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The Long Founding (Warhammer 40k)

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undead frog said:
I'd say the Rubric focuses in on the idea of the Thousand Sons themselves rather than the gene-seed. Or at least those loyal to Magnus given we never see instances of loyalist Thousand Sons getting hit with it.
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I'm struggling to think of a single mentioned loyalist Thousand Sons marine who wouldn't have survived it anyway, though, so… *shrug*
 
Max Uristwell said:
I'm struggling to think of a single mentioned loyalist Thousand Sons marine who wouldn't have survived it anyway, though, so… *shrug*
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On there other hand if they were ever even at risk of the rituals power you'd think we'd see some sign of it even if they managed to resist its impact.

It's why I think it's limited to the Magnus loyalist and descended from em Thousand Sons proper and would also explain how the Blood Ravens… assuming they were loyalist Thousand Sons got off scott free.
 
Max Uristwell said:
"They Totally Word Bearers!!!!!!"
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Dream Logic said:
The Thousand Sons also had a Raven Cult with a prophecy of bloody and fatherless ravens, but that was written after the games were already out.
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Lorgar having title Aurelian, Cyrene being name of a Word Bearer confessor and survival of Monarchia, and most other """"proof"""" of Blood Ravens being Word Bearers was also written after the games, and I really doubt that anyone at Games Workshop seriously was thinking about giving Lorgar title Aurelian because Blood Ravens were supposed to be his descendants instead because of Aurelian having religious connotations.

The only solid point is Kronus and the dark secret discovered there, everything else immediately falls flat on it's face if you just check the date of the sources or acknowledge context, Erebus was specifically talking about gaining insight into Custodes and through them Emperor, by knowledge he mean knowledge of Emperor.

Do you understand?' he asked, without taking his eyes from the funerary work.

'You believe the Custodes offer a closer link to the Emperor.'

'I do. They are born from the same genetic code, though ours was filtered for mass production. They are purer for their rarity, if not their quality.'t was an old assumption, and one with no proof, to claim that the Emperor was a primarch to the Custodian Guard. Argel Tal shook his head.

'You need living Custodes for their blood,' he said, 'in the hopes of chasing what may well be a myth.'

'All weapons must be considered.' Erebus was composed. 'No one but the Emperor has ever had the chance to study the Custodes, and knowledge is power. It must be guarded well. We have tried rituals with the blood of eleven Legions now, and all results met with disaster. What if we master the secrets of the Custodian genus? We could harness that lore to strengthen ourselves, not simply harm our foes. The Custodians in the main fleet, led by Iacus, were killed in battle long ago. Aquillon and his minions present one of the few remaining opportunities. Their blood must be borne from a beating heart for the rituals to have any hope of success.''

For example, there's no reason Eliphas wasn't metaphorical, and just wanted to taunt Blood Ravens and would also use term like brother, if he was fighting Space Wolves, it's not like Space Marines within same Chapter are brothers in any normal, genetic sense either.

Also, Word Bearers aren't Psykers, they Sorcerers, which is different. Psyker is very specific, based on genetics, ability to manipulate the Warp through natural connection all living things have to it, when Sorcery is manipulation of the Immaterium via rituals, pacts with beings native to Immaterium, symbols and formula that anyone can perfom, with "True Sorcerers" being a term that exist within 40k and is expressly used, for example by Inquisitors, to describe people who are Sorcerers but weren't born Psykers.

What the Holy Ordos accept as truth is that through the use of certain mimetic formula and esoteric equations and theorem, expressed sometimes as simple verbal and somaticpatterns (outwardly at least) or, more complexly through rituals of paradox, murder, and discord, the stuff of the warpcan be bled through into reality.

Warpcraft can be made to alter and corrupt physical matter, imbue objects with esoteric power, mutate flesh, summon forth entities from the empyrean, and even create deliberate breaches and rifts in the fabric of the universe.

To undertake such practices or even to search out knowledge of them carries an immediate death sentence in the eyes of the Ordo Malleus, for the seeker damns not only himself but imperils countless others and even reality itself in his arrogance.

The malefic arts must either be independently researched,experimented with, and honed in practice (a process fraught with peril), or be gleaned by the equally treacherous process of tutelage under a master occultist or even a daemonic entity.

