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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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Nevis said:
I see where you are coming from but I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. We are going to be rebuilding these areas at a loss to German money reserves and we are not going to be profiteering/doing extractive capitalism in them. Bear in mind that the candidates that we like are going to be pro-worker egalitarians and not oligarchs looking to get their mates rich.
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its not that im thinking we'll empower some oligarch, we are not that stupid. what im saying is that we are going to build a political system thats convenient for us reather than one that avocates the necesities of the polish/others needs. Even though it seems litterally paternalistic, i see the german nation as a parent thats helping guide the newfound future of europe, these new republics are our children and as such must be allowed to make their own mistakes, we will be there to support them but they should find their alliances and friendships with us out of a desire for solidarity and trust, not as a product of our machinations.
EinPigeon said:
But we are not, that would literally be against the foundational principles of our nation
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So youre telling me that having 12 years worth of occupation, men with guns, the single biggest source of economic investment as well as the power to appoint the people in charge, we somehow arent going to poison the well so to speak in the newfangled polish political system?
a trust me bro guarantee is not enough for me. because as you said it, anything tless than total liberation "would literally be against the foundational principles of our nation".
 
iceman66 said:
its not that im thinking we'll empower some oligarch, we are not that stupid. what im saying is that we are going to build a political system thats convenient for us
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We're simply too ideological and not that cynical as a country. We will set up a german-style worker's republic because that's what we genuinely believe is the best and we can't imagine doing anything else.
 
iceman66 said:
as well as the power to appoint the people in charge, we somehow arent going to poison the well so to speak in the newfangled polish political system?
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where in the hell did you get the idea that we can appoint the people in charge? The most power we have over their elections and the people who govern the nation would be the soft power we have for liberating them!
 
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Citizens.

My brothers/sisters/siblings.

Why in the fuck did we just fight a major continental war if we didn't want to be involved in the building of new states.
 
Rather than appointing a guy in charge what we'd probably do is void a vote and demand a re-election if we uncovered some kind of conspiracy or scandal. Obviously we would expose the scandal and show what went wrong first.

Nerdorama said:
Citizens.

My brothers/sisters/siblings.

Why in the fuck did we just fight a major continental war if we didn't want to be involved in the building of new states.
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We pressed the "show superiority" button for that juicy 100 adm, 100 dip, 100 mil.
 
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Regency said:
News to me that we're building elite patronage system of corpo-state in these countries. Germany must've transformed into a rapacious liberal capitalist state without us looking.

Also, we're not just helping them rebuild, we're helping em eradicate any power the aristocratic & high-capitalist classes have and as many measures and paths such classes can take to re-accumulate societal power and influence. The new state & the strength of necessary non-governmental groups (e.g. labor unions) is still up against old internal powers so we're helping them build up.
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what im saying is that saying youre a democracy doesnt make a nation democratic. and youc can be communist and imperialistic too (see anything the soviet union did in europe) we have a very difficult job ahead in that we will shift the balance of power of the countries we are now responsible for and we need to do it in such a way so as to not intervene too much and preserve the power into the hands of the right people. What i fear is that the right people are nothing more than german puppets because its convenient for us. what im saying is how can we ensure the most rights for the people without interfering so that they are free and independent nations, not newfound subjects of the commie german empire. the longer we stay, the stronger the chance of us affecting that further increases. its a balancing act, thats why i chose 8 years.
 
iceman66 said:
what im saying is that saying youre a democracy doesnt make a nation democratic. and youc can be communist and imperialistic too (see anything the soviet union did in europe) we have a very difficult job ahead in that we will shift the balance of power of the countries we are now responsible for and we need to do it in such a way so as to not intervene too much and preserve the power into the hands of the right people. What i fear is that the right people are nothing more than german puppets because its convenient for us. what im saying is how can we ensure the most rights for the people without interfering so that they are free and independent nations, not newfound subjects of the commie german empire. the longer we stay, the stronger the chance of us affecting that further increases. its a balancing act, thats why i chose 8 years.
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For us "the right people" are ordinary workers, farmers, and soldiers. There will not be a new elite. Also, crucially, we aren't the Soviet Union. We haven't been isolated and bled white.
 
iceman66 said:
intervene too much and preserve the power into the hands of the right people. What i fear is that the right people are nothing more than german puppets because its convenient for us.
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Bro, we arent intervening too much and we are literally just supervising the elections. We are not 'picking the right people' or appointing as you said before. The people will elect those that they wish to govern them and we will not be able to stop that will of the people, any ideas of authoritarian puppet states was never on the mind of anyone.
 
EinPigeon said:
where in the hell did you get the idea that we can appoint the people in charge? The most power we have over their elections and the people who govern the nation would be the soft power we have for liberating them!
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We hold so much more power, because we own everything. we are the ones giving the supplies and telling them where what gets built, we are the ones who elect the districts and who votes and how they vote. we have the authority to discredit and disempower people and the absolute final authority in regard of who shall be empowered(is it this trade union or another, should we prioritize thise cities that have shown more support or not, etc). in other words they are the ones playing the game, but we get to setup the board beforehand.
to think we only have softpower because we are liberators is naive to the extreme.
 
