Ship of Fools: A Taylor Varga Omake (Complete)

To quote the famous Doctor, "Wibbly Wobbly, Timey Wimey." All sorts of variables that even the Varga can't calculate are probably at play.

Among other things, the Varga stated that his polydimensional "mass" alone caused ripples in probability around himself. Having Taylor/Varga go back to change her own timeline-- over the short temporal distance of less than five years, and almost the exact same location physically-- would be the equivalent of having TWO planets suddenly appear in the solar system where there originally was one... it would throw everything in the solar system out of whack.

which is also why they had to be careful with Taylor/Skitter, seeing as she's connected to a Shard (which are supposed to be the size of transdimensional continents or bigger, canonically) so Taylor/Skitter probably has a pretty whopping huge 4-dimensional mass herself... having her "reappear" almost the exact moment she disappeared probably helped PREVENT time/space/probability waves...
 
I recall from a few years back the idea that if time travel was possible, and the past mutable, travelling through time would, after a few changes, result in a future where there was no means of time travel, because that's the most stable state to fall into.
This was postulated by Larry Niven in his essay The Theory And Practice Of Time Travel, published in All The Myriad Ways. (I'll look for a proper link to the book later, when I'm at a computer.)
 
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Ship of Fools edit comments

Love the story, looking forward to more. Kinda weird chapter was perfect until the last few scenes.

I fixed the errors. They especially tend to creep into the last for bits as those are the ones that haven't been revised as much.

I'm going to write another post addressing some of those last few bits.
 
Time Travel

As far as time travel goes, it is a hideously complicated set of messes piled into a small space. I am using the principles of the butterfly effect in its most literal sense. Taylor's mom died in a car accident in a medium-sized city in a world filled with thinkers that also has Scion and the Endbringers. The chance of something not spiraling out of control over a multi-year period is rather low. Just one thing out of place, and you suddenly have a Danny Hebert who is pushing hard on the system to figure out the inconsistency in his wife's death. I can easily see his mental shut down being changed into angry crusading, which completely changes Taylor's experiences. As someone else mentioned, I can see the Path to Victory shifting unexpectedly because of butterfly changes.

There were some really good points raised in the discussion. One thing I didn't see had to do with the morality of time travel. Is it moral to cause bad things to happen to undeserving people through the random changes caused by changing the past? Instead of buying the winning lottery ticket that lets him pay off his medical bills, a man is delayed by thirty seconds. The guy before him gets that ticket, and he can't handle the wealth and ends up in rehab.

Furthermore, if you can go to any point in a timeline, then is the timeline itself static? Varga in my fic is very much taking the approach of saying that only people outside of the timestream may be seriously screwed with by changes to it. In reality, though, if you can see the full timeline, and you change it at a point convenient to you, aren't you playing god with the lives downstream? In Ripley's universe, for example, they've completely changed the way colonization of other planets is going to happen. How many kids won't be born because of that? The effect on that is exponential going down the timestream, potentially affecting trillions of people.

There is even the question of whether or not our interpretation of "time travel" makes any sense at all in terms of how physics actually work. I've seen suggestions in serious think pieces and reviews of scientific theory that suggest the concept of linear time may be tied directly to how our brains work, rather than how the universe works. If that has any truth to it, then messing with time is likely to have drastic unintended consequences.

Amy and Ianthe

The last scene was something I debated back and forth as to whether it made sense. The conclusion that I came to is that "Ianthe" is really a teen-aged girl who until recently suffered a mix of crushing responsibility and an unhealthy degree of fear over her power. Her meeting Taylor and Varga derailed the train of plot that was going to see her in the Birdcage before the age of 20. Now, she is in a much healthier place than she was, so her lashing out involved trying to scare the fuck out of Peter and Jimmy when they come to her and inadvertently suggest that she break another of her old taboos. Amy is imaginative with a dark sense of humor, so it isn't hard for her to come up with a horrifying scenario for each of them. It breaks Ianthe's mask, to a degree, but we've already established that Jimmy is in the know after the visit to the New Gods, and Peter is, frankly, an extremely low risk for revealing other people's secrets. The other thing to keep in mind is, to quote Ziz, both Peter and Jimmy have seen shit that would turn you white. Neither of them is going to be scared off by the superhero equivalent of a threat display. Peter's whole tag line is, "with great power comes great responsibility," and Jimmy hangs around Mr. World-of-Cardboard. The combination seemed like a good one for starting to deal with the aftermath of Amy's issues.

