Ship of Fools: A Taylor Varga Omake (Complete)

You're ignoring the most important part of my post (from my perspective):
My point was that in story, any issue with time travel can be negated if the crew actively try to find ways around them. This is why I put the second part of my statement there; its basically saying that it is either possible to do safely or it is impossible because otherwise reality gets retroactively destroyed by someone eventually, assuming that it isnt being allowed because the higher power is a sadist.
Honestly, it might work better to just make time travel not possible by their method prior to a dimensional breach (ie cant save newt until the ship of fools entered Alienverse the first time or something, because otherwise someone will try until they get it right.

Edit. That or you state that you cant time travel in any universe that varga has been present in after varga is present in it because it gets noticed immediately by higher powers, so the time travel can only occur the first time and they get no do overs after that. Or at least you cant time travel in any way that isnt bypassing the speed of light so you arrive at your destination at the same time that you left since that is just teleporting.
 
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I have no real problem with that. I actually think the best way to handle it would be to have been stricter with keeping to no time travel rule. In the case with Ripley they had reason to actually do it, due to the inconsistencies between number of launched pods etc. But I can't really see why they would risk it for arriving what seems to be at the very most 20 seconds earlier during the Leviathan fight (I believe it to be much closer to 5 seconds or so). The Leviathan fight is a big issue, but even then - 20 seconds is unlikely to cause many deaths that wouldn't have happened either way, and anything less than a death can likely be fixed by Ianthe and one-shots. Using time-travel to visit Dr Strange a few days earlier than you could otherwise is kind of a grey area to me, as is the changes to Earth back in Ripley's universe.

As noted by others though, it should still have been possible to arrive earlier in the Leviathan fight without being noticed, assuming that no local shard observed them, and that they had the Assassin's cloak up. Though you could perhaps argue that the Simurgh is actively helping out with precognition during the attack and notices when it starts to have issues. I still like the story, but bringing in time-travel as an option for cases where it's not really clear that it will even improve anything means that you're pretty much doomed to end up in an argument about where to draw the line. I also think Varga and Taylor should have discussed it more if Varga was sceptical, since they're not really rushed for time, since the time in their universe isn't connected to the time in this universe.

Either way - I really enjoy this story and will keep following it. I just think that part would be have better left avoided. Then again, I don't have as big insight into the story as you have, and by this point it's probably too late to undo it either way.

Two points I would say to contradict this:

1) Body counts can ramp up FAST in an Endbringer fight. Also, there was an element of luck, as Taylor probably didn't have her departure time down to the exact second. The only truly safe approach would have been coming closer to the end of the fight...which might have meant a) BB is destroyed thanks to the huge aquifer under the city, and b) Scion might have shown up...which frankly would have been interesting in a way that I'm not quite ready to write, yet.
2) Taylor was in the SoF with the Family. She's a local cape with a local shard. As soon as she's present, the same exact thing happened as happened with TT in the original T/V timeline. Then we have scampering Endbringer.
 
My point was that in story, any issue with time travel can be negated if the crew actively try to find ways around them. This is why I put the second part of my statement there; its basically saying that it is either possible to do safely or it is impossible because otherwise reality gets retroactively destroyed by someone eventually, assuming that it isnt being allowed because the higher power is a sadist.
Honestly, it might work better to just make time travel not possible by their method prior to a dimensional breach (ie cant save newt until the ship of fools entered Alienverse the first time or something, because otherwise someone will try until they get it right.

While @Derek M may not realize it, his (or her) model for why time travel is a Bad Idea is exactly that from DSR and Taylor Varga. There are too many variables to the point where it's virtually impossible to not muck things up when messing with time. If you're lucky, the consequences are just that you never existed thus couldn't muck things up. If you're unlucky your country or world may retroactively have never existed. If you really screw things up your entire dimension and everything currently in it could cease to exist. There isn't a guiding hand behind these instances of cosmic backlash. It's the multiverse it's self acting to ensure it's continued existence. In other words, the Ship of Fools got extremely lucky with rescuing Newt and company, and Varga pointed out just how insanely lucky they got and why it's a horribly bad idea to try anything like that again.
 
