- Location
- Sunset City zone
Welp. I think time travel happened.
Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)
Farseer Sen'Zabl
Accolyte of 'Common Sense'
- Location
- Dome of Crystal Seers, Ulthwe
What would you like me to title that as? My first thought is "By A Hair's Breadth", but if you have something else, I'll gladly use that instead.
Title it as you please, your suggestion is about as good as anything I could come up with.
Merry (late) Christmas
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
As much as time looping will be a pain in the ass and prevent meaningful progress in things unrelated to subsumption, the mix of absorption and infinite repeates could go in very interesting directions. For example, right now we have a slightly off brand Sayaka, but barring any extra weirdness, there's another Sayaka who hasn't even contracted yet. Now if that Sayaka were to witch, then Ash and Sayaka attack and subsumed her, what happens to Sayaka?
My current guess would be nothing. Oktavia and Sayaka a are very different type of being, despite one being the origin of the other. Some effect is possible, but likely minor if anything.
But what if this other Sayaka is subsumed while she's still a magical girl? Is that girl different enough to have her own page in Novella, or would she be added to Sayaka's page? Would her magic, memories, and mind be subsumed into Sayaka? I think yes. It'd be horrible, and I hope they'd never do this on purpose, but if Sayaka really needed a magic boost, Ash and her could start hunting other Sayaka's to add to her. Hell, they could try engineering situations to make these other Sayaka's come up with specific wishes, as a way of expanding her powers and Ashtaroth's grief storage. Hell, that might be a way to increase the number of Sayaka's powers that Ashtaroth can use.
And this is just basic stuff. If they learn of Kazumi and what she is, subsum the Saints, then convince them to continue their experiments? Wait for a loop to start, make a Sayaka witch out, and turn bits of that Oktavia into pseudo Sayaka clone. What happens if she were to be subsumed? Would she be added to Sayaka, make part of a page for Oktavia, or her own page?
PMMM is so weird, and there's so many ways this combination of powers and circumstances can be used. Horrible, horrible ways that I can't stop coming up with.
My current guess would be nothing. Oktavia and Sayaka a are very different type of being, despite one being the origin of the other. Some effect is possible, but likely minor if anything.
But what if this other Sayaka is subsumed while she's still a magical girl? Is that girl different enough to have her own page in Novella, or would she be added to Sayaka's page? Would her magic, memories, and mind be subsumed into Sayaka? I think yes. It'd be horrible, and I hope they'd never do this on purpose, but if Sayaka really needed a magic boost, Ash and her could start hunting other Sayaka's to add to her. Hell, they could try engineering situations to make these other Sayaka's come up with specific wishes, as a way of expanding her powers and Ashtaroth's grief storage. Hell, that might be a way to increase the number of Sayaka's powers that Ashtaroth can use.
And this is just basic stuff. If they learn of Kazumi and what she is, subsum the Saints, then convince them to continue their experiments? Wait for a loop to start, make a Sayaka witch out, and turn bits of that Oktavia into pseudo Sayaka clone. What happens if she were to be subsumed? Would she be added to Sayaka, make part of a page for Oktavia, or her own page?
PMMM is so weird, and there's so many ways this combination of powers and circumstances can be used. Horrible, horrible ways that I can't stop coming up with.
Last edited:
I think the new Sayaka would get a new page because she would make a different Wish than Ashy's Sayaka, and be thus a different existence.
You might be able to fuse Sayakas if they are similar enough but pre-time travel Sayaka's Wish only came about because of a mix of Shemesh, Ashys and Kyubey's actions.
Of course, this could work out with Tira; she already is a magical girl at the start of the loop.
- Location
- United States
Personally, I think that there's only one Sayaka - ours. I haven't seen any evidence of soul duplication in the canon. In this case I assume that Sayaka's soul would be obliterated with the arrival of Ashtaroth and go brain dead, either that or Sayaka would be un-personed by the universe. I mostly just don't want to deal with paradox clones, thank you.
Last edited:
I think there will be another Sayaka, for two reasons.
1. Our Sayaka got dragged along.
The moment Homura activated her Wish magic, the only person that touched her was Ashy. That Sayaka could be summoned after the time travel means she traveled along with Ashy, and thus was considered part of Ashy.
2. Sayaka could be summoned.
Normally, Homura's time travel has people arrive wherever they were at an earlier point in time. We see that with Homura, both in Canon and her Interlude. The same goes for Ashy.
That Sayaka didn't appear back in
Of course, this doesn't mean it's a case of soul duplication. It just means a future version of Sayaka got subsumed to the extent that her soul doesn't exist as a distinct being anymore without realizing, or accepting, that.
