thinking things through. So yeah, thanks for that.
But yeah, obviously all of this is me just metagaming my knowledge about ComStar and totally has no other lines of reasoning. No sir.
Oh, and uh, good reasoning there assuming that people you yourself have claimed are emotional beyond logic will see the vaccine and the ORDI conference as a sign that Helghan is doing something.
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The Conference is literally a response to the attack dude. It is the meeting to prepare for possible war and to better protect both the ORDI nations and Helghan. It is not "doing nothing". We also literally have the QM saying that the people would see the conference as a very good move to show we are doing something about the attack. More importantly, it is still only rumors about who attacked the Mandate is not the only people that are being blamed.
If you can't handle people disagreeing with you then there is no helping that. But considering that the game has been going on for awhile and we have had a lot of things and disscussions already. That is why we have things the way they are.
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prometheus110
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Voting will close by the end of the day so if you have any changes you want to get in, do it now.
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Even if we dont want to go to war, it doesn't change the fact that they are openly building up troops at the border. We should at the very least secure our border.
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We already have. For one our border is far away from them. Two we already have a Division there with extra troops already there specifically for a defense of the Aurigan Reach. And the Aurigans haven't shown off the LosTech hardware they still have which is more than several regiments worth of forces.
The Mandate is also far weaker than the normal CC. They probably have rebuilt some of their forces but they majorly lack the industrial worlds to do it fast. Plus it makes sense for them to move troops to the border because like it was stated in the updates they are not stupid and remember history. A power performing "training exercises" on the border is exactly what cost the CC the war.
SneakyWalrus
Is the Water Free?
I suppose you're right. Inflicting the Capellans on another universe is incredibly cruel, after all.
Aztez Fan
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Well the UCA will be able to handle the Capellans easyly enough. Their navy and no doubt extremely advanced by now ground forces can also manage.
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If war is to come, can we defeat the mandate?