Xander and Anya

What would the Nox see when they get a look at Anya aka Anyanka aka Aud? I'm thinking that their first reaction is going to be, "holy crap, this person is seriously broken." The way I see the Nox, they aren't big into punishment. Their shtick is basically rehabilitation so that an offender can make a positive contribution to offset their negative contribution. The way a Nox would deal with a Goa'uld would be centuries of therapy, at which point you would basically have a Tok'ra.

If you've watched the whole seven seasons of BtVS, the writers had a tendency to use Anya's bluntness and social awkwardness as comic relief. There are a few episodes where they give the actress more to work with, like The Body and Selfless. There, you start to see Anya as being desperately insecure, guilty for things she's done, and trying to cope with the concepts of mortality and morality. There are other episodes where she makes some very good points that people just blow off, like her calling out Willow on deliberately using cultural references that she knows Anya can't understand. There was a lot of disbelief about why Anya and Xander would stay with each other. I see that as two desperately insecure people clinging to each other.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time writing about therapy sessions, but I wanted to highlight that the character of Anya is not just, "socially awkward horny former demon," which is how she's portrayed in a lot of fanfic as well as in far too many of the actual canon episodes.
 
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Furthermore, if you can go to any point in a timeline, then is the timeline itself static? Varga in my fic is very much taking the approach of saying that only people outside of the timestream may be seriously screwed with by changes to it. In reality, though, if you can see the full timeline, and you change it at a point convenient to you, aren't you playing god with the lives downstream? In Ripley's universe, for example, they've completely changed the way colonization of other planets is going to happen. How many kids won't be born because of that? The effect on that is exponential going down the timestream, potentially affecting trillions of people.
How is that different from any decision taken to do or not do something? If a nuts terrorist decides to use a dirty bomb on the next G8 conference, the resulting timeline downstream will look a lot different than if the same terrorist has a heart attack instead of bombing.
And I think time is too complex to see it all, so, every change has the potential for unintended consequences. Like in the Voyager seasons where the Krenim guy in the timeship tried to resurrct his empire ...
 
How is that different from any decision taken to do or not do something? If a nuts terrorist decides to use a dirty bomb on the next G8 conference, the resulting timeline downstream will look a lot different than if the same terrorist has a heart attack instead of bombing.
And I think time is too complex to see it all, so, every change has the potential for unintended consequences. Like in the Voyager seasons where the Krenim guy in the timeship tried to resurrct his empire ...

Part of my point is that I don't know that it is any different. I could easily envision a situation where it is.

Just as an example: You're walking down the street. You have a precognitive flash of insight. If you walk down the left street, it will take you ten more minutes to get to work. If you walk down the right street, then a dog will notice you, try to cross the street, and be hit by a car. Now, you could argue that you have nothing to do with the dog getting hit. You're just walking, and you would normally take the shorter route. It's not like you're deliberately taking a different route in order to cause the accident. Nevertheless, you know it is going to happen. Do you have a moral obligation to avoid that? What if the dog is going to contract rabies tomorrow and bite somebody? What if the dog is going to save his owner's life tomorrow by waking him up in a fire? What if your being late one more time will get you fired, regardless of what happens to the dog?

If morality is dictated by the information you have available to you, then precognition of any kind drastically alters the equation. Absolute precognition would be utterly horrible, I would think, as you might feel morally obligated to find the "best" route through, allowing terrible things to happen in order to allow other, nicer things to happen elsewhere.

Some universes get away from this by having higher beings plot a destiny for people. This is obviously true in the Buffy-verse, and likely true in the Dresden-verse. This is an implicit recognition that human beings don't have the processing hardware to handle Destiny with a big "D". One common corollary in those universes is that either time has a self-fixit mechanism built in whereby butterfly effects tend to smooth out, or the powers that be directly intervene to put time, "back on track."

The Star Trek universe is interesting in that time travel is very much at the convenience of the writers. Doing a reboot? Hell, throw in some time travel and you don't have to worry about canon discontinuities. Only the die-hard nerds really care that your Klingons are different, right? Want to tell a really cool concept episode without making any changes to the status quo? Stable time loops are great for that. It's also useful if you want to bring Denise Crosby back to the show as a guest star because you decided to kill off her character like a red-shirt.

The existence of time travel as a practical possibility would suggest that things change either toward an extreme, or to a state where time travel isn't possible. Maybe we live in a world where time travel was possible, but now it isn't -- for some really vague definitions of "was" and "now."
 
