Spirit Quest

[Umi-san]

[X] [Sangere 4] Slaves
-[X] [Sangere 4] 20.

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Not possible.
0-10.

Edit:
@Oshha Could have been more description of art, architecture, how land is divided, etc. Definite aspects of Greece. Concept of a spirit who's perfectly fine not doing much other than blessing people and receiving worship is very interesting. Amusing that they picked the wrong people to raid. Deaths with no return.

Edit 2:
Altered my vote for 1 to match Raichu's.
My intent w/ the 10 wives, 10 slaves, 20 kids is to have a 2 adults: 2 children match. That way when they come here they can establish households if they wish, so that they can have people of a culture they're more comfortable with. I feel that that's a better path to assimilation than straight up shoving them into our households with different ways.

 

[NotteBoy97]

Seven Chiefs rule over Sangere with warrior-farmers supporting them.

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I think this is a very important thing to keep in mind when dealing with the Sangere since we have aspect of the Chief. Next turn if we can I think we should try and find a Sangere farmer-warrior we find agreeable and bless him so that he can quickly raise to the top and begin influencing Sangere in a way we find acceptable.

 

[Zaealix]

[X] [Sangere 1] Accept the wives and slaves, but let it be known that any who enter Avawyr are free to live as they please, so long as they follow our rules. Any slaves who enter Avawyr are to live as free men, and "wives" accepted shall have no obligation to marry anyone, and any children taken shall be raised by the entirely of Avawyr, including the Pantheon itself if need be.
[X] [Sangere 2] Accept Catlyn into Avawyr.
-[X] [Sangere 2] Just let her live in the village.
[X] [Sangere 3] Accept the request
These I think are fine.
I however, would like to REFUSE the tribute, on the idea that that comes from Southerner thinking, and that accepting while saying slavery and whatnot is wrong will come across as hypocritical, and it's the slavery system/assumptions that they're working under.

 

[Umi-san]

I think this is a very important thing to keep in mind when dealing with the Sangere since we have aspect of the Chief. Next turn if we can I think we should try and find a Sangere farmer-warrior we find agreeable and bless him so that he can quickly raise to the top and begin influencing Sangere in a way we find acceptable.

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Ah yes, the "we're the god of leaders so worship us for your own advantage (so that we can assimilate you)" approach. Ingenious.

 

[Raichu1972]

[X] [Sangere 1] Accept the wives and slaves, but let it be known that any who enter Avawyr are free to live as they please, so long as they follow our rules. Any slaves who enter Avawyr are to live as free men, and "wives" accepted shall have no obligation to marry anyone, and any children taken shall be raised by the entirely of Avawyr, including the Pantheon itself if need be.
[X] [Sangere 2] Accept Catlyn into Avawyr.
-[X] [Sangere 2] Just let her live in the village.
[X] [Sangere 3] Accept the request
These I think are fine.
I however, would like to REFUSE the tribute, on the idea that that comes from Southerner thinking, and that accepting while saying slavery and whatnot is wrong will come across as hypocritical, and it's the slavery system/assumptions that they're working under.

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I personally prefer "take 40 people as "tribute" and save them from slavery" to the "refuse and let people suffer because of your morals" approach.

 

[Umi-san]

I personally prefer the "take 40 people and save them from slavery and being forced to bear a child every cycle" approach solely because I want 40 people every cycle. That steady population growth. That increased power due to worship. Hnng.

 

[Oshha]

For the record, by the standards of Sangerish culture, Edryd is what you guys would call a progressive liberal. He has also genuinely fallen for Seryn. He is a good person who happened to get born in a crappy culture, but is working to change his people into something better as best as he can.

Put those things together and in two or three generations they would conquer us all. We can't let that happen...

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On the other hand, you have the Goddess of War, iron weapons and hundreds of super-soldiers and mages and while the Sangerish are currently united that is a recent thing under Edryd and even now he is starting to lose his hold over them with his repeated failures against the northerners (you guys).

