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The Lords of Ruin -- Battletech/Killzone

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After next few turns I have a few suggestions;

After a while, we need to upgrade training of intelligence service. Maybe do wargames or challenges to infiltrate and defend a target with 2 opposing teams? Maybe do them with ORDI states?

Also, we need to maintain our Tech advantage, while our 8 research slots is enough for now, FedSun will surpass us because they have 1 trillion people, and even if currently they have 100 times less Researchers per pop, they can still research or reverse engineer faster.

We need to increase our Education Level even more and increase counter intelligence efforts.
Also let's not trade Current Technologies, and only trade obsolete tech if they are close to researching it or payout is massive.

We either closely integrate ORDI members to us, or increase our population massively in order to stay relevant in organization, as they will eventually surpass us.

In the upcoming Clan Invasion, I suggest to increase our intake of Refugee's massively.

Pirate Nation needs to go soon. Because they border us, it would be better to take those for ourselves. A lot of Carrots to population will probably do it. And Our isolated planet would be connected to us.

As for technology researches, more industrial techs would be very good. Maybe if it becomes available 3D printing factories? Because only considerations would be size of factory compared to manufactured goods, it would make factories modular and simply manufacturing of a lot of stuff. Add anti-gravity, and you can even manufacture zero-gravity materials.
It would also automate a huge portion of factory, so Population Sizes would cease to effect our Manufacturing, so you can exponentially increase your industry as long as enough input materials exists. (Especially because they are modular), Together with Automated Asteroid Miners and cargo ships, You can transfer to an Post-Scarity economy.
Of course, because of quest-breaking capacity of it, I don't think this would happen.
 
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BananosMoon said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but automated cargo haulers are the best deal you're gojng to get, as anything more advanced than that is barred per word of the QM.
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When was this stated? As if I remember correctly if we research swarm intelligence we would be able to make things like mining swarms. And there isn't really a reason why those would be limited to a planet if the robots are designed properly for work in space.

Not to mention if we combine robotic workers, swarm robotics and swarm intelligence we can make discount Geth (from mass effect). They won't be as sophisticated as the Geth but it's better then anything else in battletech.

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udkudk said:
We need to increase our Education Level even more and increase counter intelligence efforts.
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Unfortunately this is currently not possible do to a lack in teachers. It will take a bit more time until enough teachers have been trained for us to do this.
 
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Oh fuck. I only now realize that anything 100 tons or below only has 10 internal structure. And since the 20-point damage-inducing irradiated petrusite cannon conveys 50% (10 points) of its damage to internal structure, Helghan now has a one-shot-kill weapon it can use on vehicles, mechs and aerospace fighters.
 
So I just caught up with this quest and it's great. That said, I think there desperately needs to be a solution to bomb pumped laser warheads. They are really the biggest threat to our fleet elements and they are within the capability of any polity with a nuclear weapon program. They are simply too powerful for us to not have a counter.

And funny enough I think the counter we should develop is bomb pumped laser warheads.

No, not in the shoot first sense.

The thing is that any bomb pumped laser missile is going to be less armored than a warship. An equal weapon can kill the missile before the missile can get into range where it threatens the warship. The biggest threat to nuclear weapons is fratricide. A nuclear weapon has a big enough blast radius to catch it's fellow missiles in the effect.

So the solution to bomb pumped laser warheads is a bomb pumped anti-missile missile. It would be a nuclear explosive lensed to hit a wider arc than would be useful for damaging ships but still focused enough to savage any missiles or fighters caught in it's area. The response to a suspected bomb pumped laser missile launch should be an bomb pumped anti-missile missile counterlaunch to sweep them all out of the sky.

A spread of such bomb pumped area denial missiles could provide near total coverage from an entire missile barrage regardless of how saturated said barrage is.

I would call it the Brutus Anti-Missile Missile, you know, because bomb pumped lasers are being used to stab bomb pumped lasers. The very weapon platform itself betrays the platform.

E tu Brutus?

Yes. Us too. We get in the bomb pumped laser game and ruin it for everyone.

EDIT - I also think we need to deemphasize strike craft. Bomb pumped lasers wipe them out in joblots. I think being in space in anything unable to survive at least one hit from a bomb pumped laser is going to rapidly be considered non-viable. The minute we make these things everyone else already building bomb pumped lasers will ALSO build them, and they are ideal for sweeping ASFs out of the sky.
 