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The thing to remember is that Taylor Varga uses the Desperately Seeking Ranma rules for time travel. Which means it's a really bad idea. Viewing the past? Okay, this has no problems. Changing the past? Oh yeah, this is a problem. A pretty major one in fact. I hope you enjoy non-existence, and didn't do anything to try enforcing universal stability. The last time someone did that multiple dimensions were erased from existence and a simi-sentient time machine continued to cause problems, likely leading to several other dimensions no longer existing.

If the crew had merely observed unnoticed there wouldn't have been any problems. But instead they got involved, which lead to Amy having to violate her code of ethics in a major way in order to prevent a catastrophe. Trying to save Taylor's mom is reckless. And the scenario Varga gave for what could happen was a best case scenario. After all, Taylor would still exist. More likely she would retroactively have never existed. Possibly her parents never existed either. Worst case, the entire dimension goes POOF.
Except oddly enough, going back in time SAVED Ripley's universe, because otherwise it would've changed the timeline to something it wasn't, Ellen would've been uninfected by an alien, Amy wouldn't have known how they functioned, and she wouldn't have been able to properly create a counteragent, and all life on Earth would've been wiped out. Going back completed a stable time loop, which actually saved it.

The same would happen if they went back and covertly saved Annette.
 
The issue here isn't saving Annette, it's the fact that they were given a time machine without the author actually thinking about it completely.

Time Machine + Lateral Thinking = Nothing can't be fixed.
 
There is even the question of whether or not our interpretation of "time travel" makes any sense at all in terms of how physics actually work. I've seen suggestions in serious think pieces and reviews of scientific theory that suggest the concept of linear time may be tied directly to how our brains work, rather than how the universe works. If that has any truth to it, then messing with time is likely to have drastic unintended consequences.

That's the same kind of people who seriously believes that sending off one end of a wormhole at near FTL speed to cause time dilation for that end alone is going to make timetravel possible through the wormhole.
One sideeffect would also be that it would be literally impossible for actions to have consequences. Which means that our existence would be impossible.
Excusing their failure to comprehend what the math models they play around with actually MEANS, with "our brains can't understand it", is just epic fail and shows exactly why math=/=physics. The map can never BE the territory.

There were some really good points raised in the discussion. One thing I didn't see had to do with the morality of time travel. Is it moral to cause bad things to happen to undeserving people through the random changes caused by changing the past?

Unless you had the ability to reliably predict what the side effects of what you did would be, then how ever could you be morally responsible?
Anyone with even the slightest hint of intelligence understand that you do not drive while drunk, because the risk of causing accidents and injuries is simply so high that any time you did so you would have to accept that it was LIKELY that you would cause problems somehow.
But simply "driving a car" somewhere? The vast majority of cartrips does not cause any impact however, and as such you cannot expect it to happen, if it happens anyway but you did not in any way cause it, then how can it be morally bad?

In regards to timetravel, as long as you don't do anything that could predictably cause harm, well, noone can do more than that regardless of timetravelling or not. ANY timetravel WOULD cause changes no matter what, some good, some bad, but the thing here is, this would be the ONLY reality for everyone except the timetraveller(s), and it's utterly impossible to take responsibility for everything. Otherwise you're arguing that the only moral thing to do would be to do that every day as well.

Furthermore, if you can go to any point in a timeline, then is the timeline itself static? Varga in my fic is very much taking the approach of saying that only people outside of the timestream may be seriously screwed with by changes to it. In reality, though, if you can see the full timeline, and you change it at a point convenient to you, aren't you playing god with the lives downstream?

If it's possible to timetravel, then the timeline by default cannot be static. Or it could not "accomodate" for or "accept" the existence of the timetravelling people where they should not be.

IF timetravel is possible, then if someone travels back in time and changes something, to the traveller the time in between has already happened, but to everyone else, it will never happen. If this erases the timetraveller from the future, and he goes back to where he came from, everything is different, noone knows who he is, because from their point of view, he has never existed, while the traveller has absolutely no clue about the new timeline. The timetraveller moves outside of time, this keeps them from being affected by timeline changes.

It gets fun if you start looking at how multiple timetravellers going in both directions from various points in time, and how they affect everyone else depending on whether they have a radical impact or not in the time they go to.
 
The issue here isn't saving Annette, it's the fact that they were given a time machine without the author actually thinking about it completely.

Time Machine + Lateral Thinking = Nothing can't be fixed.