I'm rather surprised that the Farmer Warriors are willing to become women though, since it seems like they would be expected to start pumping out babies as soon as they could.

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Yeah, about whole willingness think... Basically Sangerish warrior-farmers will find each other over a unmarried wife or to take the wives of another warrior-farmer. Normally, they would get dishonoured in defeat or outright killed. Now Edryd wants to use Seryn to turn those defeat warriors into a new wife for the victor in order to avoid the Sangerish going back to killing each other.

Well, Seryn is happy enough about how things are going to go I think. More Cath Wyrs! An entire Civilization she can convert to the church of Seryn! Warrior-focused culture that's going to happily convert into Cath Wyrs!
I'm sliiightly concerned about the whole 'raiding' behaviors...Buuut then again we also have those pesky Shadow monsters we need to clear out.
It's kind of concerning because I'm pretty sure Seryn is a War Goddess as well as beauty/femininity, and while those latter two aspects have been stacking/becoming the focal point the war-side of her is still a thing. With these southerners out-growing us now and later...Well, I figure our best route is to try and leverage our current cultural dominance (we're the ones with the Gift of the Mighty Body!) into enacting as much change as we can.

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Seryn is hoping to use her position as the Goddess of War to change the culture of the Sangerish rather leveraging their martial traditions with the power that her blessings grant. Gwarlon is torned between having nothing to deal with them, but he knows that they will grow into a serious threat, but he also doesn't want to kill and cause loss of life.

Now, if we had taken the war, would it have gone well? The trouble is these guys can afford to go far closer to the wire then we could, and their quantity might overwhelm our quality, especially with how the Cath Wyr seem to tend towards small warbands instead of large standing armies. On the flipside, we probably honestly could have taken them, at least well enough that in the aftermath there'd be much less Southerners then Northerners.

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Your current military doctrine is hunting packs of Cath Wyrs like lion prides. At the moment, you could take the Sangerish, but only at great loss of life and there are worries that if you leave the Sangerish still standing, they will recover quicker than you and have the advantage next time.

I'm also hoping that we can spread our family orientedness and spread it throughout Avawyr, taking advice from "it takes a village to raise a child". Maybe start some form of proto-orphanage?

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Orphans are already communally raised, but proto-orphanages will be something Eulyn, Terwyn or Morwyn will set up.

Also, @Oshha what is the Sangerish definition of "undesirable"?
Does it mean that they are brutal and disruptive even for Sangerish, or does it mean that they do not like the frankly terrible practices of the Sangerish? Or maybe some combination of the two?

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It can be summed up as anyone the current leadership doesn't like and wants to be rid of. Which covers a large variety of different people. Edryd is basically hoping to use the north as an exile spot for his opponents who opposes his liberal reforms, of which there are growing number due to you guys making him look bad with repeated failures.

@Oshha Could have been more description of art, architecture, how land is divided, etc. Definite aspects of Greece. Concept of a spirit who's perfectly fine not doing much other than blessing people and receiving worship is very interesting. Amusing that they picked the wrong people to raid. Deaths with no return.

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Give me a bit to write something up.

I think this is a very important thing to keep in mind when dealing with the Sangere since we have aspect of the Chief. Next turn if we can I think we should try and find a Sangere farmer-warrior we find agreeable and bless him so that he can quickly raise to the top and begin influencing Sangere in a way we find acceptable.

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You got one already actually. He is called Edryd and he is already in charge of Sangere.

By the way, did anybody catch the reference in the update? Looking at @Umi-san and @Raichu1972 in particular because I know they have the right knowledge.

 

[Raichu1972]

For the record, by the standards of Sangerish culture, Edryd is what you guys would call a progressive liberal. He has also genuinely fallen for Seryn. He is a good person who happened to get born in a crappy culture, but is working to change his people into something better as best as he can.



On the other hand, you have the Goddess of War, iron weapons and hundreds of super-soldiers and mages and while the Sangerish are currently united that is a recent thing under Edryd and even now he is starting to lose his hold over them with his repeated failures against the northerners (you guys).



