ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I wonder what their first contact with a more organized tribe will be. A northern Nahuatl tribe, a Pueblo group, or a Tlingit/related culture seem most likely.
Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
- Timeline
I wonder what their first contact with a more organized tribe will be. A northern Nahuatl tribe, a Pueblo group, or a Tlingit/related culture seem most likely.
- Location
- Pacific NW
Or even Salish traders.
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah, you're right, I meant Pacific Northwester, not Tlingit. I thought Tlingit was more inclusive than it was. Apparently Haida slaving and raiding expeditions reached Mexico, so it's clear they have the capabilities to make it.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Oh yeah. I find the great religious debates that will follow morbidly humorous. I imagine the image of the "remnants of Eden" dying off to plagues is going to send the more religious in Constantinople into a frenzy. And some of the standard 'God's saying we're the better people! Woo-hoo!'
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Essentially they need to make declarations as to which native group owns what lands, go in and conquer those lands, impose measures that force the native groups there to obey Roman law, then create some sort of impetus that gets the natives to 'buy in' to things like Roman economics and modes of production, and Christianity.
Probably the best way to do this is to go in, trade until you understand their situation, support someone who will go along with your policies for ruler of the tribe, declare that said chunk of land ruled by X is part of the empire because they swore oaths to that effect, ?maybe impose taxes according to plans based on Roman adjacent agriculture and mining, while providing aid and teaching to transition to that?, and standby with the military when someone objects or raids.
Edit: Possibly with marrying a Roman being seen as a symbol of status or support and a way to preserve your children from plague.
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Speaker4thesilen
Superpower: Common Sense
- Location
- Noneya Business
I can see where Sky is coming from here. At the beginning, there is going to be no population pressure forcing the Byzantines to expand, which limits that as a source of conflict with the natives. By the time, a couple of generations down the line where population pressure is starting to become an issue, the natives in the local area will have already partially assimilated, especially if the Byzantines help them pick up what's left after the plagues go through.
With what lots of people are going to see as a miracle, I think odds of a religious revival are pretty solid. If that occurs, then there's likely to be a lot of willingness to help the natives in the short term even aside from the fact that the Romans need them.
If they can hold off on the Roman tendency to treat 'barbarians' like shit just because long enough for the natives to become familiar to them, they might be able to establish and maintain decent relations with them.
With what lots of people are going to see as a miracle, I think odds of a religious revival are pretty solid. If that occurs, then there's likely to be a lot of willingness to help the natives in the short term even aside from the fact that the Romans need them.
If they can hold off on the Roman tendency to treat 'barbarians' like shit just because long enough for the natives to become familiar to them, they might be able to establish and maintain decent relations with them.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Counterpoint: 90%+ wipeouts happened to both the Mississipians and the Amazonians with minimal outside contact.
I disagree. The Romans could all voluntarily stay within the city walls (sufficient farmlamd present), but they'll become wealthier if they start taking land immediately- esp. for exponentially expanding livestock herds.
Further, the locals are all at least seminomadic. They're much more apt to hoof it rather than fight, compared to settled people. They're very thin on the ground compared to most Native Americans living on superbly fertile land. The Hopi would consider them primitives, as would the Haida, and maybe even the Navajo and Apache.
They're going to fare a lot better than if it was the Spaniards or English getting off a boat, but I can't forsee an autonomous 'Central Californian' identity lasting more than a century. They're going to show up less than the native Cuban signal in Marco Rubio's genetic test (ie. blended in to complete disappearance).
Other native groups, much further away and more advanced or warlike, or living in marginal land, have a much better shot at staying distinct longer.
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- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Adding another sight which might or might not be mentioned:
Passenger pigeons never migrated over the Rockies, but were apparently spectacular(as in, numerous enough to blacken the sky at times, filling the air for days, and dropping poo everywhere) over the plains and east before they were rendered extinct.
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It bears repeating just how much of an obstacle the Rockies are. Anyone who's not familiar with the US/Canadian west coast feel free to go to Google Maps, turn off satellite view, and turn on Terrain view.