Art: Tira Narumi Commission
Flairina
Least Omnipotent Goddess
- Location
- The next infinity over
If anyone was hoping for a better visual of Tira, then I have good news --- that commission of her is finally finished! Check it out:
"Too 'poofy'? Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of bloomers..."
Sadly, the artist (Lillielzangeki89 on Deviantart) couldn't work Tira's penbrush in, but I think this is a pretty great rendition of her all the same. I'll probably be commissioning another image as well --- a full-body one this time, and in a more animesque style --- but for now, this will be being used as Tira's profile art. Hope you all like it as much as I do.
"Too 'poofy'? Perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of bloomers..."
And now I'm just realizing how easily could Ashy turn her witch ability into a reedition of Homura's shield. Did you do that on purpose, or Ashy took more from Homura more than we even realized, to the point it's sterting to bleed into the omakes?
Farseer Sen'Zabl
Accolyte of 'Common Sense'
- Location
- Dome of Crystal Seers, Ulthwe
As much as I would love to claim that was intentional, t'was merely a whimsical joke based on Ashy's signature ability with a bit of 'what would a quest player do' mixed in. Though in hind-sight your suggestion makes perfect sense, coincidence? Or is my subconscious a really clever and subtle writer?
Sayaka and Ashy both doing the hair-flick thing was meant as an example both of Ashy assimilating Homura's traits, and then passing them on to Sayaka, so the idea isn't without merit.
Whilst I'm here, something about how Tira's hair falls looks rather like Ashy's fresh new hairstyle, so either Tira has yeilded her fashion unto us, we stole Homura's perfect hair for our own, or when we have a Magi stored in Novella we take on some of their asthetics. Thoughts?
Last edited:
Voracity used to have the perfect tag for this 'quest. I was planning to link it... but it seems to be gone now. There is some evidence though: Octopus shenanigans in Worm (likely inactive).
Given the state in which Homura wakes, what happens to bodies away from soul gems, the accumulation of karma across loops, and that familiars seems to be mentally and socially distinct, I would assume that souls, while malleable, are unique. I would expect Sayaka to just drop dead when her soul has to migrate into her soul witch. The question I have is does this happen when Homura wakes? Or when Ashtaroth does? If Ashtaroth, then what happens to her memories from between those times?
There is, of course, another possibility. I do not see any definitive evidence as to when Homura woke up. She was in the hospital, but... no calendar? If Homura's loops have now been put forward to a point after Madoka contracted... well, Ashtaroth could bring in a cheap consultant to assess the total volume of her barrier(s), as measured in incendiary devices. She has, afterall, been curious about how big she has gotten. Or maybe she would just suffer from a week-long bout of Spontaneous Involuntary Combustion Syndrome.
Given the state in which Homura wakes, what happens to bodies away from soul gems, the accumulation of karma across loops, and that familiars seems to be mentally and socially distinct, I would assume that souls, while malleable, are unique. I would expect Sayaka to just drop dead when her soul has to migrate into her soul witch. The question I have is does this happen when Homura wakes? Or when Ashtaroth does? If Ashtaroth, then what happens to her memories from between those times?
There is, of course, another possibility. I do not see any definitive evidence as to when Homura woke up. She was in the hospital, but... no calendar? If Homura's loops have now been put forward to a point after Madoka contracted... well, Ashtaroth could bring in a cheap consultant to assess the total volume of her barrier(s), as measured in incendiary devices. She has, afterall, been curious about how big she has gotten. Or maybe she would just suffer from a week-long bout of Spontaneous Involuntary Combustion Syndrome.
- Pronouns
- He
Here is some nightmare fuel it has been reveled that when a witch is destroyed you destroy there soul but if you destroy a magical girl soul gem there soul can become a ghost
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Um, no? If we assume that the latest Magia Record event story is not just a dream (and I do), Mel just became a ghost after she was killed. (Presumably because Kyubey harvested her grief seed and decided she outlived her usefulness or something? It's not entirely clear, I admit.)
On a related note, I find it interesting that Mel describes being a witch like it's just a dim dream. So it seems some witches may be more aware or in control than others, but the id generally reigns supreme and they seldom pinch themselves awake. And while those like Mel are apparently a lost cause, they also seem kinda numb to all the suffering.
Flairina
Least Omnipotent Goddess
- Location
- The next infinity over
Hmm. Having others make specific wishes, in order to expand one's own powers, and in the process taking control of their bodies to make use of them for one's own ends. This sounds oddly familiar.
(...you can't fool me, Corbeau. I know it's you. )
I can't answer this now, but I will say that Asunaro is gonna be real interesting if Ashtaroth ever winds up with a reason to go there.