I agree with @Nepsis just go to a universe where Taylor's mom was the only one that was alive and ask her if she wants to come with them to where her husband and daughter are alive.
Mcclaz threw 8 20-faced dice. Reason: Nepsis Total: 102
16 16 2 2 9 9 19 19 17 17 17 17 3 3 19 19
 
Two points I would say to contradict this:

1) Body counts can ramp up FAST in an Endbringer fight. Also, there was an element of luck, as Taylor probably didn't have her departure time down to the exact second. The only truly safe approach would have been coming closer to the end of the fight...which might have meant a) BB is destroyed thanks to the huge aquifer under the city, and b) Scion might have shown up...which frankly would have been interesting in a way that I'm not quite ready to write, yet.
2) Taylor was in the SoF with the Family. She's a local cape with a local shard. As soon as she's present, the same exact thing happened as happened with TT in the original T/V timeline. Then we have scampering Endbringer.
I concede to both your points. In my head I was working under the assumptions that they could tell the time the dimensionally displaced people exited their home universe down to an arbitrary exactness depending on how much time they spent on their calculations, that their wormhole travel could be targeted as exactly, and that the wormhole travel was essentially instant. But I don't think that's been explicitly stated in the story.

If they knew the exact time Taylor left, and could target the wormhole as exactly then part of 1) wouldn't be a problem. And if the wormhole travel time was essentially instant, then 2) wouldn't really be that big an issue either, since they are aware of the shards sharing data. Thus they could leave Skitter in the other universe, drop off the Lizards under cloak waiting for correct moment, have the ship pop out of the universe and then have it pop back in with Skitter the moment they reveal themselves. Though if the wormhole travel isn't as exact and/or fast as I had assumed, then that opens up losing valuable time for being able to use Skitter for search and rescue. We know the jump is somewhat quick, since it happens during discussions without people noticing, but any amount of seconds is enough to matter for how many lives are at risk.
 
Except they didn't have an exact time for when Taylor got hit by the grenade due to her not having looked at a watch during the fight?
 
That is the speculative fiction equivalent to, "if your wife dies, just marry her twin sister and everything will be fine."

More along the lines of "There's someone who'll likely remind you of your husband, that you might want to meet. There's no guarantees that you'll get on, of course.". But, otherwise, yes. :)
 
For all you know, the analog from the other dimension could be a master thief, serial killer, or simply only romantically interested in others of their own gender.
 
After all this debate on the subject, I think it would be hilariously ironic and deeply traumatising(for Taylor) if they looked back in time only to find that the reason the car crash happened at all was because they went back in time to save Annette. Like, talking on cell phone with Taylor, sees other Taylor on side of road getting ready to act, mind completely blanks, and car crash. Or just shock/heart attack from lizard. Went through so much pain and grief because you tried to fix things.
 
Be patient for just a little while more, Lisa.
Somewhat surprised that's not Sarah.

The problem with the butterfly effect is that even a bit of extra light or the movement of a bit of air can change things significantly as things progress.
Lyapunov exponents are fun like that.

To a first approximation a single photon hitting Hyperion would butterfly its orientation within about a decade.

There is even the question of whether or not our interpretation of "time travel" makes any sense at all in terms of how physics actually work.

An interesting analogy might be the behavior of fluids. Naive analysis suggests you get a singularity at the speed of sound... in practice you start getting subtler effects.
 
After all this debate on the subject, I think it would be hilariously ironic and deeply traumatising(for Taylor) if they looked back in time only to find that the reason the car crash happened at all was because they went back in time to save Annette. Like, talking on cell phone with Taylor, sees other Taylor on side of road getting ready to act, mind completely blanks, and car crash. Or just shock/heart attack from lizard. Went through so much pain and grief because you tried to fix things.
And to avoid this, any intervention in the past should be approached wisely.

