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- Te Ika-a-Māui
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Realistically we can probably demolish the Austrian empire plus knock loose Poland and possibly some of the other Russian colonies.
Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest
- Thread starter Etranger
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- Original Alt. History
In that case, let's dare to be bold.
[] Plan: Bold Action (Gold & Red Edition)
-[] [POLAND] Initiate an offensive toward Konigsberg (Gold).
-[] [AUSTRIA] Initiate an offensive toward Klagenfurt (Red).
-[] [ITALY] Ask the Allies to initiate a full offensive.
-[] [BALTIC] Deploy the Allied fleet to contest the eastern Baltic Sea.
-[] [MED] Ask the Allies to threaten the Dalmatian coast.
IamtooSleepy
I came here to be an ant
I just want to link up with Italian/Spanish armies and have them go down to raise hell in the Balkan.
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Do we know what the casualty numbers are looking like?
DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
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- Occupied Catalonian Countries
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The main debate, as I see it, is Vienna or Brno; the first would plausibly collapse all Austrian capacity to resist, particularly if paired with an attack on Lvov. The second would damage it irrevocably and set the stage for a more sweeping offensive in the fall (which, I must note, is not optimal campaigning season).
Higher than anyone wants them to be.
- Location
- USA
We should march on Vienna not just because it would represent a dagger directly to the heart of the empire of the perfidious Habsburgs, but because we effectively control whatever portion of the Danube we're willing to push into. The Austrians functionally no longer have a riverine navy, and we can use the Danube itself to extend our logistical tether to stab directly at the city. We have the Marinewehr and we have the Austrians still reeling after losing Bohemian industry; let's just do it and be legends.
EDIT: We wouldn't even need to necessarily take or even fully encircle Vienna to accomplish some major strategic goals. The mere threat of Vienna falling would make the Austrians 'reassess their strategic posture', i.e. fucking panic. Austrian armies coming from the south to meet us would need to cross the Danube, which will be a rather fraught process with the Marinewehr patrolling and blowing up any barges or pontoons they try to send across. Encircling Vienna would accomplish the goal of paralyzing the Austrian rail network in its entirety, but even cutting off the east from the west via a partial encirclement would be a devastating blow. We could easily scale back operations as we needed to and still seriously wound them.
EDIT: We wouldn't even need to necessarily take or even fully encircle Vienna to accomplish some major strategic goals. The mere threat of Vienna falling would make the Austrians 'reassess their strategic posture', i.e. fucking panic. Austrian armies coming from the south to meet us would need to cross the Danube, which will be a rather fraught process with the Marinewehr patrolling and blowing up any barges or pontoons they try to send across. Encircling Vienna would accomplish the goal of paralyzing the Austrian rail network in its entirety, but even cutting off the east from the west via a partial encirclement would be a devastating blow. We could easily scale back operations as we needed to and still seriously wound them.
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Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
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- They/Them
This is my preferre plan rn. The League has shown that they'll pull all stops at defending Vienna. So, we pour more of our better manpower & armaments to a Vienna offensive, which would also allow our Allies greater leeway in their offensive into Alpine Austria & Slovenia.
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- France
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Do we really need to abandon a push on the Russian front entirely to go for Brno? If we're doing the final push on Vienna maybe I can see it but Brno should just be mop up and a lot of their troops are still tied into the alpine line and fortifying Vienna itself.
I'd also be worried about a Russian counterattack.
Our allies' strikes are just diversions really? They're not really well positioned to break through unless those defenses are really abandoned. We shouldn't see a push on Vienna as a distraction for them, the situation is the polar opposite to that.
Unless you think we absolutely have to peace out next turn, I think it's much better to continue encircling Vienna than to start pushing without it.
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I think you"re underestimating the Italians, @Nyvis. If we assume that threatening Dalmatia draws away the bare minimum of one army then they have a 2:1 numerical edge against fortifications that have been severely degraded and which they have extremely detailed reconnaissance on. They can absolutely win in that theater even if we go for Brno.
That said, attacking Vienna or Klagenfurt is likely to cause the Italians to win much harder than otherwise. Threatening Vienna immediately forces them to take troops of the Alps that they can't afford and which will lead to the garrison they leave behind getting crushed, while Klagenfurt just encircles the whole army. In either case we will likely inflict much heavier casualties than we could otherwise expect, forcing Austria to be even more reliant on green conscripts.