I wonder if we could use a plank at some point to do the stunt Cuba does and have literal schoolchildren supervise the ballot boxes. The children will surely know to impose the nefarious pro-german agenda on the poor innocent citizens of Denmark.
 
iceman66 said:
we are the ones who elect the districts and who votes and how they vote. we have the authority to discredit and disempower people and the absolute final authority in regard of who shall be empowered(is it this trade union or another, should we prioritize thise cities that have shown more support or not, etc). in other words they are the ones playing the game, but we get to setup the board beforehand.
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You are WAY overestimating the amount of power we have over these independent states, it says no where that we are literally manipulating every bit of the country for our gain, where in the hell are you getting all of these ideas that are mentioned nowhere?

Also I was using the liberation as an example as it would have been way too long to list every singe reason listing back to the start of this quest.
 
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01paradox01 said:
To be fair, That literally isn't the point of contention here. It's how long we plan on doing it, not if we should or not.
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Iceman is making an argument against Reconstruction as an idea, whether he realizes it or not. I'm aware that "no Reconstruction" isn't an option, but his entire point is that Germany intervening in the political processes of other nations is imperialism, to which I would say that a war of liberation is already intervening in the political processes of other nations.
 
iceman66 said:
We hold so much more power, because we own everything. we are the ones giving the supplies and telling them where what gets built, we are the ones who elect the districts and who votes and how they vote.
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We don't and we aren't. Every building we construct will be given to whoever uses it (the factory to the workers and the field to the farmers) and they have already had elections which means that they already have an electoral system. Germany would, at most, confirm that the electoral system has been working properly.​
 
Nevis said:
I wonder if we could use a plank at some point to do the stunt Cuba does and have literal schoolchildren supervise the ballot boxes. The children will surely know to impose the nefarious pro-german agenda on the poor innocent citizens of Denmark.
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Fights started because debates of who's dad could beat up another person's Dad could very possibly go up or possibility decrease because of the increase of responsible children instead of irresponsible adults.
 
Nerdorama said:
Iceman is making an argument against Reconstruction as an idea, whether he realizes it or not. I'm aware that "no Reconstruction" isn't an option, but his entire point is that Germany intervening in the political processes of other nations is imperialism, to which I would say that a war of liberation is already intervening in the political processes of other nations.
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im not making an argument against reconstruction as a whole. im saying that its inevitable to have an effect on the system and that we should limit ourselves as much as possible to prevent that "contamination". Im just asking for people not to be blind to the fact that every desition being made is political in one way or another. we can only adress that imbalance once people say that it exists.
 
Retired Explorer said:
We don't and we aren't. Every building we construct will be given to whoever uses it (the factory to the workers and the field to the farmers) and they have already had elections which means that they already have an electoral system. Germany would, at most, confirm that the electoral system has been working properly.​
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theres a 100 factories waiting to be rebuilt, and we get to choose which 5 we focus on for the first 3 months. That decision is political, and no matter how well intentioned, whomever we choose to help first now has a political advantage in regard to others in the political space. its impossible to remove this fact from existance, but not acknowledging that it exists will only serve to further our interest int the most perverse and imperialistic of ways
 
iceman66 said:
im not making an argument against reconstruction as a whole. im saying that its inevitable to have an effect on the system and that we should limit ourselves as much as possible to prevent that "contamination". Im just asking for people not to be blind to the fact that every desition being made is political in one way or another. we can only adress that imbalance once people say that it exists.
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But why don't we want to have an effect on the system? Are we not doing this in the first place because we believe ideologically in our own system and want to spread radical democratic socialism to as much of the world as possible? Influence is needed for a lot of things. If we want to spread our material interests to exploit other countries, yes we could use influence for that. But we also need to use our influence to spread our system of government to these new states, and saying we should take a hands-off approach is the same as saying we shouldn't be spreading our ideology or systems in the first place.
 
Retired Explorer said:
We don't and we aren't. Every building we construct will be given to whoever uses it (the factory to the workers and the field to the farmers) and they have already had elections which means that they already have an electoral system. Germany would, at most, confirm that the electoral system has been working properly.​
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I'd like to be that optimistic, but people have already been chatting on discord about how they want to seize the factories and place it under the control of the new state. Nationalization versus worker ownership is going to be a very contentious topic during the reconstruction period (I'd bet it's the issue that will divide the wartime unity government)
 
C_Z said:
I'd like to be that optimistic, but people have already been chatting on discord about how they want to seize the factories and place it under the control of the new state. Nationalization versus worker ownership is going to be a very contentious topic during the reconstruction period (I'd bet it's the issue that will divide the wartime unity government)
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Republicans/communists/socialists/syndicalists/anarchists infighting? Impossible! :V
 
[x] We will guarantee enduring democracy with an extended reconstruction process.
 
iceman66 said:
theres a 100 factories waiting to be rebuilt, and we get to choose which 5 we focus on for the first 3 months. That decision is political, and no matter how well intentioned, whomever we choose to help first now has a political advantage in regard to others in the political space. its impossible to remove this fact from existance, but not acknowledging that it exists will only serve to further our interest int the most perverse and imperialistic of ways
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So what? We shouldn't build any factory because choosing to build one would mean that we can't build another? What you are argueing is in favour of paralysis and if we don't act no factory will be built and everyone will suffer. Can we solve all suffering at once? No, but we can solve some suffering bit by bit.
 
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