There's an implied critique there. Writing any fanfic involving the Star Trek and Stargate universes as canon requires that you acknowledge that time travel works as needed by the plot. As I do not want to write a fic where the Family goes traipsing through time like the Gay Deceiver of Heinlein, magically rescuing anybody they want, I have created an admittedly arbitrary set of rules around what can and cannot happen.

Basically, time travel is BAD. Minor exceptions are made for stable time loops. What isn't addressed is what would actually happen if the group tried to do something that wildly changes the canon history. The answer is that the Presence, or Q, or an archangel, or the PTB's, or Eternity would show up and say, "BAD VARGA. No smug for you for the next three fanfic chapters!"

TLDR; This isn't a fic that fixes EVERY problem in the history of each canon universe or resurrects long-lost characters. If that's what you're looking for, then you may be disappointed.
 
Except oddly enough, going back in time SAVED Ripley's universe, because otherwise it would've changed the timeline to something it wasn't, Ellen would've been uninfected by an alien, Amy wouldn't have known how they functioned, and she wouldn't have been able to properly create a counteragent, and all life on Earth would've been wiped out. Going back completed a stable time loop, which actually saved it.

The same would happen if they went back and covertly saved Annette.

There have always been inconsistencies in the Alien timeline. For example, how did Riply end up with the alien queen growing inside her when she was clean upon entering the cryo chamber and the cryo chamber was undamaged? What caused the cryo pod to be ejected when the ship they were in had no remaining alien infestation or damage? When exactly did WY get a genetic sample of Riply while she's host to a growing Alien Queen? And other things.
 
First thing that comes to mind: how do they go back in time - as TaylorVarga - without alerting the Endbringers? Or giving all thinkers a headache?

This was explained by the mainline story, sorta. The Endbringers don't panic until Varga(Taylor) gets into direct contact with a shard's powers. In the mainline this would be when Tattletale gets her first glimpse during the first Uber/Leet incident. Then only after shard-net finds out that something is totally weird that the EBs panic. In this case they are finding out during the one sentence where TT passes out from a good look at Saurial.
 
Basically, time travel is BAD. Minor exceptions are made for stable time loops. What isn't addressed is what would actually happen if the group tried to do something that wildly changes the canon history. The answer is that the Presence, or Q, or an archangel, or the PTB's, or Eternity would show up and say, "BAD VARGA. No smug for you for the next three fanfic chapters!"
The problem is that Varga is proba ly powerful/wierd enough to say, call up Q and ask, "Hey, Q! IMMA DO A THING! WILL BAD THINGS HAPPEN IF I DO A THING?" At which point, asking how to make a stable timeloop to do anything becomes far easier.

The fact that time travel exists at all implies that either ROB is actually BROB and is doing this to get his daytime television drama, or it is in fact possible to do it safely without negative repercussions because otherwise ROB wouldnt have allowed it to work in the first place.
 
The problem is that Varga is proba ly powerful/wierd enough to say, call up Q and ask, "Hey, Q! IMMA DO A THING! WILL BAD THINGS HAPPEN IF I DO A THING?" At which point, asking how to make a stable timeloop to do anything becomes far easier.

The fact that time travel exists at all implies that either ROB is actually BROB and is doing this to get his daytime television drama, or it is in fact possible to do it safely without negative repercussions because otherwise ROB wouldnt have allowed it to work in the first place.

You're ignoring the most important part of my post (from my perspective):

As I do not want to write a fic where the Family goes traipsing through time like the Gay Deceiver of Heinlein, magically rescuing anybody they want, I have created an admittedly arbitrary set of rules around what can and cannot happen.
 
You might want to ask "What happened to all the other Varga, given they're nearly indestructible?".

Well, 'Time Travel Accidents', and, 'Stomped by Greater Powers for Breaking The Rules' would be one credible answer...

Viz the 'Alien' franchise and consistency, I don't tend to regard 'plot consistency' as something most film makers have tried seriously hard at (even to the level of getting a retired English teacher to thoroughly check their script, semantically). Novel writers tend to be held to a higher standard by their editors - well, most writers, and competent editors.
 
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The fact that time travel exists at all implies that either ROB is actually BROB and is doing this to get his daytime television drama, or it is in fact possible to do it safely without negative repercussions because otherwise ROB wouldnt have allowed it to work in the first place.