Do not adjust you're set, that is indeed 800 miles of mountain ranges and valleys the Romans would need to cross to break out into the plains. It's far, far easier for the Romans to use ships to expand north and south.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
Yeah the Rockies (especially the Sierra Nevadas which surround the Californian central valley) aren't going to be crossed any time soon leaving just the central valley and strategic spots on the coast to settle. If they go further north to Oregon and Washington there's some good land to settle as well but that's it for arable land without taking a long trek over or an even longer trek around the Rockies. Thankfully the central valley is all they'll need for farming for a LONG time as that's grade A farmland right there.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Though the 1500 miles of the far older Appalachian mountains posed a even bigger major barrier to westward expansion as I recall because of its 1,200 miles long ridge and valley system with that rendered it extremely difficult to cross barring a few mid ridge gaps except at the northern and southern extreme ends at least in the times before motorized travel and indeed even in later periods posed those mountains a serious problem for railroad and later highway construction.
Chapter 3
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Chapter 3
Constantinople The Great
Constantinople The Great
Oh, grand Constantinople! Even in her fading days, few cities could hold to her glory. Her gilded halls and mighty palaces. The magnificent Theodosian Walls, protecting all inside from any adversary. Beautiful Hagia Sophia, rising above all else, resplendent in the glory of God. No matter the ruined buildings, no matter the widespread farmland, Constantinople was still a jewel of the Lord. A city beyond peer. Even more so, inside such a godless wilderness as Elysium Bay1. A shining beacon for all who approached. Was it any wonder that the natives who first visited our grand City were in awe? They lived in plant huts and had no context at all for how glorious it truly was...
--- Ecumenical Patriarch Heraklios, 1675
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a member of the Ramaytush tribe at the moment of contact. You have lived a harmonious life, a simple existence among your close family. On the rare occasions you saw someone outside your immediate group, it would be members of other Ohlone tribes. The largest building you were likely to have seen, would have been the central hut in a village. Stone masonry is almost unknown, as is metal working. This is the life you had lived, the life your father and his father had lived. It was simple, yes, yet it was what you knew.
Until you met strange light-skinned men, in even stranger clothing. Men who brought you to a massive vessel, that could comfortably fit several of the canoes you were familiar with. A vessel that sailed up the bay, until out of the fog, you saw it. Massive stone walls. Buildings the likes of which you had never even imagined as possible. So many people that you couldn't even begin to pick out individuals. Men wearing metal as clothing and carrying weapons that were unimaginable. A tall man, dressed in shimmering material you had never seen before and wearing glowing metal upon his brow.
That, is what it was like for the men that Demir the Turk and Moretti the Venetian had brought to Constantinople.
As a people, the Ohlone- in this specific case, the Ramaytush -were simple and primitive. Compared to the great cities of Mēxihco or the Tawantinsuyu, they barely qualified as a 'civilized' people. Men who had lived in villages that were mobile and never stayed in one spot? Who rarely saw more than a hundred people in any one location? They had no frame of reference or ability to comprehend Constantinople. Even ruined as the City was at the time of the Relocation, it utterly dwarfed anything in the region. Anything on the west coast of what Europeans would dub 'America', in fact. The more civilized tribes up the coast or further inland did not even come close.
When the first group of Ramaytush were brought to the City, they were greeted by Giovanni Giustiniani, the famous Genoese soldier. He had been waiting for the return of the scouting parties, and was quite curious of what the Venetians had brought back. The language barrier remained insurmountable, of course. A few hours attempting to communicate in languages that had no common ground, did not make for an easy task.
Even if it were impossible to understand what was being said, it was quite easy to see the awestruck looks upon the faces of the dark-skinned men.
Giustiniani, more curious than wary, was quite willing to show these men the City. A few primitive barbarians with not a scrap of steel between them? Dressed in ill-fitting clothes the Venetians had given them to make them presentable? These were no Turkish warriors. They were too busy chattering in their strange language, pointing at the buildings and placing hands on the stonework, to be a threat. It was almost like he was herding children, as his memoirs would record this day. Curious children who had never seen something such as this before.
The Ramaytush would record much the same, in their vocal traditions. These men were especially impressed by the Theodosian Walls and the Hagia Sophia. As the largest and most imposing stone works in the City, it is hardly surprising. The Sophia, in particular, would enrapture many a native who came to the City in the early days of contact. The domes, reminiscent of the homes they were familiar with, greatly impressed the visitors. To build something so large, out of rock and stone? It boggled the mind. It was familiar in design, yet so alien in scale.