Yeah, about whole willingness think... Basically Sangerish warrior-farmers will find each other over a unmarried wife or to take the wives of another warrior-farmer. Normally, they would get dishonoured in defeat or outright killed. Now Edryd wants to use Seryn to turn those defeat warriors into a new wife for the victor in order to avoid the Sangerish going back to killing each other.



Seryn is hoping to use her position as the Goddess of War to change the culture of the Sangerish rather leveraging their martial traditions with the power that her blessings grant. Gwarlon is torned between having nothing to deal with them, but he knows that they will grow into a serious threat, but he also doesn't want to kill and cause loss of life.



Your current military doctrine is hunting packs of Cath Wyrs like lion prides. At the moment, you could take the Sangerish, but only at great loss of life and there are worries that if you leave the Sangerish still standing, they will recover quicker than you and have the advantage next time.



Orphans are already communally raised, but proto-orphanages will be something Eulyn, Terwyn or Morwyn will set up.



It can be summed up as anyone the current leadership doesn't like and wants to be rid of. Which covers a large variety of different people. Edryd is basically hoping to use the north as an exile spot for his opponents who opposes his liberal reforms, of which there are growing number due to you guys making him look bad with repeated failures.



Give me a bit to write something up.



You got one already actually. He is called Edryd and he is already in charge of Sangere.

By the way, did anybody catch the reference in the update? Looking at @Umi-san and @Raichu1972 in particular because I know they have the right knowledge.

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I'm assuming you are talking about the girl named Ymaryn?

She seems like an interesting one, and I hope Evantine goes to us for advice when he starts having troubles being a single dad.

 

[Umi-san]

You mean naming the baby Ymaryn...?

 

[Oshha]

@Oshha Could have been more description of art, architecture, how land is divided, etc. Definite aspects of Greece. Concept of a spirit who's perfectly fine not doing much other than blessing people and receiving worship is very interesting. Amusing that they picked the wrong people to raid. Deaths with no return.

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First of all, think of the village of Sangere has a massive farm with human livestock and Esclalf as the farmer because in many ways, that what it is. Art is minimal partly because only slaves work on creative stuff and they are forced to work on necessaries and partly because the Sangerish are very utilitarian in nature. Between his three Aspects, Esclalf gives the Sangerish a massive harvest to the point that they could feed close to a hundred thousand right now. Each warrior-farmer has a crop farm (no live stock) to work while the slaves lives in the village around the shrine. A farm is sacred to the Sangerish and no warrior-farmer will try to take the farm of another warrior-farmer and anybody who harms a farm is tortured to death. If a warrior-farmer dies, a newly of age young man will take it as a new warrior farmer. If there aren't any farms available, a boy who comes of age is forced to become a slave. Slaves are forbidden from marrying or having children.

During the Growth and Harvest Seasons, warrior-farmers will tend their farmers and during the Sun Season, they will challenge each other to duels, either one on one or group on group for wives. The seven warrior-farmers with the most support (which means the most prestige and that means the most wives) becomes a Chief and earns a title. A Chief remains a Chief until killed. During the Cold Season, warrior-farmers have sex with their wives. The wives will bear children and raise the ones which have been born. Esclalf's blessings are passive as he will automatically bless each harvest and when snow falls each year, he automatically blesses each woman in Sangere to be fertile enough to bear a child. For the record, if you hadn't rescued Cadyl and Wyrn and the other prisoners, they would have counted as a woman in Sangere for the purposes of that blessing so you dodged that bullet thankfully so I didn't have to tackle it in a tastefully manner. Esclalf also heals any injured person brought to his shrine and no brought fights in Esclalf's shrines or they get rendered non-fertile. He will also bless the greatest of the Chiefs, but nobody knows what you need to do get permanently blessed.

The Sangerish don't have any direct interaction with Esclalf, but he is definitely there and central to their lives as distant, but constant figure. Until Edryd came along, the Sangerish would keep their population in check by killing each other.