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Fouredged Sword said:
So I just caught up with this quest and it's great. That said, I think there desperately needs to be a solution to bomb pumped laser warheads. They are really the biggest threat to our fleet elements and they are within the capability of any polity with a nuclear weapon program. They are simply too powerful for us to not have a counter.



And funny enough I think the counter we should develop is bomb pumped laser warheads.



No, not in the shoot first sense.



The thing is that any bomb pumped laser missile is going to be less armored than a warship. The biggest threat to nuclear weapons is fratricide. A nuclear weapon has a big enough blast radius to catch it's fellow missiles in the effect.



So the solution to bomb pumped laser warheads is a bomb pumped anti-missile missile. It would be a nuclear explosive lensed to hit a wider arc than would be useful for damaging ships but still focused enough to savage any missiles or fighters caught in it's area. The response to a suspected bomb pumped laser missile launch should be an bomb pumped anti-missile missile counterlaunch to sweep them all out of the sky.



A spread of such bomb pumped area denial missiles could provide near total coverage from an entire missile barrage regardless of how saturated said barrage is.



I would call it the Brutus Anti-Missile Missile, you know, because bomb pumped lasers are being used to stab bomb pumped lasers. The very weapon platform itself betrays the platform.



E tu Brutus?



Yes. Us too. We get in the bomb pumped laser game and ruin it for everyone.



EDIT - I also think we need to deemphasize strike craft. Bomb pumped lasers wipe them out in joblots. I think being in space in anything unable to survive at least one hit from a bomb pumped laser is going to rapidly be conside
red non-viable.
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That's a good idea.

Because we need to focus output less compared to anti-ship version, it would be cheaper to produce. And even if you need to deploy quite a few to properly saturate an area (space is big), it would still be cheaper than replacing Warships.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
E tu Brutus?

Yes. Us too. We get in the bomb pumped laser game and ruin it for everyone.

EDIT - I also think we need to deemphasize strike craft. Bomb pumped lasers wipe them out in joblots. I think being in space in anything unable to survive at least one hit from a bomb pumped laser is going to rapidly be considered non-viable.
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Now this is a nice counter! And I think well thought through. We should give this a try!
 
udkudk said:
That's a good idea.

Because we need to focus output less compared to anti-ship version, it would be cheaper to produce. And even if you need to deploy quite a few to properly saturate an area (space is big), it would still be cheaper than replacing Warships.
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And they are an augment, not a replacement, for regular point defense systems.

The counter to anti-missile bomb pumped lasers is to spread out your missile attack.

But if you spread out your missile attack you make it easier to counter your missiles with traditional point defense.

And you know about how effective your point defense is and so can do the math. If less than X missiles are incoming, rely on point defense. If the enemy threatens to overwhelm point defense delete the incoming missiles in their entirety with bomb pumped area denial.

And while space is big, the missiles are all coming from point A and going to point B. They are traveling along a line. Sure, they can juke and dodge, but their ability to radically escape the general line between the ships is limited. By math the counter missiles will reach their effective range before the missiles get close enough to threaten ships.

"Focused" in this case can be as narrow as a 5 degree spherical arc. That would make the radius of effect for the area of denial nuke magnitudes larger than would normally be. And anti-missile missiles don't need to dive through point defense so they can be large and slow, meaning more warhead per missile volume and large missile volumes. They should have significantly higher power output than an offensive missile.

EDIT - Though taken to the extreme the solution to anti-missile missiles is anti-anti-missile missiles. By that I mean you would lead your missiles with your own spread of anti-missile missiles who's goal is to go first and trigger right before the enemy anti-missile missiles and wipe them from the field proactively.

But then the defender spreads out their anti-missile missiles so the initial wave of anti-anti-missile missiles can't wipe them all out.

It becomes a saturation problem that favors defense over offense. The end result, even assuming parity, is that it is easier to ensure few missiles get through a space than it is to get missiles through a space. You would require large throw weight disparity to make missiles an effective weapon again.
 
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Fissile materials and laser lensing components / advanced electronics and guidance systems etc. are the real limiting factor for BPLs to be a viable offensive asset.

Also take into account if you're deploying AoE BPLs in similar quantities as the enemy is deploying offensive BPLs, the enemy will stop using them offensively and instead using then as anti-orbital defense installation munitions. It is much harder to get in range to destroy these installations unless you've already blinded them, but now that the enemy isn't bothering to arm their ships with them they have far more of them.