This curiosity and awe spread both ways, of course.
The citizens of Constantinople, most of whom had no idea they were no longer in Europe, had no idea who was in their streets. Curious children and worried women watched as the long procession of soldiers escorted these strange men with their dark skin. The words they spoke to each other were strange and frightening. More than a few panicked, and thought they were Turks. This, thankfully, was limited to already scared citizens who had never seen nor heard an actual Turk.
It was a testament to the loyalty that Giustiniani commanded in his men that none of them panicked. They had no idea how to react to the men they were escorting, but they did not comment on it. Not where their beloved Commander could hear it. Giustiniani, in his own way, allowed them to talk. His curiosity about the strange men tended towards outweighing anything else.
As well it should, considering he was bringing the aforementioned men to see the Emperor himself. An honor that few indeed, back in Europe, would have been given. It would have been unheard of for random men to be taken off the street and introduced to the Emperor. Even one such as Constantine, who spent so much time among his flock during the Siege. If it were not for the situation the City was in, these men would not have been taken down streets reserved for the military. Past intact and well-built buildings, instead of the farmland that- in its own way -would have impressed the natives.
Constantinople, past her prime or not, was not a city that just anyone could wander through. Not in the ways the Ramaytush were, in their journey to the Palace of Blachernae 2. Sitting upon a hill, waiting for visitors that would never have seen it, in another lifetime.
--- Ecumenical Patriarch Heraklios, 1675
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a member of the Ramaytush tribe at the moment of contact. You have lived a harmonious life, a simple existence among your close family. On the rare occasions you saw someone outside your immediate group, it would be members of other Ohlone tribes. The largest building you were likely to have seen, would have been the central hut in a village. Stone masonry is almost unknown, as is metal working. This is the life you had lived, the life your father and his father had lived. It was simple, yes, yet it was what you knew.
Until you met strange light-skinned men, in even stranger clothing. Men who brought you to a massive vessel, that could comfortably fit several of the canoes you were familiar with. A vessel that sailed up the bay, until out of the fog, you saw it. Massive stone walls. Buildings the likes of which you had never even imagined as possible. So many people that you couldn't even begin to pick out individuals. Men wearing metal as clothing and carrying weapons that were unimaginable. A tall man, dressed in shimmering material you had never seen before and wearing glowing metal upon his brow.
That, is what it was like for the men that Demir the Turk and Moretti the Venetian had brought to Constantinople.
As a people, the Ohlone- in this specific case, the Ramaytush -were simple and primitive. Compared to the great cities of Mēxihco or the Tawantinsuyu, they barely qualified as a 'civilized' people. Men who had lived in villages that were mobile and never stayed in one spot? Who rarely saw more than a hundred people in any one location? They had no frame of reference or ability to comprehend Constantinople. Even ruined as the City was at the time of the Relocation, it utterly dwarfed anything in the region. Anything on the west coast of what Europeans would dub 'America', in fact. The more civilized tribes up the coast or further inland did not even come close.
When the first group of Ramaytush were brought to the City, they were greeted by Giovanni Giustiniani, the famous Genoese soldier. He had been waiting for the return of the scouting parties, and was quite curious of what the Venetians had brought back. The language barrier remained insurmountable, of course. A few hours attempting to communicate in languages that had no common ground, did not make for an easy task.
Even if it were impossible to understand what was being said, it was quite easy to see the awestruck looks upon the faces of the dark-skinned men.
Giustiniani, more curious than wary, was quite willing to show these men the City. A few primitive barbarians with not a scrap of steel between them? Dressed in ill-fitting clothes the Venetians had given them to make them presentable? These were no Turkish warriors. They were too busy chattering in their strange language, pointing at the buildings and placing hands on the stonework, to be a threat. It was almost like he was herding children, as his memoirs would record this day. Curious children who had never seen something such as this before.
The Ramaytush would record much the same, in their vocal traditions. These men were especially impressed by the Theodosian Walls and the Hagia Sophia. As the largest and most imposing stone works in the City, it is hardly surprising. The Sophia, in particular, would enrapture many a native who came to the City in the early days of contact. The domes, reminiscent of the homes they were familiar with, greatly impressed the visitors. To build something so large, out of rock and stone? It boggled the mind. It was familiar in design, yet so alien in scale.