Contradictory question. It's not really "hearing text" so much as having words shoved into one's brain, so there's not really a sound to them. If this was being presented in an anime format or some such, I imagine it would still be expressed through words/subtitles regardless of the language used (though they'd probably be accompanied by some manner of whispery, maybe echoey sound effect that can still express tone without sounding like actual words).
Darn, I can't remember what most of its tags were either, it's been inactive for so long. Shame, I liked that quest.
I imagine Homura may develop a sudden and intense interest in the novel Fahrenheit 451, and the many real world applications of the lessons it teaches, yes.
I assume you're talking about the "Voices From Beyond" event in Magia record, which... eh, take that with a grain of salt. I mean, I'm not going to explicitly say it's not true, but this is the same event that claims "ghost licenses" are a thing, and most of it was implied to be a dream to begin with. It's very clearly supposed to be a mostly-goofy story which exists only because they needed to somehow involve/utilize two characters that were already dead prior to the game's events, and as such its theoretical canonity is called pretty heavily in question.
Hastur is referring to the very end of the event story, where it's "revealed" that while what was shown actually happened (supposedly), Kanae was the only one there, because Mel never became a ghost due to becoming a witch. Kanae did her best to push along Mel's feelings too, but the other girl was never truly present.
...again though, ghost licenses. I'm willing to potentially buy magical girl ghosts, but I'm less willing to buy something that explicitly goofy existing in the PMMM universe for no given reason.
Apologies for the delay by the way; I've been seriously distracted with trying (emphasis on trying) to update other fics as of late. The next chapter is coming along, but it may take a bit.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
I have no clue who that is. That mask makes her look like a Yugioh villain.Hmm. Having others make specific wishes, in order to expand one's own powers, and in the process taking control of their bodies to make use of them for one's own ends. This sounds oddly familiar.
(...you can't fool me, Corbeau. I know it's you. )
Well, time to start coming up with reasons for her to go there! I imagine it'll involve a lot of suffering, but as this is PMMM suffering was a given, might as well have it be interesting suffering.
I don't have anything to add except for a topical link, so I'll just mention that Subsumption is one of the few stories for which my irrational fondness overwhelms my ability to articulate its qualities.
Well if you are in the market...(Author hasn't been around for a while?)
Last edited:
Karyis
procrastinating as we speak
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
shes from Tart Magica, the spin-off about Joan of Arc, one of the antagonists in fact.
- Pronouns
- He
I think the ghost license is a metaphor for what bound them to the living world so it getting suspended means they have no more "chains "to hold them down from passing on if there is a after life if not while then there stuck in phantom walnut which I think is limboHmm. Having others make specific wishes, in order to expand one's own powers, and in the process taking control of their bodies to make use of them for one's own ends. This sounds oddly familiar.
(...you can't fool me, Corbeau. I know it's you. )
I can't answer this now, but I will say that Asunaro is gonna be real interesting if Ashtaroth ever winds up with a reason to go there.
Contradictory question. It's not really "hearing text" so much as having words shoved into one's brain, so there's not really a sound to them. If this was being presented in an anime format or some such, I imagine it would still be expressed through words/subtitles regardless of the language used (though they'd probably be accompanied by some manner of whispery, maybe echoey sound effect that can still express tone without sounding like actual words).
Darn, I can't remember what most of its tags were either, it's been inactive for so long. Shame, I liked that quest.
I imagine Homura may develop a sudden and intense interest in the novel Fahrenheit 451, and the many real world applications of the lessons it teaches, yes.
I assume you're talking about the "Voices From Beyond" event in Magia record, which... eh, take that with a grain of salt. I mean, I'm not going to explicitly say it's not true, but this is the same event that claims "ghost licenses" are a thing, and most of it was implied to be a dream to begin with. It's very clearly supposed to be a mostly-goofy story which exists only because they needed to somehow involve/utilize two characters that were already dead prior to the game's events, and as such its theoretical canonity is called pretty heavily in question.
Hastur is referring to the very end of the event story, where it's "revealed" that while what was shown actually happened (supposedly), Kanae was the only one there, because Mel never became a ghost due to becoming a witch. Kanae did her best to push along Mel's feelings too, but the other girl was never truly present.
...again though, ghost licenses. I'm willing to potentially buy magical girl ghosts, but I'm less willing to buy something that explicitly goofy existing in the PMMM universe for no given reason.
Apologies for the delay by the way; I've been seriously distracted with trying (emphasis on trying) to update other fics as of late. The next chapter is coming along, but it may take a bit.
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
There are so many ways this can and will FUBAR everything. Here's to hoping Ashy discovers the Freezer!
Pure language, not formatted into sound or text?
So for instance, this spectral reverb would synchronize with Ashy's voice to make her "sound" louder when she's "shouting"?