If your time model assumes that changing the past can end on the whole scale from "everything went perfect" to "everything is catastrophically bad, everyone out of the universe!" then changing the past is permissible only if you are absolutely sure that the change and its consequences will be perfect. And before changing the past, you have to make another time travel (without interfering at all!) and carefully observe whether you really make a change and whether it will pass as planned (for the entire period up to your present).
So you will have two options:
- "the change will be perfect, because you saw that it was perfect"
- "you will not change the past, because you did not see how you change it"
And in the second case, you will have to go through what you wanted to change again, knowing that there is no chance to fix it. Would you like this? Is it worth it?..
At least you will not cause it. Consolation...
 
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And to avoid this, any intervention in the past should be approached wisely.

If your time model assumes that changing the past can end on the whole scale from "everything went perfect" to "everything is catastrophically bad, everyone out of the universe!" then changing the past is permissible only if you are absolutely sure that the change and its consequences will be perfect. And before changing the past, you have to make another time travel (without interfering at all!) and carefully observe whether you really make a change and whether it will pass as planned (for the entire period up to your present).
So you will have two options:
- "the change will be perfect, because you saw that it was perfect"
- "you will not change the past, because you did not see how you change it"
And in the second case, you will have to go through what you wanted to change again, knowing that there is no chance to fix it. Would you like this? Is it worth it?..
Unless time travel works on a two-depths level. Aka something like "There's time, and there's meta-time. One is local to the current universe and can be traveled and changed. The other is multiversal and can't be."

At least, that's my personal explanation of time travel, because that way it's at least somewhat consistent while still allowing sensible time travel.
 
Unless time travel works on a two-depths level. Aka something like "There's time, and there's meta-time. One is local to the current universe and can be traveled and changed. The other is multiversal and can't be."

At least, that's my personal explanation of time travel, because that way it's at least somewhat consistent while still allowing sensible time travel.

The way DSR, Taylor Varga, and this story handle it is that there's only one timeline. There may be multiple branches for that timeline, but time travel only ever accesses one of them. If you go back into the past and change something you aren't creating a new branch, you are altering a branch. Which the multiverse really doesn't like. Yes, it's possible to do. Yes time travel is frighteningly easy to accomplish. But it's a spectacularly bad idea because there are too many variables. Things you don't know about, and can't possibly account for. Hell, even just the slightly different amount of CO2 in the air from you breathing could be the spark that causes a paradox. Or a blade of grass you stepped on. Or a mosquito biting you instead of someone else. While it's possible to get lucky and pull off exactly what you were intending without any consequences, this is bloody unlikely.

Now, TV does have a thing with the multiverse traveling omakes where The Family tends to connect to a given dimension at various points in it's history (purely by accident) due to various things such as the dimensions running at different speeds, thus no time travel actually being involved. And Ship of Fools appears to be doing the "we're using time travel only to ensure we return shortly after we left" from here on out because everyone realizes how dangerous time travel is.
 
And yet, in most cases it's a bad idea to bring someone back from the dead. And often it can only be done if they are recently dead anyway. For example in the DC Universe Darkest Night was possible because people kept coming back from the dead. in BTVS bringing Buffy back from the dead after she sacrificed herself to close a hell portal at the end of season 5 (I think) is what allowed The First loose. In Dresden's dimension bringing someone back from the dead is seriously bad magic. Even if they go to one of the D&D or Pathfinder worlds where bringing someone back from the dead is possible (if expensive) it can only be done if they are recently dead. As in only within a few weeks to months of their death. Unless you use a Wish or Reincarnate. But a wish isn't 100% reliable, and Reincarnate could bring the person back as anything. Yes, even a tuna fish.
 
