[x] We will guarantee enduring democracy with an extended reconstruction process.
Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest
- Thread starter Etranger
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But, the Marshall Plan lasted for only like, 3 to 4 years.
I don't want a thorough Reconstruction. I want a simple Reconstruction with enough trust given to the new republics. But, since I haven't seen a vote on the first choice and I'm rp'ing a fervent Communists, I'm fully committed to the third choice.
Solarstream
It's all in the cards
- Location
- Zombie World
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] We will balance all concerns with a typical reconstruction process.
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- Your pantry
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The Marshall plan did not last 12 damn years, and it's not like the 8 year option is going to lead to them diving headfirst into authoritarianism or something. 8 years is already plenty to do what we need to do.
Rushing Reconstruction --> Rebirth of Totally-not-the-Imperial-Banner --> Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo.
Yeah... Let's avoid even the risk of going through all that again, please.
[X] We will guarantee enduring democracy with an extended reconstruction process.
Yeah... Let's avoid even the risk of going through all that again, please.
[X] We will guarantee enduring democracy with an extended reconstruction process.
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- Australia
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- She/Her
I was using the marshal plan is a example of what we are doing as people thought that this was a occupation for 12 years. But rather this is a extensive rebuilding campaign for 12 years.
This isn't like the Marshall plan. The 12-year reconstruction is aimed at imposing German political structures on them; they'll be under occupation that entire time. The Marshall plan analogue would be the 4-year program (equivalent in length to the Allied occupation of Germany postwar), followed by us legislating continued aid after that.
[x] We will balance all concerns with a typical reconstruction process.
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- Your pantry
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- He/Him
Not just a rebuilding campaign. We're also watching and handling the construction of their political system and elections, 6 of them if with the third option. That just seems completely unreasonable to me. It signals a lack of trust in the Poles, who have fought for their liberation harder than even the Germans, and that's saying something.
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- Australia
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- She/Her
We are only supervising their elections to make sure that there is not any tomfoolery. We are not manipulating or stacking them in any way, we are just ensuring the democratic process is followed. We are not telling them to be exactly like us, we are just making sure that they are free and democratic. So we are not handling them just watching for sabotage or weird ass fifth columns.
Edit: Grammar
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Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
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- They/Them
After the short reconstruction of the First Republic blew up in our face and contributed among other factors to the German Civil War, I'm super leery of implementing the 4-year reconstruction which involves targeting aristocratic and high-capitalist power and influence within the state. On the other hand, more extensive US reconstruction against slaver power (and potential attendant workarounds like the power imbalance of sharecropping, has shown success. I'd be fine with 8 years even if I prefer 12, but 4 is a non-starter.
A lot of people in Germany would start the third revolution if they even caught a bit of that happening and that the government would not change that immediately....
banana republics were democracies too. im not saying we shouldnt bring democracy. we totally should, but we dont have the right to "tip the scales" in order to install friendly governments. thats why a 8 year reconstruction is more than enough. we go there, we help them rebuild, we supervise elections so that they are fair but leave them mostly be rather than having our own horses in the race.
IamtooSleepy
I came here to be an ant
Apologise, but that's not my understanding of this vote. The text of all options involves "supervised elections" in addition to the rebuilding process. I do not believe there is any particular reason to continue this supervision for more than a decade, especially when we consider whatever political restructuring we would have done during that time. At this point it would look like we are distrustful of the locals and do not believe they can get democracy right.
As for the economic reconstruction itself, the text for typical reconstruction state that the rebuilding process "can extend further outward", and if that become a vote, I will be voting to extend this process until the time where they can reach developmental parity with Germany.
Although I will admit that the extended process stated that the rebuilding process will be "thorough" and "encompass the whole of each territory", but I don't think this mean the typical process won't be effective.
[X] We will guarantee enduring democracy with an extended reconstruction process.
No half hearted efforts this time.
No half hearted efforts this time.
- Location
- Australia
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- She/Her
But we are not, that would literally be against the foundational principles of our nation, it would be like OTL Germany willfully violation human rights.
Ivan the Not-so-Terrible
AH MEW CHEEKI BREEKI I V DAMKE
- Location
- Mikonyan’s USSR
[X] We will balance all concerns with a typical reconstruction process.
- Location
- Your pantry
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- He/Him
That happened with the first republic? No wonder people are picking the 12 year option. I guess some questers are still getting flashbacks from that, but even then, 8 years is literally double that amount of time. If we can't get things done well in 8 damn years… I'd question the competence of the German state.
I see where you are coming from but I don't think that's a reasonable comparison. We are going to be rebuilding these areas at a loss to German money reserves and we are not going to be profiteering/doing extractive capitalism in them. Bear in mind that the candidates that we like are going to be pro-worker egalitarians and not oligarchs looking to get their mates rich.
What happened was that there was normal/long reconstruction periods for most areas and then when Prussia fell apart one party basically forced through the immediate integration of Silesia, without reconstruction. This gave them a strong conservative base which they used to seize power, leading to the civil war.
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- Australia
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- She/Her
I can understand the caution in your opinion and if this were a soviet style of "supervising" elections than i would strongly oppose it. My opinion on what is being presented is that it is just the defense of the newly created democratic systems and the lets say polish people can choose whatever they wish for in there elections to govern them. No hand on the scale or manipulation, just guarding and protecting.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We can simply propose to the whole Alliance end them early if, say, Poland achieves it before then (and it would be cheaper than the "proper" 8-year reconstruction due to the way the budgeting works). Hell those states themselves could also argue for the reconstruction to end before the 12 year point is reached (I'm fine if they've went thru at least 8 when the time comes). In my view, 12 is the maximum amount of time as a "just in case".
News to me that we're building elite patronage system of corpo-state in these countries. Germany must've transformed into a rapacious liberal capitalist state without us looking.
Also, we're not just helping them rebuild, we're helping em eradicate any power the aristocratic & high-capitalist classes have and as many measures and paths such classes can take to re-accumulate societal power and influence. The new state & the strength of necessary non-governmental groups (e.g. labor unions) is still up against old internal powers so we're helping them build up.
I'll reiterate that we can end it earlier (and less costly than a "normal" 8-year reconstruction), edit: with the democratic mechanism as outlined above. Probably propose a plank to create a Pan-Alliance assessment that includes delegates from the countries being reconstructed as verification measure (tho maybe etran makes such a measure automatic as part of the reconstruction admin).
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