In Star Trek there's beings and organizations with the sole job of ensuring time travel doesn't cause any changes. But in general, when time travel is possible it's horrifically easy. And it's always a seriously bad idea. The Ship of Fools crew are learning this, and have started limiting their time travel shinanigans to "showing up/returning just after leaving". And they still almost screwed that up with going to Taylor's (Skitter) world.
 
TT spots Taylor / Varga before the Uber / Leet show in the Food Court of the mall.
That was just a glance that locked on someone projecting "everything is normal" after doing people watching and seeing two cheaters, an embezzler, and a future Merchant. Literally. Lisa locked onto Taylor because she projected too much 'normal' to be a normal person according to her.
 
That was just a glance that locked on someone projecting "everything is normal" after doing people watching and seeing two cheaters, an embezzler, and a future Merchant. Literally. Lisa locked onto Taylor because she projected too much 'normal' to be a normal person according to her.
Which gave her shard a look at Taylor and upload the news on shard-net. And gave Lisa a migraine and a feeling of "DANGER!!!11eleven"
 
You're ignoring the most important part of my post (from my perspective): "As I do not want to write a fic where the Family goes traipsing through time like the Gay Deceiver of Heinlein, magically rescuing anybody they want, I have created an admittedly arbitrary set of rules around what can and cannot happen."
I have no real problem with that. I actually think the best way to handle it would be to have been stricter with keeping to no time travel rule. In the case with Ripley they had reason to actually do it, due to the inconsistencies between number of launched pods etc. But I can't really see why they would risk it for arriving what seems to be at the very most 20 seconds earlier during the Leviathan fight (I believe it to be much closer to 5 seconds or so). The Leviathan fight is a big issue, but even then - 20 seconds is unlikely to cause many deaths that wouldn't have happened either way, and anything less than a death can likely be fixed by Ianthe and one-shots. Using time-travel to visit Dr Strange a few days earlier than you could otherwise is kind of a grey area to me, as is the changes to Earth back in Ripley's universe.

As noted by others though, it should still have been possible to arrive earlier in the Leviathan fight without being noticed, assuming that no local shard observed them, and that they had the Assassin's cloak up. Though you could perhaps argue that the Simurgh is actively helping out with precognition during the attack and notices when it starts to have issues. I still like the story, but bringing in time-travel as an option for cases where it's not really clear that it will even improve anything means that you're pretty much doomed to end up in an argument about where to draw the line. I also think Varga and Taylor should have discussed it more if Varga was sceptical, since they're not really rushed for time, since the time in their universe isn't connected to the time in this universe.

Either way - I really enjoy this story and will keep following it. I just think that part would be have better left avoided. Then again, I don't have as big insight into the story as you have, and by this point it's probably too late to undo it either way.
 
I agree using time travel to fix everything sounds boring, don't like how you "fix" for Scion works out -> time travel, earth quake kills a bunch of people -> time travel, soon it would be car accident kills someone -> time travel. Once you start going down the road of time travel to "fix" things it becomes boring or argument about "why don't you just time travel back to fix everything".

A much more "fun" way to bring back Taylor's mom is to use the multi-verse. Maybe an Annette that never met Danny and had Taylor similar to canon. Or one where Danny died instead of Annette. Or even one where Annete lost both Danny and Taylor and has triggered and become a hero. There are many more fun ways to play around with the multiverse than there are with time travel in my opinion.
 
Time Machine + Lateral Thinking = Nothing can't be fixed.
And what happens when the side that lost gets their hands on a time machine also?

When you use time travel to fix things you open yourself for it to be used against you at a later time.

The simplest tech would be time viewing and even that can be abused by watching others create industrial secrets or reading classified data before it becomes classified.
 
Would you want a substitute mother, someone who looks and sounds like her, but isn't quite right?
I think what Student of Zelretch was proposing was 1)Rescue Universe n Annette and clone her. 2)Go back to home universe at time of Annette's crash. 3)Replace Annette with clone-Annette 0.1 seconds before car crash. 4)Return to present time approx. 10 minutes after setting out to do step 1. 5)Profit.

In this case, nobody's getting a copy of Annette (except the coroner). But the boss said we won't be doing that, so there you go.

EDIT: I miss my computer.
 
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And what happens when the side that lost gets their hands on a time machine also?

When you use time travel to fix things you open yourself for it to be used against you at a later time.

At which point you have a Time War.

You know, like the one in Doctor Who? The one where the omnicidal salt and pepper shakers got tired of The Doctor always showing up to thwart them, figured out time travel, and went to war with The Doctor's species across all of time and space?
 
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