It is a dream, and projecting thoughts and feelings to the living is supposed to be fairly difficult, so some distortion kinda makes sense. The ghost license could be something similar enough in concept that the still-living Yachiyo cannot comprehend rather than a literal license...
...or that, yeah. Certain elements of the dream can be interpreted creatively, is what I'm saying.
Well, we know souls exist so my thought is:
-The soul gem is just the housing. So is the grief seed.
-When a soul gem is destroyed, the soul is released.
-When a soul gem becomes a grief seed, the soul is still in the grief seed, bathed in grief beyond reasoning. The resultant witch is essentially the sleepwalking soul buried in a nightmare.
-When a Witch is defeated, much of the grief is destroyed, leaving them sleeping in truth.
-Grief attracts more grief, so the grief seed can suck away the grief from soul gems.
-Once you hit saturation, the grief seed rehatches
-If a grief seed is somehow destroyed, the soul is also released.
Ashy is a weirdo and the usual rules don't apply because presumably of her wish as an MG
-The soul gem is just the housing. So is the grief seed.
-When a soul gem is destroyed, the soul is released.
-When a soul gem becomes a grief seed, the soul is still in the grief seed, bathed in grief beyond reasoning. The resultant witch is essentially the sleepwalking soul buried in a nightmare.
-When a Witch is defeated, much of the grief is destroyed, leaving them sleeping in truth.
-Grief attracts more grief, so the grief seed can suck away the grief from soul gems.
-Once you hit saturation, the grief seed rehatches
-If a grief seed is somehow destroyed, the soul is also released.
Ashy is a weirdo and the usual rules don't apply because presumably of her wish as an MG
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Or because there is no egocentrism without ego.
Trying to subsume more Sayakas is probably more trouble than it's worth.
We would have to convince Sayaka to do it, hide her long enough to make sure Kyubey makes a Contract with the local timeline Sayaka and then subsume the new Sayaka. This assumes she makes a Wish in the first place and it isn't something that makes subsuming her infeasible. Also Homura.
No, if we want to abuse time loops and subsumption we have to go with our other magical Girl, Tira. She was already a magical girl before we meet her, so we don't have to worry about her not making a Contract. She also lives outside of Mitakihara and is, at the start of the time loop, in a bad enough situation that being subsumed is probably her best chance of survival, with how she runs out of grief seeds and ends up as a Witch in most timelines.
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Plus, it's possible that Ashy lost the urge to subsume Saar, Sayaka, and Tira specifically. Those parts of the world are already complete, right?
Homura has never known Tira, so cluing Tira in to the fact that witches are people is so far the only known way Tira might not witch before Homura encounters her. I don't know how necessary subsumption would have been if Ashy and Charlotte didn't join forces, but a slightly more knowledgeable Tira would contact Mami and last at least a little longer as a result.
Last edited:
[X] Extract Tira in a completely dark place and leave her there without revealing ourselves, then send in Sayaka with a light and a camera and have her tell Tira to check on her grief. Record Tira's face when she realises she has no soul gem.
[sarcasm]This will be unfailingly hilarious and cannot possibly cause problems.[/sarchasm]
I still doubt that there are more Sayakas to eat. So far we only have Homura and Ashtaroth as examples, and neither seem to have duplicates. It is certainly possible but- huh...
[] Let Sayaka call her friends, pretending to be local!Sayaka who is completely ordinary, in order to get information on Mitakihara without revealing the terrible Sayacret.
Wait, no, does Ash know she time-travelled? *rereads last threadmark*
Oh, wait, this might be relevant to the "multiple Sayakas" debate:
[sarcasm]This will be unfailingly hilarious and cannot possibly cause problems.[/sarchasm]
I still doubt that there are more Sayakas to eat. So far we only have Homura and Ashtaroth as examples, and neither seem to have duplicates. It is certainly possible but- huh...
[] Let Sayaka call her friends, pretending to be local!Sayaka who is completely ordinary, in order to get information on Mitakihara without revealing the terrible Sayacret.
Wait, no, does Ash know she time-travelled? *rereads last threadmark*
Oh, wait, this might be relevant to the "multiple Sayakas" debate:
Compared to...
The dizziness could be from having her soul ripped from its body and stuffed into a witch to correct the "simultaneous identical unique souls" paradox. This would in turn support my own Sayacorpse theory. I wonder if Sayaka's soul can puppet two corpses simultaneously, and can we hijack only one of them? I suspect the extra corpse would be lost in the time-travel, so we wouldn't be able to farm endless Sayacorpses.
There are professionals?
I am thinking that this is some sort of experience-sense. She say Ashtaroth's time-as-a-witch or notable-kills or something. Except... I guess that Sayaka having no soul would be intimidating. Or it was a power-level scouter and sensed the limitless might of Homura's hair that we ate.