Edryd is attempting to change Sangere for the better so his people don't keep butchering each other like animals each year. He first did that by gaining the most wives, nine six if you want the precise number, and taking command of Sangere with his diplo skills. He is basically a PoC Diplo and Martial Hero. He then tried to keep them together by directing them north against the outsiders, but since you have been whooping Sangerish butt, his prestige and respect has been dented by the repeated failures he has had against you. Right now, he needs to cut a deal with you to deal with Sangere's population issues otherwise his rule will fall apart.

He also has a poor deal in life as after dealing with a horrible culture and a spirit who simply doesn't care, he has had to face a goddess of war, iron-wielding super soldiers and magic-wielding mages with nothing, but ordinary, mortal skill and mundane soldiers.

I hope you guys find him to be a compelling character since you don't get to see what Caradawg is up to and Aeryn got killed by bad rolls because Edryd, Caradawg and Aeryn were meant to be the hero units of the big three powers in your region.

 

[Oshha]

I'm assuming you are talking about the girl named Ymaryn?

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You mean naming the baby Ymaryn...?

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Yes.

She seems like an interesting one, and I hope Evantine goes to us for advice when he starts having troubles being a single dad.

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Implying that Evatine is going to have trouble.

 

[Umi-san]

I hope you guys find him to be a compelling character since you don't get to see what Caradawg is up to and Aeryn got killed by bad rolls because Edryd, Caradawg and Aeryn were meant to be the hero units of the big three powers in your region.

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I genuinely do find him to a compelling character. His desire for the betterment or at least stability of his people was evident.

Side question: How much longer until we automate the field blessing?

 

[Raichu1972]

I'm surprised Merlyn isn't considered to be a Mystic Hero tbh, with his absurd skill in magic.

@Oshha since Edryd wants to change his people for the better and doesn't seem to care much for Esclalf, how willing would he be to tell us where Esclalf is so we can kill him and help him change the Sangerish?

 

[Oshha]

Side question: How much longer until we automate the field blessing?

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What field blessing? If you mean Bolster Harvest, then it is already automatic along with generic versions of heal, bless and inspire. You just get to pick two spiritual actions to put more focus on.

I'm surprised Merlyn isn't considered to be a Mystic Hero tbh, with his absurd skill in magic.

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Who said he wasn't? Wyrn is a Admin Hero/Martial Geninus while Cadyl is an upcoming Diplo/Martial Hero.

@Oshha since Edryd wants to change his people for the better and doesn't seem to care much for Esclalf, how willing would he be to tell us where Esclalf is so we can kill him and help him change the Sangerish?

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No. Edryd is a patriot not a traitor. He will not betray his people by selling out their spirit. Furthermore, Esclalf is central to the Sangerish way of life. Without him, their culture and people will collapse and Edryd knows that there is a good change that they wouldn't recover. And while he mildly likes you guys and wants to marry Seryn, he currently just wants to use you for the betterment of his people and he will do so at your expense if needed.

Also, you already know where Esclalf is. He is at his shrine in the middle of Sangere itself. He has no avatar and only the shrine and the worship of over ten thousand people.

 

[Umi-san]

@Oshha
1. Does worship provide a spirit with more power?
2. Can animals be used as a sacrifice?
3. Can humans who die without being sacrificed be used to gain more power?
4. If Esclalf is the farmer does he make use of his crops only through the worship they provide?
5. Have the Sangere been expanding their cultivated land or is Esclalf's blessing capacity already capped out in that regard?
6. Do improved shrines allow for expanded range of influence?

 

[Zaealix]

By the looks of it, any worrries we had about 'Cultures oh noes!' we can safely kiss goodbye...In faacct...I want to write-in him getting that super Fatherhood/Chieftain Perma-blessing we tried to do earlier. As I recall, it DID work, the problem is it also had strict requirements and wasn't really that great, versus The Mighty Body which was good enough to be worth it even if you weren't so keen on being a woman.