And yet, in most cases it's a bad idea to bring someone back from the dead. And often it can only be done if they are recently dead anyway. For example in the DC Universe Darkest Night was possible because people kept coming back from the dead. in BTVS bringing Buffy back from the dead after she sacrificed herself to close a hell portal at the end of season 5 (I think) is what allowed The First loose. In Dresden's dimension bringing someone back from the dead is seriously bad magic. Even if they go to one of the D&D or Pathfinder worlds where bringing someone back from the dead is possible (if expensive) it can only be done if they are recently dead. As in only within a few weeks to months of their death. Unless you use a Wish or Reincarnate. But a wish isn't 100% reliable, and Reincarnate could bring the person back as anything. Yes, even a tuna fish.

D&D 3.5 world, Cleric and True Resurrection:(spell level 9th, meaning the caster must be level 17 to use.)

True Resurrection

Conjuration (Healing)

Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can't resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
Even true resurrection can't restore to life a creature who has died of old age.
Material Component

A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

Clerics can make Holy Water, and I think Taylor can make or buy 25k worth of diamonds. Note, no body needed, just the memory of the person.
 
It's also suppose to be a very rare spell to find a cleric able to cast. Lore wise, people who can cast 9th level spells are few and far between. Also, could the spell be used on Eberon, for example, to bring back someone who died in a completely different branch of reality? After all, the deity granting your chosen cleric's spells doesn't have any authority over the afterlife of Taylor's reality.

EDIT: Also, if you bring said cleric to Taylor's dimension, they may not retain access to their spells due to the god or goddess granting them not having access to that dimension.
 
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More importantly, has the Family ever found a way to get to a D&D realm, complete with access to their style of magic?

In D&D, Death is fairly easy to get out of, because otherwise characters would need to be replaced whenever the dice decide to hate them. In non-roleplay settings, Death is usually, barring very unusual circumstances, rather more permanent. Usually, a get out of Death card requires either special circumstances or for the person's death to be an illusion; either faked or otherwise misleading.

Doomsday didn't actually kill Superman, he just beat him into a coma. The first Green Goblin didn't die; he fell into a deathlike state while his healing factor repaired the damage. I could go on, but you should get the point.

Plus, Ninth Level Clerical Spells are essentially Divine Miracles. In theory a 17th level character can cast them. However, in practice, characters above 10th level tend to be rare on the ground unless the campaign starts everyone at a higher level or runs for a very long time. Such characters will be either the champions of their orders or the leaders of their church. Convincing such prominent people to grant such a miracle for a non-believer would be difficult, and there's no guarantee the God being invoked will risk drawing the Entities attention by exerting their power on one in their domain, or be willing to grant such a boon to a non-believer.

Frankly, unless one has personally earned a God's favor by questing in his name (and thus earned the levels to cast such a spell themselves) one would likely need to earn such a boon above and beyond the mere material cost of the spell.
 
Here is quite a nice list of time travel paradoxes...

I recall from a few years back the idea that if time travel was possible, and the past mutable, travelling through time would, after a few changes, result in a future where there was no means of time travel, because that's the most stable state to fall into... The DSR model is more a self-pruning reality which erases big chunks of itself if time travel causes issues, and, issues almost always occur... Interesting questions of whether there's cross-dimensional Time Police, who give the odd little nudge, sometimes at the cost of their own continued existences...

I MAY know the book you're talking about?

Here's a snip from a (rather hokey, mostly male-fantasy self-insert, I think) book whose central premise is, 3 friends in the 1970's stumble across the death of someone who has (sort of) time machine. They're able to "salvage" the time machine...and in engineering the damned thing, they become the founding fathers of a whole race of time travelling SuperPeople, somehow based in the distant past.

The book is "Conrad's Time Machine" by Leo Frankowski...theoretically the "first" book in the series, although it's the last one actually written.

QUOTE:
"I'm sorry, but it's the best answer you are going to get, sir. Please consider that these devices will someday be invented by the two of you gentlemen. If you learned about them before you had invented them, you would be messing with the laws of causality, a most unsafe procedure."

"So just what would happen to me if I did break these laws of yours?"

