Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

Would occupying Hungary and Slovakia let us move into the Balkans more easily if/when that whole situation explodes?

I'm also worried that poking the Tsar + severe reparations on top of that is going to turn Imperial Russia into the same sort of basket case that France turned into after the Franco-Prussian war. If you're going to go all in on provoking Russia than just sabotage the talks and fight it out now.
 
End of an Empire is easily the best plan here. Capitalize on where we've won and get ready to fight another day.
 
I will not support any peace that leaves the Austrian and Russian monarchies intact

The very idea of peace negotiations is a treason against liberty. The war must continue until the Tsar is toppled


We are so close to instigating revolt against the Tsar, let us not squander all our work now
We genuinely can't afford that. At a certain point, we do have to peace out, unfortunately. A charge against impossible odds is neither noble nor brave, it is merely folly.
 
[] Plan: Austria Delenda Est
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall be independent.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

+1 Leverage

[] Plan: Time of Troubles
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive Bohemia-Moravia, Austrian Silesia, and Trieste.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria must pay modest reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

+1 Leverage

[] Plan: Rewriting the Map
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall be independent.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria must pay modest reparations.
-[] The other League states must be reorganized.

+1 Leverage

[] Plan: We Are Here To Negotiate Your Surrender
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

-4 Leverage

Just my thoughts on three workable plans and an intentional torpedo that's still acceptable if they somehow go for it.
 
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[] Plan Peace Out v2
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall be independent.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

This is at +1 leverage and would be automatically accepted. Demanding an indemnity would not be accepted.

Updated my plan since TMR convinced me.
Conveniently the same thing I arrived at independently with Austria Delenda Est.
 
Anyway, I support @Zimmerwald1915's plan, but as a jumping off point for negotiation rather than an attempt to restart the war. We're in such a dominant military position that we can afford to play some hardball and see what kind of offer the League comes back to us with.
 
The funny thing with "We are here to Negotiate Your Surrender" is we could totally do it 1917 style, where we go, "Here are our demands, pray we don't have to negotiate further" and just tear up more of Austria to get them.

I might prefer Peace Out v2, but "We are here to Negotiate Your Surrender" is pretty tempting.
 
Anyway, I support @Zimmerwald1915's plan, but as a jumping off point for negotiation rather than an attempt to restart the war. We're in such a dominant military position that we can afford to play some hardball and see what kind of offer the League comes back to us with.
If the League comes back with a counteroffer to my plan (it might not, –2 Leverage is just on the edge of unacceptable) I suspect it will be along the lines of "fine for the most part but stay out of Lithuania, you never even occupied it." Which is a rational stance but not one I am in a mood to accept (because we could easily occupy the whole area up to the Daugava now that Austria is broken as a force and we can shift our offensives entirely to Russia).
 
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The funny thing with "We are here to Negotiate Your Surrender" is we could totally do it 1917 style, where we go, "Here are our demands, pray we don't have to negotiate further" and just tear up more of Austria to get them.

I might prefer Peace Out v2, but "We are here to Negotiate Your Surrender" is pretty tempting.
That plan makes us responsible for reconstructing Poland *and* all of the Habsburg empire without any reparations whatsoever to finance the process when we're almost certainly up to our eyeballs in debt ourselves from the war. It's bad, bad idea.
 
[] Plan: We Are Here To Negotiate Your Surrender
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

-4 Leverage
Hmm, I wonder what happens if we inflict the same punishments on the other league states while not demanding reparations?

Otherwise, I like this one.
 
Just a reminder for people voting for an independent Poland:

-Prussia is a hand grenade waiting to go off to sabotage our relations with an independent Poland. Reminder that its full of German nationalists.
-Poland had a strong and very moderate liberal-cooperationist political current that might want to chart a way of neutrality between Russia and Germany trying to play us off each other.
 
Just a reminder for people voting for an independent Poland:

-Prussia is a hand grenade waiting to go off to sabotage our relations with an independent Poland. Reminder that its full of German nationalists.
-Poland had a strong and very moderate liberal-cooperationist political current that might want to chart a way of neutrality between Russia and Germany trying to play us off each other.
Also, Polish self-determination as applied to the "independent Poland" option is a misnomer, inasmuch as it necessarily cedes Memelland (an integral part of Prussia) and eastern Galicia (an integral part of Poland) to Russia. The only option which preserves Poland intact is placing it, Lithuania, and Galicia under Allied control.
 
[] Free Poland, Destroy the Hapsburgs
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall be independent.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria must pay modest reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.

This is an alternate plan that demands reparations. It is Leverage 0 so it won't be automatically accepted and it will piss off the entente even if it goes through. But people have raised concerns about taking the Hapsburg Empire without reparation.
 
Also, Polish self-determination as applied to the "independent Poland" option is a misnomer, inasmuch as it necessarily cedes Memelland (an integral part of Prussia) and eastern Galicia (an integral part of Poland) to Russia. The only option which preserves Poland intact is placing it, Lithuania, and Galicia under Allied control.
That's a valid point. Let me whip something up quickly.
 