As such, the knowledge and abilities of sorcery are often fragmentary and paradoxical, for what one sorcerer may need vials of widow's tears and burning mercury salts for, another may accomplish with a curious gesture and amimetic phrase.

Nor is it clear where traditionally understood psychic powers end and sorcery begins. However, what all sources will agree upon is that the malefic arts are extremely dangerous to the wielder, and to meddle with such an unintelligible and fundamental force to shape reality is to court disaster at every turn.

This danger does not stop the malefic cultist or magi, however; these individuals often see sorcery, daemon lore, and pacts with the dark gods as easy paths to power and glory. It is the sacred task of the Ordo Malleus to hunt them down and destroy them before others suffer for their folly and ambition.

Sorcery, viewed in an objective and abstract way, can be seen as the application of warpcraft, occult formulae, and the exercise of will in order to achieve immediate physical and mental effects much like those of psychic abilities.

But unlike the usual psyker's disciplines, all that is required to perform such baleful miracles is an understanding of the secret and sanity-twisting knowledge of how to do so and the conviction and stomach to put such knowledge into practice.

This malign and erratic sphere of human knowledge is ultimately based on the power of the daemon, either through channelling the powers of warp entities directly (or accidentally) or using the warp to imbue the summoner with psychic power. Some sorcerers claim their powers are a gift of their gods, but many are apt to delude themselves that they practice what is simply a little understood art or science—perilous, yes, but unjustly maligned.

Regardless, sorcery is playing with fire, as the warp is a fickle, uncertain, and utterly dangerous thing with its own inertia and its own diabolical intent.

As a result, "true sorcerers" of great power (individuals who began their quest for esoteric power with no innate psychic ability, but who owe their dark arts purely to forbidden learning and pacts with the horrors beyond), are rare indeed, even among malefic cults and the servants of the Ruinous Powers. However, such obsessed, driven, and malignantly intelligent individuals are among the most dangerous enemies the Holy Ordos can face.

Thousands Sons are common and "false" Sorcerers who on top innate Psychic powers, use rituals and other forms of warpcraft, such as technologies powered by Warp or otherwise using and manipulating Immaterium, while Word Bearers are the rarer "True Sorcerers" and their powers comes only from their own learning and pacts with entities of the Warp. They never were Legion with any significant Psyker potential, on that front, fucking Space Wolves of all Legions had more Psykers.

EDIT: Okay, found the source, it was Crawl Inferior in The Dark Imperium trilogy and indeed, according to this chatbot with copy of Crawl mind, Crawl did succesfully experiment with every Legion geneseed, including The Lost Legions of Second and Eleventh Primarchs.
'Furthermore, he has continued experimental implantation and monitoring of the thus-far unused gene-seed in experimental test subjects. That of the Second, Third, Fourth, Eighth, Eleventh, Twelfth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Twentieth Legions all shows no sign of degradation or incidence of unwelcome tendencies within the recipients. All is well, my lord, Archmagos Belisarius Cawl reassures you. He is so satisfied that I am instructed to repeat his request that those gene-lines be put into full production and be allowed to serve the Imperium as the Emperor intended.'

'No,' said Guilliman firmly. 'I cannot allow it.'

'My lord, the characteristics of your brothers are too valuable to discard. The Emperor's original schema of warriors bred to specific purposes is sound, and should be exploited. Under the current circumstances, we are operating with half our weapons unavailable to us. The Omnissiah's plan is unbalanced. Putting the remaining eleven augmented Primaris gene-lines into production would allow far greater tactical and strategic flexibility of Space Marine forces, particularly when working in concert.'

'I say again, no. Do not progress any further with this research.'

'The warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their primarchs were. Chapters from your gene-line have also fallen in the past millennia, lord regent, and we do not censor them.'

'I said no!' said Guilliman forcefully.

So, I think it's safe to say that Rubicae ritual only influences The Legion or specifically people Loyal to Magnus, and without specific loyalty towards the best boy, you wouldn't suddenly turn into dust, the Rubicae isn't tied with Magnus geneseed itself.
 
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Thinking on All Guardsmen Party, the Dark Peregrines would likely be involved directly in Interplanetary Man Of Mystery, and possibly in The Greater Good episode.
 