 

[Oshha]

@Oshha
1. Does worship provide a spirit with more power?
2. Can animals be used as a sacrifice?
3. Can humans who die without being sacrificed be used to gain more power?
4. If Esclalf is the farmer does he make use of his crops only through the worship they provide?
5. Have the Sangere been expanding their cultivated land or is Esclalf's blessing capacity already capped out in that regard?
6. Do improved shrines allow for expanded range of influence?

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1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) With the right Aspects. Don't ask which as you have to right out for yourself.
4) He only desires worships and resulting power from his followers. He also wants their protection against outside threats.
5) Originally, they stuck to their old lands, but under Edryd, they have recently started expanding.
6) Yes.

By the looks of it, any worrries we had about 'Cultures oh noes!' we can safely kiss goodbye...In faacct...I want to write-in him getting that super Fatherhood/Chieftain Perma-blessing we tried to do earlier. As I recall, it DID work, the problem is it also had strict requirements and wasn't really that great, versus The Mighty Body which was good enough to be worth it even if you weren't so keen on being a woman.

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You can bless people with permanent blessings, but your current set of Aspects mean that it works best on a limited range of people (leaders and fathers) whilst Seryn's work well on pretty much anybody who doesn't mind the results.

 

[Umi-san]

He will also bless the greatest of the Chiefs, but nobody knows what you need to do get permanently blessed.

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Probably bang your 96 wives amirite??

You can bless people with permanent blessings, but your current set of Aspects mean that it works best on a limited range of people (leaders and fathers) whilst Seryn's work well on pretty much anybody who doesn't mind the results.

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Hmm. How would the Sangerians like a fatherhood blessing? (Sangerish, but I don't know that I like the ish. It sounds... ethnically incorrect, somehow.)

 

[Oshha]

Hmm. How would the Sangerians like a fatherhood blessing?

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Very well. The warrior-farmers are all fathers with some like Edryd having a couple hundred kids. Please note that unlike in your villages where your spirits actively care for their followers, not all children in Sangere make it to adulthood.

 

[Raichu1972]

Very well. The warrior-farmers are all fathers with some like Edryd having a couple hundred kids. Please note that unlike in your villages where your spirits actively care for their followers, not all children in Sangere make it to adulthood.

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Does Edryd actually give a shit about his kids or does he just leave them to the wolves/ the overworked mothers?

Because I don't know how I feel about giving our fatherhood blessing to someone who is a bad parent.

 

[Metrux]

So, from what has been said so far: the sangerish used to war amongst themselves, making the growth in population practically moot; the new ruler kinda likes us, and wants our goddess daughter as his 70th wife, but would bulldoze through us if it was better for his people; they can grow alot more since food is never a problem; if we accept the things he's asking for/seryn is offering he will soon have as many if not more cath wyrs as us... I really don't see how you people see an alliance as viable. Every scenario that pass through my head sees them killing or enslaving all of us. The only advantages we have over them are metal weapons and supernatural powers, as in cath wyrs and mages... And soon, if we accept, he will have cath wyrs, besides, with their numbers weapons can be ignored, and our mages besides being in low numbers can't do much each time, undeveloped.

People, please. Even if you want peace, we cannot allow in any way for them to keep growing and/or to get Seryn and/or Cath Wyrs. Any of those will bite us not only in the ass, but eat us whole, and the three would simply guarantee it.

 

[Oshha]

Does Edryd actually give a shit about his kids or does he just leave them to the wolves/ the overworked mothers?

Because I don't know how I feel about giving our fatherhood blessing to someone who is a bad parent.

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He does care, but he also does the latter for two reasons. First is that he has too many kids to care for so he just focuses on his most promising sons (the ones which have the potential to follow his beliefs when they grown up) and the second reason is that raising kids is a female job and Edryd can't do that without losing all of his respect and prestige.

So instead he works towards making a better future for his people (which includes his kids).