Which kind of just tells us more of what we already know, using things defensively rather than offensively limits the amount of unknown or logistical factors involved on your end since you're just waiting for a target to match all the criteria of requirements for your connection rates, and the enemy instead has many complicated requirements and factors to account for before the same criteria is met to get those hits in.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
So I just caught up with this quest and it's great. That said, I think there desperately needs to be a solution to bomb pumped laser warheads. They are really the biggest threat to our fleet elements and they are within the capability of any polity with a nuclear weapon program. They are simply too powerful for us to not have a counter.

And funny enough I think the counter we should develop is bomb pumped laser warheads.

No, not in the shoot first sense.

The thing is that any bomb pumped laser missile is going to be less armored than a warship. An equal weapon can kill the missile before the missile can get into range where it threatens the warship. The biggest threat to nuclear weapons is fratricide. A nuclear weapon has a big enough blast radius to catch it's fellow missiles in the effect.

So the solution to bomb pumped laser warheads is a bomb pumped anti-missile missile. It would be a nuclear explosive lensed to hit a wider arc than would be useful for damaging ships but still focused enough to savage any missiles or fighters caught in it's area. The response to a suspected bomb pumped laser missile launch should be an bomb pumped anti-missile missile counterlaunch to sweep them all out of the sky.

A spread of such bomb pumped area denial missiles could provide near total coverage from an entire missile barrage regardless of how saturated said barrage is.

I would call it the Brutus Anti-Missile Missile, you know, because bomb pumped lasers are being used to stab bomb pumped lasers. The very weapon platform itself betrays the platform.

E tu Brutus?

Yes. Us too. We get in the bomb pumped laser game and ruin it for everyone.

EDIT - I also think we need to deemphasize strike craft. Bomb pumped lasers wipe them out in joblots. I think being in space in anything unable to survive at least one hit from a bomb pumped laser is going to rapidly be considered non-viable. The minute we make these things everyone else already building bomb pumped lasers will ALSO build them, and they are ideal for sweeping ASFs out of the sky.
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We have PD defense drones of both VTOL 5tons and Aerospace 10 tons variety. While it is possible to jam them, it's also relatively quick to get the shielded variant. ER point defense systems have also been approved by prom for research. That said, PD drones would have a better chance of intercepting warheads by lining up and layering themselves along the attended projectile course. And your plan requires a far larger expansion to our nuclear program, a weapon i am absolutely gonna oppose using in-atmosphere ANYWHERE.

There's also the fact that we already have one dropper design that is specifically intended not only to act as local AWACS, but as an in-atmospheric area denial asset, not to mention our superheavies like the MAWLRs which are just bristling with energy, ballistic and missile weaponry.

Edit: Oh yea we also still dont have BPL tech for nukes. Granted it would probably easier to research them since we already have BPL pet (pet lances), we've already got our research slots locked down for the current projects.
 
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abominable said:
We have PD defense drones of both VTOL 5tons and Aerospace 10 tons variety. While it is possible to jam them, it's also relatively quick to get the shielded variant. ER point defense systems have also been approved by prom for research. That said, PD drones would have a better chance of intercepting warheads by lining up and layering themselves along the attended projectile course. And your plan requires a far larger expansion to our nuclear program, a weapon i am absolutely gonna oppose using in-atmosphere ANYWHERE.

There's also the fact that we already have one dropper design that is specifically intended not only to act as local AWACS, but as an in-atmospheric area denial asset, not to mention our superheavies like the MAWLRs which are just bristling with energy, ballistic and missile weaponry.

Edit: Oh yea we also still dont have BPL tech for nukes. Granted it would probably easier to research them since we already have BPL pet (pet lances), we've already got our research slots locked down for the current projects.
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BPLs unarguably do represent the future of missile armament, given they take missiles from dead in the era of massed AMS, to still being a relevant part of the threat environment. Heck, our replacement destroyer design from discord is waiting on BPLs as well as ER-AMS and heavy shields to be finalized in design.

The main thing I find iffy is questioning the role of ASF. They may be vulnerable to BPL beams, but they arguably still give our units a tactical flexibility and adaptability that is invaluable, and importantly, they are a pretty useful element in countering BPL usage--they, along with pocket warships, were instrumental in crippling the armament of the Reynard that raided Detroit, and usefully, they force fighter launched BPLs to be launched earlier and less optimally for anti-shipping strikes if their carrying platforms are able to get into position unmolested. Furthermore, in stern chase situations, ASF complements are going to be one of our only responses to bearings-only launches of BPL laserheads fired from outside of extreme range for our warship main batteries--they're the units with the acceleration needed to chase down an opposing warship on a stern chase, hamstring it, and allow a pursuing warship to catch up.
 