Yeah...I lean towards Loyalist Thousand Sons who possibly don't know they are Thousand Sons chapter AND most fandom accepted and agree with that notion they are loyalist Thousand Sons.
 
[X] Plan: Void Privateers
[X] Plan: Void Privateers (Maximum Geneseed edtion)

I really want to save the YT868 for a dedicated Termi focused Space Hulk chapter since I've been imagining one IRL for years since I played the game. I'm absolutely biased in this regard!
 
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[X] Plan: Void Privateers
[X] Plan: Void Privateers (Maximum Geneseed edtion)
 
Oh and before I forget since you probably would have taken em by now if they were an option I'm going to give you all a free charge of extra terminators.

which I most certainly will not regret.
 
So extra terminators with a focus on boarding actions anyone? Could be quite spicy.

On that note while I was leaning whitescars's I do not think that would gel as well with extra terminators so I am nor for Imperial Fists who seem like they would do well there.

[X] Plan: Yes, we have a Phalanx. What about 2nd one?
 
Smartphone said:
So extra terminators with a focus on boarding actions anyone? Could be quite spicy.

On that note while I was leaning whitescars's I do not think that would gel as well with extra terminators so I am nor for Imperial Fists who seem like they would do well there.

[X] Plan: Yes, we have a Phalanx. What about 2nd one?
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If we want to go full meme use the iron hands or death guard. Fists are specced more for hard defense.

Hands or Death guard with boarding training the hulk homeworld, and multiple termi charges would lead to HILARITY. And if it's the hands probably jealousy from the progenitor chapter.
 
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[X] Plan: Void Privateers
[X] Plan: Void Privateers (Maximum Geneseed edtion)

Make them boarding specialists too and thats one hell of a anti piracy and quick reaction force.
 