So, from what has been said so far: the sangerish used to war amongst themselves, making the growth in population practically moot; the new ruler kinda likes us, and wants our goddess daughter as his 70th wife, but would bulldoze through us if it was better for his people; they can grow alot more since food is never a problem; if we accept the things he's asking for/seryn is offering he will soon have as many if not more cath wyrs as us... I really don't see how you people see an alliance as viable. Every scenario that pass through my head sees them killing or enslaving all of us. The only advantages we have over them are metal weapons and supernatural powers, as in cath wyrs and mages... And soon, if we accept, he will have cath wyrs, besides, with their numbers weapons can be ignored, and our mages besides being in low numbers can't do much each time, undeveloped.

People, please. Even if you want peace, we cannot allow in any way for them to keep growing and/or to get Seryn and/or Cath Wyrs. Any of those will bite us not only in the ass, but eat us whole, and the three would simply guarantee it.

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Seryn can revoke her Gift of the Mighty Body at will. If the Sangerish try to go against her or daddy dearest, they will do so without Seryn's help and against her full might.

Seryn's loyalty is first and foremost to her father, Gwarlon.

 

[Raichu1972]

So, from what has been said so far: the sangerish used to war amongst themselves, making the growth in population practically moot; the new ruler kinda likes us, and wants our goddess daughter as his 70th wife, but would bulldoze through us if it was better for his people; they can grow alot more since food is never a problem; if we accept the things he's asking for/seryn is offering he will soon have as many if not more cath wyrs as us... I really don't see how you people see an alliance as viable. Every scenario that pass through my head sees them killing or enslaving all of us. The only advantages we have over them are metal weapons and supernatural powers, as in cath wyrs and mages... And soon, if we accept, he will have cath wyrs, besides, with their numbers weapons can be ignored, and our mages besides being in low numbers can't do much each time, undeveloped.

People, please. Even if you want peace, we cannot allow in any way for them to keep growing and/or to get Seryn and/or Cath Wyrs. Any of those will bite us not only in the ass, but eat us whole, and the three would simply guarantee it.

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Please don't refer to it as them "getting" Seryn. She is her own person and is allowed to act as she wishes, so long as it doesn't endanger herself or others. It also seems like this Edyrd fellow is alright, and he is attempting to channel the bloodthirst of his people away from themselves.

Considering how bare bones the Sangerish are in everything besides war, I feel as though we will be able to change them from within, either through subduing Escalf so that he plays ball for us, or by getting them to start worshipping our Pantheon, and thus begin to follow our rules.

I don't see how rebuffing them and letting them stew until they take another shot at us is at all productive, when we can instead work to make them more agreeable to us through using our strengths (diplomacy and being a good person).

 

[Umi-san]

@Oshha What does a blessing of fatherhood do?

 

[Zaealix]

So, from what has been said so far: the sangerish used to war amongst themselves, making the growth in population practically moot; the new ruler kinda likes us, and wants our goddess daughter as his 70th wife, but would bulldoze through us if it was better for his people; they can grow alot more since food is never a problem; if we accept the things he's asking for/seryn is offering he will soon have as many if not more cath wyrs as us... I really don't see how you people see an alliance as viable. Every scenario that pass through my head sees them killing or enslaving all of us. The only advantages we have over them are metal weapons and supernatural powers, as in cath wyrs and mages... And soon, if we accept, he will have cath wyrs, besides, with their numbers weapons can be ignored, and our mages besides being in low numbers can't do much each time, undeveloped.

People, please. Even if you want peace, we cannot allow in any way for them to keep growing and/or to get Seryn and/or Cath Wyrs. Any of those will bite us not only in the ass, but eat us whole, and the three would simply guarantee it.

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The trick is to keep this all under the control of the guy who's a leader amongst them-if he gets his reforms through we'll be fine, and hero-wise I think he'll be more or less unopposed since Caradawg ran off. And Aeryn is dead.
HOPEFULLY not having a hero of our own isn't going to bite us in the butt too hard (Though the importance placed on Edryd& Caradawg is rather concerning.)