This curiosity and awe spread both ways, of course.
The citizens of Constantinople, most of whom had no idea they were no longer in Europe, had no idea who was in their streets. Curious children and worried women watched as the long procession of soldiers escorted these strange men with their dark skin. The words they spoke to each other were strange and frightening. More than a few panicked, and thought they were Turks. This, thankfully, was limited to already scared citizens who had never seen nor heard an actual Turk.
It was a testament to the loyalty that Giustiniani commanded in his men that none of them panicked. They had no idea how to react to the men they were escorting, but they did not comment on it. Not where their beloved Commander could hear it. Giustiniani, in his own way, allowed them to talk. His curiosity about the strange men tended towards outweighing anything else.
As well it should, considering he was bringing the aforementioned men to see the Emperor himself. An honor that few indeed, back in Europe, would have been given. It would have been unheard of for random men to be taken off the street and introduced to the Emperor. Even one such as Constantine, who spent so much time among his flock during the Siege. If it were not for the situation the City was in, these men would not have been taken down streets reserved for the military. Past intact and well-built buildings, instead of the farmland that- in its own way -would have impressed the natives.
Constantinople, past her prime or not, was not a city that just anyone could wander through. Not in the ways the Ramaytush were, in their journey to the Palace of Blachernae 2. Sitting upon a hill, waiting for visitors that would never have seen it, in another lifetime.
1. 'Elysium Bay' would be the later name given to the Bay. Most non-Roman sources simply refer to it as 'Constantinople Bay'.
2. The Palace of Blachernae was the residence of the Roman Emperors following the short-lived Latin Empire. The original Palace would later be expanded upon, when wealth from the nearby mountains filled the coffers of the City and Empire. Little remains of the Palace that the Ramaytush visited.
Apologies on the delay. Work is...yeah.
At any rate, the first few chapters will be a lot of focus on the initial relocation and reactions thereof. Once we get past this bit, it'll jump forward a bit and continue doing so in a lot of chapters. It will be major events (like the initial ISOT) that justify multiple chapters for the specific event covered. It'll also probably get longer in later chapters, once I'm past the initial hurdles.
Also, yes, 'Elysium Bay' is a reference to Third Odyssey. Though I note that mod doesn't remotely inspire this.
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- Location
- Ohio
with how long term this is, doesn't that go both ways?
no one expected the introduction of horses would change Native American society so much.
Romanizing natives might have consequences that none of us would expect.
- Location
- Pacific NW
Random thought but the butterflies of this timeline could have interesting inspirations on Tolkien's work in a way. Hell, the Siege of Gondolin may end up with a very different ending, as Gondolin the Great was whisked away by 'Act of Eru' depriving Morgoth of his victory. Or Minas Tirith ends up on a bay rather than by a river.
Wonder if the great cities end up going to war with constantinople
- Location
- Classified
Why would they call it Constantinople Bay, when Elysium Bay is shorter?
- Location
- USS Enterprise CV-6
Yeah Tolkien is almost certainly never going to exist.
- Location
- Here
They're a bit far away to war with Constantinople directly. What will be interesting is to see how warfare evolves with the Byzantines around, it might make the conquistadors' lives much more difficult. Actually, that does remind me, didn't the Byzantines have a tradition of horse archers? Because if so their relations with the Plains Indians is going to be magnificent.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
It's more descriptive.
- Location
- United States of America
I wonder what the people of these cities will think of the city of Constantine?
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
if/when they learn of them some thing along the line of rival or trade parner/ally
ether/or is likely
ether/or is likely
- Location
- Mexico
One of the largest and more populated at the time baby
(If I remember my history correctly I kind of tend to mix up time xs)
Silvrose
Connoisseur of Cuteness
- Location
- A Flyover State
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
yep, Teotihuacan in the first century was sixth largest, and Mexica Peoples continued the proud tradition of building massive cities from there.One of the largest and more populated at the time baby
(If I remember my history correctly I kind of tend to mix up time xs)
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Assuming they get that far out.