OK I was going to close the vote but since I doubt I'd be able to finish the next update before the beta goes to sleep/logs off and it seems like people are still somewhat voting I'm going to give it another 3 hours.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Adrian XXIV on Sep 20, 2024 at 4:33 PM, finished with 184 posts and 53 votes.
  • [X] Plan: Yes, we have a Phalanx. What about 2nd one?
    - [X] The Imperial Fists: A famously stalwart legion, the Gene-Seed of the Sons of Dorn lacks the Betchers Gland and Sus-an Membrane entirely, leaving them incapable of spitting acid as an emergency weapon and unable to enter suspended animation when critically injured, but otherwise is fairly stable. They are renowned as the greatest masters of defense in all the Imperium, and have also begun to fill the role of the treasonous Iron Warriors in siege warfare.
    -[X] Legendary Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    -[X] YT868: A massive network of Dark Age of Technology space stations that have fused together similarly to a more coherent Space Hulk, and become capable of self sufficiently supporting a planet-sized population. Despite this, the void of space is still a very hostile place to live, and the population of this vast station is often under attack due to their home's very nature. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    [X] Plan: Void Privateers (Maximum Geneseed edtion)
    -[X] The White Scars: The Sons of Jaghatai Khan bear no overt physical defects, yet the White Scars Gene-Seed has been known to make those implanted with it more savage and hungry for war. In honour of their Primarch's history as a master of cavalry, they have mastered the use of both Combat Bikes and the rarer Jetbike units, and specialise in high speed, hit and run battles.
    --[X] Potent Gene Seed
    --[X] Potent Gene Seed x2
    --[X] Legendary Gene Seed
    - [X] Rhodes 77: A planet in the Ultramar region, Rhodes is an important hub world due to it's location along several of the most stable warp routes known to Ultramar. This makes the regions near the world a den of piracy both of the human and xenos variety. (Ultramar Region).
    --[X] Adaptive Gene Seed
    --[X] Adaptive Gene Seed x2
    [X] Plan: Void Privateers
    [X] Plan: Yes, we have a Phalanx. What about 2nd one? (Maximum Geneseed edtion)
    - [X] The Imperial Fists: A famously stalwart legion, the Gene-Seed of the Sons of Dorn lacks the Betchers Gland and Sus-an Membrane entirely, leaving them incapable of spitting acid as an emergency weapon and unable to enter suspended animation when critically injured, but otherwise is fairly stable. They are renowned as the greatest masters of defense in all the Imperium, and have also begun to fill the role of the treasonous Iron Warriors in siege warfare.
    -[X] Legendary Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Potent Gene Seed x2
    -[X] YT868: A massive network of Dark Age of Technology space stations that have fused together similarly to a more coherent Space Hulk, and become capable of self sufficiently supporting a planet-sized population. Despite this, the void of space is still a very hostile place to live, and the population of this vast station is often under attack due to their home's very nature. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Adaptive Gene Seed x2
    [X] Plan: Guardians of the Old.
    -[X] The Iron Hands: The Gene-Seed of the Sons of Ferrus Manus seems to hold a genuine disdain of weakness within it, and since the death of their Primarch this hatred seems to have further narrowed into contempt for the weakness of the flesh specifically. Though you fully understand the irony of a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus thinking this you find the belief irrational at best, for is the organic matter in space marines not already more durable and more capable than most cybernetics known to the Imperium? In fact, so pristine is the Omnissiah's enhancements that these cybernetics can actually be a degradation from the original…. But of course, you are a mere Genetor, who degrades himself by working with the 'weak' flesh rather than the blessed machine spirits. Even if you are older and more learned about the ways of the machine than several of your closest peers put together, what could you possibly know about the topic of flesh and machinery in relation to one another?
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    -[X] YT868: A massive network of Dark Age of Technology space stations that have fused together similarly to a more coherent Space Hulk, and become capable of self sufficiently supporting a planet-sized population. Despite this, the void of space is still a very hostile place to live, and the population of this vast station is often under attack due to their home's very nature. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    [X] Plan: Yes, we have a Rock. What about 2nd one? (Maximum Geneseed edtion)
    -[X] The Dark Angels: The Dark Angels, sons of Lion El Johnson, much like the Ultramarines have a very stable and mutation free Gene-Seed. They have access to a great deal of highly advanced technology gifted to them by the Emperor, and have formed several of their Companies into heirs of their previous elite forces such as the Deathwing. However, the Dark Angels have also been acting very erratic of late, and are stubbornly insistent about forming 'relations' with their founding chapters regarding matters they refuse to speak of, even to other Astartes. A great number of officials within the Imperium are growing very concerned about this, but with the death of the First Legion's Primarch, it seems unlikely anyone could force them to reveal the reason for their behaviour.
    -[X] Legendary Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Potent Gene Seed x2
    -[X] YT868: A massive network of Dark Age of Technology space stations that have fused together similarly to a more coherent Space Hulk, and become capable of self sufficiently supporting a planet-sized population. Despite this, the void of space is still a very hostile place to live, and the population of this vast station is often under attack due to their home's very nature. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Adaptive Gene Seed x2
    [X] Plan: Redeemed in Iron-DAOT Edition