Genolution said:
BPLs unarguably do represent the future of missile armament, given they take missiles from dead in the era of massed AMS, to still being a relevant part of the threat environment. Heck, our replacement destroyer design from discord is waiting on BPLs as well as ER-AMS and heavy shields to be finalized in design.

The main thing I find iffy is questioning the role of ASF. They may be vulnerable to BPL beams, but they arguably still give our units a tactical flexibility and adaptability that is invaluable, and importantly, they are a pretty useful element in countering BPL usage--they, along with pocket warships, were instrumental in crippling the armament of the Reynard that raided Detroit, and usefully, they force fighter launched BPLs to be launched earlier and less optimally for anti-shipping strikes if their carrying platforms are able to get into position unmolested. Furthermore, in stern chase situations, ASF complements are going to be one of our only responses to bearings-only launches of BPL laserheads fired from outside of extreme range for our warship main batteries--they're the units with the acceleration needed to chase down an opposing warship on a stern chase, hamstring it, and allow a pursuing warship to catch up.
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Just dont put that anywhere in-atmosphere and you wont hear any complaints from me. But that's gonna be a postquest thing. And this was mostly a question of a PD BPL using nukes. I can see it working, sure, but between ER AMS of laser and missile variants that are not nukes, plus point defense drones, i imagine itd be only for the most extreme cases.

Edit: and prom says we still need the tech for nuke BPLs. We might be able to research a PD variant of pet lances, and i dunno for more conventional stuff, so a postquest thing.
 
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Genolution said:
The main thing I find iffy is questioning the role of ASF.
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To say nothing of what in-atmosphere aerial superiority grants us by producing and carrying large amounts of them such that we can have vicious space combat occur and still often have more fighters and small craft than the enemy can match, nor the numerous significant advantages that having most of our air support being Aerospace capable grants.
 
Regarding ASF, we've already started drone production. Even if we go with a full drone ASF force (which is the most unlikely since id still prefer a manned force in-atmo at the very least), allowing pilots to remotely control the drones should still be possible. And even jammed from receiving new orders, the drones would still automatically fight according to prom.

Edit:
Our ASF pilots are now a little better compared to the IS, according to Prom. Yaaay. I new Tom Cruise wouldn't let us down.
 