"I haven't the foggiest idea, sir. To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a well-documented case of anyone ever daring to break those laws."

"Then how can you possibly say that breaking them is dangerous? The best you can honestly say is that it is unknown."

"Sir, you haven't taken the time to consider the facts carefully. We have two entire cultures where millions of people have been using time machines for many thousands of years. Thus, there have been untold trillions of opportunities to violate causality. Consider that some of those people were probably dishonest, and that many more of them were doubtless curious. Yet there is not one single verifiable case of violated causality on record. Do you know why?"

"No, I don't."

"Neither do I. The best guess is that nature has some mechanism that corrects these violations. How it does this is unknown. My own thought is the data can also be stated thusly—"There is no one still in existence who has ever violated causality.' Given that, the short of it, sir, is that I prefer existence to its alternative, and therefore I have no intention of ever messing with the laws of causality."
 
I'm not going to spend a lot of time writing about therapy sessions, but I wanted to highlight that the character of Anya is not just, "socially awkward horny former demon," which is how she's portrayed in a lot of fanfic as well as in far too many of the actual canon episodes.

There's a fic where the Anya character ends up being QUITE a bit more intelligent than portrayed, and while the "horny former demon" part is at least partially true, the "socially awkward" part is a complete act to play on the other characters' insecurities and preconceptions.

It's pointed out that there's no way she would have been able to "do her job" of convincing women to "make their wishes" if she were really anywhere near that awkward.
 
"Here is the thing about the future. Every time you look at, it changes, because you looked at it, and that changes everything else." - Next (2007)

In most Peggy Sue stories, the attempts to preserve the time-line are only partially successful. Because you being there with knowledge of the future changes YOU. (Combined witht the fact that no-one has absolutely perfect memory of every moment of every day)
And if you ARE attempting to preserve the time-line, your return was essentially useless. My favorites are when they come back and say, "Fsck the time-line, it screwed us over".
 
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Doomsday didn't actually kill Superman, he just beat him into a coma. The first Green Goblin didn't die; he fell into a deathlike state while his healing factor repaired the damage. I could go on, but you should get the point.

Plus, Ninth Level Clerical Spells are essentially Divine Miracles. In theory a 17th level character can cast them. However, in practice, characters above 10th level tend to be rare on the ground unless the campaign starts everyone at a higher level or runs for a very long time. Such characters will be either the champions of their orders or the leaders of their church. Convincing such prominent people to grant such a miracle for a non-believer would be difficult, and there's no guarantee the God being invoked will risk drawing the Entities attention by exerting their power on one in their domain, or be willing to grant such a boon to a non-believer.

Frankly, unless one has personally earned a God's favor by questing in his name (and thus earned the levels to cast such a spell themselves) one would likely need to earn such a boon above and beyond the mere material cost of the spell.

First of all, while Doomsday didn't technically kill Superman, he did actually die. The novelization written by Roger Stern makes this very clear. But the events of Pa Kent having a heart attack and rescuing his son's soul from the afterlife was also I believe shown in the comics.

Also, as I pointed out and @Jacen1 just mentioned, level 17+ characters are going to be few and far between. These are the heroes of world shaking importance. The ones who accomplish deeds of legendary status, oft times not surviving long past doing so. The upper echelons of a given church in a D&D or Pathfinder type setting are likely level 12, level 14 at most. Your typical clergy encountered in major towns are likely to be levels 5-8 and retired adventurers. Most master wizards are probably levels 7-10 when they retire from adventuring and settle down. Maybe taking on an apprentice or two. Remember that player characters are not typical. They are the rare exceptions, not the rule.

But again, they likely wouldn't have any ability to bring Taylor's mom back to life. After all, she's not from their branch of reality. As such the gods and goddesses wouldn't have the ability to influence that Earth's afterlife. A high level mage casting Wish might be able to do it. But that's as likely to go horribly wrong as it is to not work or do what was intended.
 
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