    -[X] The Iron Warriors: The biggest flaw within the Gene-Seed of the traitor Perturabo is that it induces intense paranoia, though nowhere near the bitterness and misanthropy their father posessed even when he was yet loyal. That said, the fact that it also gifts enhanced intelligence, problem-solving abilities, and is compatible with a wider range of aspirants than the majority of other legions can more than make up for that initial flaw if leveraged in the right way. Prior to their betrayal, the Iron Warriors were the greatest masters of Siege Warfare in the entirety of the Imperium, and though this won them little glory, it was a specialisation as worthy as any other.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    -[X] YT868: A massive network of Dark Age of Technology space stations that have fused together similarly to a more coherent Space Hulk, and become capable of self sufficiently supporting a planet-sized population. Despite this, the void of space is still a very hostile place to live, and the population of this vast station is often under attack due to their home's very nature. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    [X] Plan: Defenders of Ultramar (Maximum Geneseed edtion)
    - [X] The Imperial Fists: A famously stalwart legion, the Gene-Seed of the Sons of Dorn lacks the Betchers Gland and Sus-an Membrane entirely, leaving them incapable of spitting acid as an emergency weapon and unable to enter suspended animation when critically injured, but otherwise is fairly stable. They are renowned as the greatest masters of defense in all the Imperium, and have also begun to fill the role of the treasonous Iron Warriors in siege warfare.
    --[X] Potent Gene Seed
    --[X] Potent Gene Seed x2
    --[X] Legendary Gene Seed
    - [X] Rhodes 77: A planet in the Ultramar region, Rhodes is an important hub world due to it's location along several of the most stable warp routes known to Ultramar. This makes the regions near the world a den of piracy both of the human and xenos variety. (Ultramar Region).
    --[X] Adaptive Gene Seed
    --[X] Adaptive Gene Seed x2
    [x] Plan: Let us make a Labyrinth
    --[X] The Imperial Fists: A famously stalwart legion, the Gene-Seed of the Sons of Dorn lacks the Betchers Gland and Sus-an Membrane entirely, leaving them incapable of spitting acid as an emergency weapon and unable to enter suspended animation when critically injured, but otherwise is fairly stable. They are renowned as the greatest masters of defense in all the Imperium, and have also begun to fill the role of the treasonous Iron Warriors in siege warfare.
    -[X] Legendary Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    -[X] Creetaz: A planet near Ultramar with a large number of the Abhumans known as Beastmen, whom have lived in shocking harmony with the human population. Normally Beastmen either fall to Chaos or end up in a mutually hostile relationship with baseline humans, but this world seems to have avoided both fates. Additionally, a stable sub-species of Beastman known as Minotaurs have been confirmed as native to the planet, and according to your records, are as large and powerful as Ogryns. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    [X] Plan: Defenders of Ultramar
    - [X] The Imperial Fists: A famously stalwart legion, the Gene-Seed of the Sons of Dorn lacks the Betchers Gland and Sus-an Membrane entirely, leaving them incapable of spitting acid as an emergency weapon and unable to enter suspended animation when critically injured, but otherwise is fairly stable. They are renowned as the greatest masters of defense in all the Imperium, and have also begun to fill the role of the treasonous Iron Warriors in siege warfare.
    - [X] Rhodes 77: A planet in the Ultramar region, Rhodes is an important hub world due to it's location along several of the most stable warp routes known to Ultramar. This makes the regions near the world a den of piracy both of the human and xenos variety. (Ultramar Region).
    [X] Plan: Loyal Till The End.
    - [X] The Imperial Fists: A famously stalwart legion, the Gene-Seed of the Sons of Dorn lacks the Betchers Gland and Sus-an Membrane entirely, leaving them incapable of spitting acid as an emergency weapon and unable to enter suspended animation when critically injured, but otherwise is fairly stable. They are renowned as the greatest masters of defense in all the Imperium, and have also begun to fill the role of the treasonous Iron Warriors in siege warfare.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    - [X] Rhodes 77: A planet in the Ultramar region, Rhodes is an important hub world due to it's location along several of the most stable warp routes known to Ultramar. This makes the regions near the world a den of piracy both of the human and xenos variety. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
    [X] Plan: Redeemed in Iron.
    -[X] The Iron Warriors: The biggest flaw within the Gene-Seed of the traitor Perturabo is that it induces intense paranoia, though nowhere near the bitterness and misanthropy their father posessed even when he was yet loyal. That said, the fact that it also gifts enhanced intelligence, problem-solving abilities, and is compatible with a wider range of aspirants than the majority of other legions can more than make up for that initial flaw if leveraged in the right way. Prior to their betrayal, the Iron Warriors were the greatest masters of Siege Warfare in the entirety of the Imperium, and though this won them little glory, it was a specialisation as worthy as any other.
    -[X] Potent Gene-Seed.
    - [X] Rhodes 77: A planet in the Ultramar region, Rhodes is an important hub world due to it's location along several of the most stable warp routes known to Ultramar. This makes the regions near the world a den of piracy both of the human and xenos variety. (Ultramar Region).
    -[X] Adaptive Gene-Seed.
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You only have 5 minutes left. . .
 
This is going to be close no matter what wins, though I'd prefer the single Gene seed void instead of the double if it wins
 
I feel giving the space-junk planet to Imperial Fists is a waste. Like pointed out by others before, it's just doing what the plans says on the tin, doing another Phalanx, when we could have done something new, like Chapter of Iron Hands who is friends with radical Mechanicus and Inquisition because they live among the literal remains of The past ages of Humanity before The Imperium.

But still, I'm just happy that plans with "maximum" geneseed are losing. It's such a waste to spent all remaining charges on a single Chapter just to waste points on rebuying everything next turn for another Chapter ad infinitium.
 
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