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by prometheus110 on Nov 1, 2023 at 5:05 AM, finished with 143 posts and 33 votes.
    • [X]Plan: Construction and Eyes everywhere modified
      [X] Plan Sunrise Parabellum
      -[X] Actions (20/20)
      --[X] Brotherhood Decapitation Strike (New Oslo)
      --[X] JumpShip Yard Development: Having promised to help the Alphard Republic to construct a jumpship yard, it behoves the Republic to get a start on that ASAP. [Progress: 0/2] [Must Be Started By January 3050] (Alphard Republic)
      --[X] Arms Sales: Underequipped compared to many neighbouring states, the Association may be willing to buy equipment to help build their military. [-1 influence] (Niops Association)
      --[X] Expand League intelligence network: Having placed a number of agents throughout the Trinity League, now would be a good time to capitalise on the effort and expand the Republic's reach. (Trinity League)
      --[X] High-Precision Machinery Trade Deal: Eager to improve the sophistication of their own factories, the Confederation is willing to pay top dollar in exchange [+50,000,000 C-Bills, +5 influence] (Capellan Confederation)
      --[X] Construct a MAWLR-II pack: Task your heavy industry with constructing a pack of three MAWLR-IIs.
      --[X] Establish National Administration and Rebuild Local Administration (Combined): [-100,000,000 C-Bills] [Progress: 0/10] [Locked Until Completed] [+1AP from FAS] [+2AP from URC]
      --[X] Humanitarian Aid (Combined) [-50,000,000 C-Bills/Turn]
      --[X] Construct a Petrusite synthesis plant on: [HELGHAN]
      --[X] Construct a military defence station over [Detroit]
      --[X] Construct Secondary Fleet Anchorage in [DETROIT]
      --[X] Orbital Shipyard (Helghan): Necessary to construct ships massing between 600,000 to 1,000,000 tons due to the limitations of anti-gravity drives, an orbital shipyard over Helghan will allow the Republic to construct much heavier vessels in batches of 3. [Progress 0/2]
      --[X] Colonise Contrilla: Temperate and wet but otherwise quite comfortable for those used to Helghan, colonising Contrilla will add yet another world to the Republic's collection. [Action Locked Until Completed] [Progress: 0/500,000]
      --[X] Fisher Industrial Centre Final Expansion: A final round of investment into the Fisher Industrial Centre will allow the Republic to max out the satellite facility's productivity to 3 battalions worth of mechs per year. [Progress 0/2]
      --[X] Annex Tarragona: A planet of little consequence despite its wealth of heavy metals and fissionable materials, the Republic could absorb Tarragona without much complaint from its neighbours. [-2 influence]
      --[X] Restore the Soletta Array to Full Functionality: Only restored to partial functionality back in 3037, going back and finishing the job should ease life on New Oslo and buy the Republic some goodwill among those in the equatorial regions. [Progress: 1/3]
      --[X] Region-wide Industrial Investment: [Progress: 0/84] [Locked Until Completed] [+1 AP from Aurigan Coalition, +1 AP from Taurian Concordat, +1 AP from Magistracy of Canopus, +1 AP from Capellan Confederation, +4 AP from local systems using War Reparations]
      --[X] Construct Planetary Yards in Portland [Progress: 1/2]
      -[X] Research
      --[X] Heavy Shields [Progress: 11.6/12]
      --[X] Stealth coating [Progress: 3.75/4]
      --[X] Long Range Sensors [Progress: 3.6/6]
      --[X] Irradiated Petrusite Enrichment [Progress: 9.91/12]
      --[X] Capital Missile Countermeasures [3.45/4]
      --[X] Targeted Gene-Plagues [1.1/--]
      --[X] Swarm Robotics [1/--]
      --[X] Organ Cloning [0.7/--]
      --[X] Improved Anti-Gravity Drive [3.6/10] (ORDI Research)
      -[X] Requisitions (4/4)
      --[X] Support Irradiated Petrusite Cannon
      --[X] Pn-100 'Halberd' Anti-Vehicle Mine
      --[X] Pn-83 Anti-Material Beamer
      --[X] M-33 'Skyfire' Anti-VTOL Mine
      [X] Plan Hyperspace Security
      -[X] New Oslo
      --[X] Brotherhood Decapitation Strike
      -[X] Niops Association
      --[X] Infiltrate Niops Association Society
      -[X] Trinity League
      --[X] Expand League intelligence network
      -[X] Outback Stuff
      --[X] Establish National Administration and Rebuild Local Administration (Federation of Autonomous Systems + United Rimward Collective) [2 ap]
      --[X] Basic Infrastructure and Housing Development and Repair (Federation of Autonomous Systems + United Rimward Collective) [2 ap]
      --[X] Humanitarian Aid (Federation of Autonomous Systems + United Rimward Collective) [2 ap]
      -[X] Alphard Republic
      --[X] JumpShip Yard Development
      -[X] Federated Suns
      --[X] Continue NAIS Infiltration [Medium-Hard]
      -[X] Lyran Commonwealth
      --[X] Expand Lyran intelligence network
      -[X] Free Worlds League
      -[X] Rasalhague:
      --[X] Write-in: Send the Republic Diplomatic core to open relations with the Free Rasalhague Republic using a civilian jumpship owned by the Helghast Republic.
      -[X] Planetary Development
      --[X] Orbital Shipyard (Detroit)
      -[X] Military
      --[X] Construct a MAWLR-II pack
      --[X] Construct a military defence station over [Detroit]
      -[X] Research
      --[X] Heavy Shields [Progress: 11.6/12]
      --[X] Stealth coating [Progress: 3.75/4]
      --[X] Long Range Sensors [Progress: 3.6/6]
      --[X] Irradiated Petrusite Enrichment [Progress: 9.91/12]
      --[X] Capital Missile Countermeasures [3.45/4]
      --[X] hyperspace ECCM [1.1/--]
      --[X] shielded smart robotic systems [1/--]
      --[X] Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics [0.7/--]
      -[X] ORDI Research
      --[X] Improved Anti-Gravity Drive [3.6/10]
      -[X] Military Requisition And Design
      --[X] Pn-83 Anti-Material Beamer
      --[X] M-33 'Skyfire' Anti-VTOL Mine
      --[X] Pn-100 'Halberd' Anti-Vehicle Mine
      --[X] Pn-101 'Bramble' Anti-Infantry Mine
    Click to expand...
     
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