[] Plan: Hammer Austria
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall remain under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.

-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


Reposting fully fleshed out.
 
Three plans come to my mind. First, here's the cautious one, aiming to end the war while securing our gains and staying on the Entente's good side:

[] Secure Gains, Eliminate Hapsburg (1+ Leverage)
-[] We will engage in good faith.

-[] Poland shall remain under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


This leaves us in direct control of a large, but not excessive amount of territory. It would allow us to either absorb those regions (if the local population is willing), or otherwise set up sister republics while avoiding being overstretched and retaining the means to properly support and stabilize them. Hapsburg is eliminated, doing a lot to secure our eastern flank. Relations with the Entente will be improved, securing our western flank.

An acceptable outcome, though unambitious and a bit disappointing. Still, perhaps the wisest option.


Secondly, here's something a bit more risky:

[] Maximal Gains, Eliminate Hapsburg (-1 Leverage)
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.

-[] Poland shall remain under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


As above, but we want it all - the maximal amount of territory we can demand and still have a reasonable chance that our terms will be accepted. We'll have to act more bellingerent during the negotiations, to make it clear that we're prepared to enforce our demands militarily if we're refused. And if we are refused, we need to follow through on that threat and fight on.

Truth be told, I don't particularly like this plan. It smells a bit like hypocrisy, like we're grasping for as much power and control as we can. But if it succeeds, it would get us that power and control. Which would be undeniably useful.


Finally, the radical plan:

[] Dispense Liberation, Eliminate Hapsburg (-1 Leverage)
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


The aim here would be too get as many people as possible out from under the Imperial League's boot and create a strong Polish sister republic to guard our eastern flank against Russia (possibly a Lithuanian and Galician republic as well). In order to have a chance of doing so, we'd give up direct control over the fate of Hungary and Slovakia.

I see potential in all those plans. One thing should be non-negotiable, however: The Hapsburg Empire can not be allowed continued existence. Destroying it was our central war aim alongside the liberation of Poland. Giving up on that would almost certainly bite us in the ass some decades down the line. So let's not do that.
 
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[] Plan: The limits of our ambition
-[] We will engage in good faith.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


Taking into account @Zimmerwald1915 point about borders in the East. Galician oil wells falling under alliance control will soften the blow of not getting reparations at least.
 
[] Plan: The limits of our ambition
-[] We will engage in good faith.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


Taking into account @Zimmerwald1915 point about borders in the East. Galician oil wells falling under alliance control will soften the blow of not getting reparations at least.

What leverage does this leave us at?
 
[] Plan: Take a Mile but cede an Inch
-[] We will cast down tyrants and liberate nations.
-[] Poland shall be independent.
-[] The Alliance shall additionally take Slovakia and Hungary.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be placed under Alliance control.
-[] Russia and Austria must pay modest reparations.

the idea behind this plan is simple, poland is a friend. if we free them and set them on the right path we can ensure a trustworthy ally. Sure we might not get a fully communist nation, but we can work with market socialists as long as we invest into building up ties between our coops, militaries etc.

Hapsburgs must die, the question is if we should be responsible for the last part of the empire, the ones that really hate us. we can not feasibly hold on to the occupied territory so we will be forced to release sister republics which might end up not being communist because we have so little support in those areas which is a problem. however the alternative is to make a regular partition which will ensure more monarchies in the balkans which are already set to be a bloodbath, we dont need more western involvement in the area(which a partition is sure to involve).

reparations are useful for 2 reasons, first it holds back russian stabilization and rearmament efforts and second it allows us extra money to funnel into our sister new neighbors (especially poland which will be subject to many a good deal by the western nations, whilst we will have to contend with full austrian reconstruction at the same time)

this plan has 0 leverage but we could easily accept a counter offer by ignoring the reps (which while useful are not critical to the project)
 
[] Plan: The limits of our ambition
-[] We will engage in good faith.
-[] Poland, Lithuania, and Galicia shall be placed under Allied control.
-[] The Alliance shall receive the old Confederal borders.
-[] The Habsburg Empire must be partitioned.
-[] Russia and Austria do not have to pay reparations.
-[] The other League states shall not be punished.


Taking into account @Zimmerwald1915 point about borders in the East. Galician oil wells falling under alliance control will soften the blow of not getting reparations at least.
I would suggest that any plan with negative leverage should have "cast down tyrants and liberate nations" as our negotiation style. As I understand it, negative leverage means the enemy will either not give in at all, or they will only do so because they're afraid of us. So if we want a plan with negative leverage to be accepted, we better make sure to make them fear us.

"Good faith" signals that we earnestly want an end to the war, which has definite advantages as well, but is disadvantageous if we want to push through demands which the enemy will only be willing to accept under (additional) duress. In that case, we need to signal our willingness to spill more blood.
 
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