Also, of course, I think it's very possible we could actually just take Vienna this turn, lol.
That said, attacking Vienna or Klagenfurt is likely to cause the Italians to win much harder than otherwise. Threatening Vienna immediately forces them to take troops of the Alps that they can't afford and which will lead to the garrison they leave behind getting crushed, while Klagenfurt just encircles the whole army. In either case we will likely inflict much heavier casualties than we could otherwise expect, forcing Austria to be even more reliant on green conscripts.
Also, of course, I think it's very possible we could actually just take Vienna this turn, lol.
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nachtingale
20. On that "honk, mimimi" type beat everyday.
- Location
- Malaysia
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I utterly disagree with this line of thinking, time and time again we have been made aware that the Habsburgs have a far better position in Hungarian politics than otl, to simply take Vienna would mean the Habsburgs escaping to Budapest to continue the war from there. It will be a great tactical marvel to smash through the stubborn Austrian reactionaries once and for all, that I do not disagree with. However, I do not believe this is as decisive of a campaign as our fellow questers wish, and I fear that it may finally trigger an Entente response before the final annihilation of the Austrian Empire is complete.
Furthermore, I see no reason why we must throw our soldiers at Vienna now, when we have no pressure to do so immediately. Why waste lives when we can save them for a more secure and devastating campaign, sweeping across both Vienna and the Pannonian Basin before the Habsburgs have time to regroup and retreat? Before the Entente may swoop in as the sensible negotiators of a Peace with Honor?
This is why I believe that Case Vigo would be more apt for our interests, allowing for a better prepared offensive against Vienna come Fall, once Brno opens up yet another festering wound on the side of Vienna's defenders.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
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- They/Them
Then the subsequent offensive against Vienna would be harder and harder, because the League has shown that they're willing to lodge German foothold on Austria, as they have shown by retaking Salzburg. Sacrificing, say, Brno would be worth it to them.
Also no, I do not position an offensive on Vienna as a distraction, you're inventing nonexistant words out of my post. I am simply noting the pattern of League behavior that an offensive on Vienna would make an Allied offensive from the Italian front to be more likely to succeed. If the Habsburg bite on the diversionary strikes? Good, it means we're much more likely to take Vienna than before & then push to pin their Alpine defenses against the attacking Italians.
DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
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- Occupied Catalonian Countries
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1. Why are you writing like that
2. The longer the war goes on, the more casualties that will happen, not the opposite
3. We just got a bunch of international goodwill
4. The capture of Vienna, Lvov, and the link-up with Italy would turn Austria into a total sidepiece, allowing us to focus on Russia entirely
I think the idea that the Brits are going to immediately swoop in the instant we take Vienna is pretty unlikely. We just got a ton of goodwill specifically from the Brits because we literally bribed them with colonies.
It's far, far more likely that we get like, notifications of British pleasure as our relationship deteriorates? They aren't going to suddenly impose a blockade without warning they're going to express concern and steadily escalate.
I also think that the ability for the Austrian Empire to fight on from Hungary is totally overstated. Industry or not, they'll have lost half of their territory and a hell of a lot of manpower.
It's far, far more likely that we get like, notifications of British pleasure as our relationship deteriorates? They aren't going to suddenly impose a blockade without warning they're going to express concern and steadily escalate.
I also think that the ability for the Austrian Empire to fight on from Hungary is totally overstated. Industry or not, they'll have lost half of their territory and a hell of a lot of manpower.
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DanBaque
Let's Have Fun
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- Occupied Catalonian Countries
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Also, like, they'd be cut off. If we take Lvov that's Galicia lost for them, which cuts them off from Russia and allows us to apply divide and conquer. Moreover, Hungary is a lot better terrain to fight in during fall or winter than Vienna or other mountainous regions.
nachtingale
20. On that "honk, mimimi" type beat everyday.
- Location
- Malaysia
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1. Sorry, got used to writing like that on accident, forgive my excessive larping
2. The casualties we'd need to take Vienna this turn would not be required if we take Brno first, sidestepping the heavy fortifications around Vienna by stretching their forces further north (unless they want us to run free in Hungary). People have said that we could take it a la Prague with ease, but I'd rather not risk it when there's a perfectly sensible strategic option to weaken their defenses before we actually do attack them.
