- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We were explicitly reminded that the Vale lords are appropriators of land and that their smallfolk are little more than property markers, no? Best not to lionize them too much.
The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] Send all of them to the Wall
Of course, the reality is far messier and verges into genocidal desires or so on, but, like, as a vision of what it means to be a knight it has its attractive qualities... as long as we outside do not forget that it's just that.
Of course, the reality is far messier and verges into genocidal desires or so on, but, like, as a vision of what it means to be a knight it has its attractive qualities... as long as we outside do not forget that it's just that.
- Location
- La Serena, Chile
Remember we are talking about making Rhaenyra choosing. A girl raised by a rather young dynasty of incest-obssesed Dragon riders whose Valyrian roots included LOTS of slavery and genocide.
Don't expect, or demand, Rhaenyra to have a mindset that is critical of her stuck-on-a-medieval-stasis world outside of the obvious mysogyny that is a Personal Issue for her
Eternal_0bserver
(Unverified Bookworm)
- Location
- Earth, Northern Europe
[X] The Vale Knights'
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
- Location
- Germany
This is pretty much fighting against windmills. The Mountain Clans lack sympathetic viewpoint characters, so the Vale knights nearly always get a pass from the fandom for being enforcers of a genocidal settler policy that has been ongoing just as long as the Freeholds antics.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It does not help that Lady Jeyne's father and brothers were slain by Mountain Clans and Rhaenyra's mother was Arryn. Our character is never going to be sympathetic towards the mountain clans and she's our POV.
- Location
- Germany
Eh. Not every story has to touch on every single rough edge of the world.
We can just acknowledge that the Vale Knight's are looking quite different when seen from a free folk villagers perspective and carry on with the lesbian handholding.
Shapeless Phobos
Filthy Casual
[X] The Vale Knights'
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
- Location
- United States
Also, the Andal invasions happen upwards of 1-2 thousand years ago, possibly up to 6. It's not like it was a recent invasion, and in most cases the FM and Andals assimilated with each other to the point of being indistinguishable (for instance, the Royces are the descendants of the FM Bronze King). Trying to relitigate a millenia old land dispute seems pointless. IRL that'd be like relitigating the angles and saxons migration to the British isles in the most recent case.
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- Pronouns
- Male
[X] The Vale Knights'
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
[X] Allow those who repent to be sent to the Wall, execute the rest.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I mean to be clear the Mountain Clans are... still around? Like, they still exist.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
And, more to the point, are still resisting central authority. Hence the fairly frequent combat with the Vale's knights.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
It's a very rough knightly form of consent of the governed, isn't it? We can build from that.
Voting closed
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Voting is closed. Not a close one but not a runaway (entirely) like the last few have been.
Especially if we mix in a bit of legalism into the mix by studying law more. Rhaenyra the Lawgiver does sound quite nice, doesn't it?
I do wonder if Arnold would had the courage to insult Jenny and Rhaenyra if Viserys joined the tour
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Oaths are central to that as well. I guess the Vale Knights' response is a bit more tailor suited for chivalry etc, but as a Queen regnant, oaths will be a very direct and practical concern to us - and yet the notion of faithfulness still touches on Rhaenyra's idealism and chivalry.
That pre-assumes a level of choice. True in our case, but that's a very special case. As it is, people become knights mostly because it is expected of them. After all, it's not just a job or status, it is part of how you grow up and are raised, as pages and squires and so on. And that a way of being raised that will just be expected of most of nobility, certainly for all sons of higher nobility and at least the heirs among lower nobility.
Also, speaking of other kingdoms, I am surprised Tarly didn't speak up: Dornish raids into the Marches are not that infrequent, so at least Marcher knights would have that in common with Vale Knights (plus of course the Marcher raids into Dorne, for that matter). So it isn't just the Vale. And even everywhere else, you'll get at least a regional conflict every generation or so, though at least not all-out wars; the Targaryens have been pretty good in limiting those to every century or so.
I mean, that history is also part of it. The Mountain Clans have that name for a reason. That genocidal settler policy in the Vale proper by and large happened 4,000 or 6,000 years ago, depending on where you want to set the Andal Invasion. Of course, I have no doubt that Clanners will still be slaughtered by Vale Knights wherever they can get a hold of them, but it just isn't the current crop of Knights which did the genocidal replacement population thing and it hasn't been for not only centuries, but indeed literal millennia. The current Knights are 'merely' upholding a status quo.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
I don't like the oath answer as much because it's too focused on what he did wrong rather than building up what we want to do right. And it builds up a very austere and inflexible vision of society. Honor is more focused on being virtuous ourselves and being deserving of power through that virtue, and I like that.
- Location
- United States
So do the Scottish and welsh, although obviously they aren't on nearly as bad terms with the English as the mountain clans are.
It's also not like the valemen aren't also FM descendants, since just going by the Royces plenty converted and assimilated. And given the Mountain Clans' habit of carrying off women, they also probably have substantial Andal admixture.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Are the Welsh the example you really want to use here? Since, like, there was a whole conquest and oppression thing that went on for a while. It's not relevant now, but then Westeros is not exactly some hypothetical "modern Westeros" either.
Like, there was a period of time when the Welsh were kinda not on great terms with the English. Then they got conquered and eventually a bunch of other stuff happened which is beyond the scope of this vaguely medieval-esque setting, as it were.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Cultural genocide is genocide as well.
But the main thing is that this happened 4,000-6,000 years in the past. It wasn't the great-grandfathers of the current Knights' great-grandfathers who did the genocide and replacement population thing. And lest we forget, the First Men also conquered the territory by force some thousands years before that, genociding the Children of the Forest. So if we want to speak about older rights, t he Children would have the oldest.