3. The international perception of a "good war with a just peace" is still fundamentally agreeing to peace once the capital of one side has fallen, and I would very much not like to test what happens with the Entente once we take Vienna and are then immediately forced into a ceasefire by the Entente. While we could just refuse to accept peace, that'd sour our goodwill with the Entente real fast, and allow the League precious time to regroup and consolidate their forces
4. No? Like, Hungary still has a lot of gas in it's tank if the Habsburgs really want to fight to the bitter end, as much as I would not like to appear to be overestimating the capabilities of the Austrians. Furthermore, that would still tie up some manpower that we could use for a push in Poland, attacking Brno would make for an easier transition towards a Hungarian campaign, mopping it up before it poses a dilemma for our forces on the Austrian front whether to shift forces to Russia or keep needed manpower in Hungary for what could possibly be another extra season or two.
I think the fact that Russia is still at war with us will put off a ceasefire, they will still think they're better than us and that they can retake Vienna. Even if we get "forced" into negotiations we can simply demand unacceptable terms to make the war continue.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
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- They/Them
Some thoughts:
1. If we go for Brno we should reallocate troops from Poland to curb the risk of the League retaking Linz by doing another offensive like the one which lost us Salzburg. The Allies should only do probing attacks.
2. If we go for Vienna, we should reallocate troops from Poland to, well, increase our chance of taking it. The Allies should go for a dedicated offensive with the League focused on defending Vienna.
3. If we go for Klagenfurt, we should reallocate troops from Poland to increase our chance of taking it. The Allies should also go for a dedicated offensive from the South to curb the impact of a League pincer attempt on the Klagenfurt attack from the north.
4. We should *not* reallocate troops from Austria if we opt to turtle there in the Summer while focusing on beating up Russia edit:to prevent from losing our foothold in Linz. The Allies should only do probing attacks.
1. If we go for Brno we should reallocate troops from Poland to curb the risk of the League retaking Linz by doing another offensive like the one which lost us Salzburg. The Allies should only do probing attacks.
2. If we go for Vienna, we should reallocate troops from Poland to, well, increase our chance of taking it. The Allies should go for a dedicated offensive with the League focused on defending Vienna.
3. If we go for Klagenfurt, we should reallocate troops from Poland to increase our chance of taking it. The Allies should also go for a dedicated offensive from the South to curb the impact of a League pincer attempt on the Klagenfurt attack from the north.
4. We should *not* reallocate troops from Austria if we opt to turtle there in the Summer while focusing on beating up Russia edit:to prevent from losing our foothold in Linz. The Allies should only do probing attacks.
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- Location
- France
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- She/They
If we reallocate troops from Russia, Russia will either push us or reallocate troops to Austria. I think we should have a push on each front to keep both enemies busy instead. I guess we could go for Lvov so that next turn we can reallocate troops to the push for Vienna without risk of Russia shuttling more troops into Austria in response but then we'd have a very long Polish front to defend while we're pushing Vienna.
I think our best bet remain pushing targets of opportunity in Russia to keep them busy while we set up our strike on Vienna.
nachtingale
20. On that "honk, mimimi" type beat everyday.
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- Malaysia
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While true that the attitude of the Russians would probably make them outright reject that demand, I think having the Austrians be so crippled that it might genuinely pose a threat for the Russian flank might make them consider a false peace for the time being. I'm not denying that we should simply give our maximalist aims and allow the negotiations to fall through, but that would still waste precious time unless we want to burn that goodwill with the Entente immediately by continuing the war during the negotiations.
Russia has proven unable to push us out of the routine fortifications we throw up everywhere we go, and shifting troops also gets us the benefit of a fortification action. I think we're safe on that front for a turn, especially since they almost certainly haven't managed to reorganize their logistics yet.
We also have a major advantage in strategic speed. If we transfer armies out of Poland, Russia will not have time to shift men to Austria in response until the end of the season—that's how it worked last time.
We can always say "Yes, sure, we can have peace. We demand the entirety of the former Austrian empire, Poland, Livonia, and for the Tsar to be deposed in favour of a republic." Something they literally cannot accept.
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- France
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There's a cost though. Russia has also proven itself unable to stop our pushes at current troop numbers, and shifting troops out is one turn of not taking objectives from them, whether that's Lvov and their connection to Austria or Konigsberg and their fleet basing.
