Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

Been lurking for quite a while but this is the story / timeline that got me to register to reply to. That said, I was initially under the impression that Constantinople was roughly where Oakland is today. Put it roughly in the middle of the Bay but not on the SF Peninsula which still grants it a central location and easy access to the Pacific. Still great regardless due to the Bay Area's general climate.

Also, MagisterAurelius speaks of silver but are we expecting to see the Byzantine striking it rich in Californian gold? Eager to see if that richness carries on into the future (gold plating everything) and robs any future gold rush from the Europeans that might have taken place. Same with with the Aztec. Are they going to trade or exploit them to gain massive amounts of wealth and how will that affect the Spanish?

Can't wait for the next portion.
 
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Also, MagisterAurelius speaks of silver but are we expecting to see the Byzantine striking it rich in Californian gold? Eager to see if that richness carries on into the future (gold plating everything) and robs any future gold rush from the Europeans that might have taken place. Same with with the Aztec. Are they going to trade or exploit them to gain massive amounts of wealth and how will that affect the Spanish?
Oh no, the worry is that they'll find so much gold it'll become near worthless (smallish population compared to the USA's gold rush, and even less people to trade it with) so they're going to have to find something else to value. Thus the silver.
 
Oh no, the worry is that they'll find so much gold it'll become near worthless (smallish population compared to the USA's gold rush, and even less people to trade it with) so they're going to have to find something else to value. Thus the silver.
And then they find even more silver. Seriously, the Comstock lode is enormous.

I just hope they can avoid OTL's destructive hydraulic mining.
 
Edit: another question is where to get lumber. Was the central valley wooded at this point or do they have to go to North Cali to get a good source of ship building wood? As you can probably tell I'm a bit of a stickler for the logistical portion of ISOTs.

Probably not the central valley, but the entire coastline from Monterey to Portland will have tons of old growth redwood, which can reach 30 ft in diameter and 250 ft in height. it will make a fantastic soft wood building material. oak will also be plentiful once they get a few miles inland.
 
Probably not the central valley, but the entire coastline from Monterey to Portland will have tons of old growth redwood, which can reach 30 ft in diameter and 250 ft in height. it will make a fantastic soft wood building material. oak will also be plentiful once they get a few miles inland.
And by "a few miles inland" you mean "the mountains on the Peninsula right south". I'd say they'd find oak before redwood, but there's some nice old-growth redwood in the Santa Cruz mountains, too.
 
I have visions of hoplites with silver and turquoise necklaces now. Thanks.

Comanche Stradiots? There is the fun fact that Comanche defensive armaments were very resistant to most forms of small arms present in North America up until the 1860s, meaning that the Romans can both take advantage of the tech that allowed the Spaniards to dominate Mesoamerica and keep their infantry out of the way of European gunpowder infantry.

Given the opportunity, the historical record shows that Amerindians were deadly, shrewd combatants with all types of weapons. With the sorts of organization and tech Constantinople will be able to provide, I fully expect the setbacks of European colonialism in North America will spiral out into a very different method for dealing with Africa and South/SE Asia.
 
We know that Constantinople was chosen for being a mostly self-sufficient city, but what products from outside their walls they lost and will have to find a way of replicating or substituing from scratch?
 
Chapter 1
Chapter 1:
The Relocation

Was it an act of God that brought us to this new land? It seems to be the only option. We were removed from a siege that would have killed us all. The City moved to a new, strange home. The scouts have found nothing they recognize. Is this a Garden of Eden for our people? Has God given the Empire a fresh start, safe from our enemies? Or merely a reprieve, until the Turk returns? I do not know. The only truth that I have, is that the City is free. And I will die, before I see it fall.

--- Constantine XI Palaiologos, 1453



In the immediate aftermath of the relocation, Constantinople was a city cast adrift. Taken from the Turk, and given a new land to explore. Such an act of God was a reaffirmation of the sanctity of the City. The holiness of the Orthodox Church. Of the personage of the Emperor himself. Constantine, a man who was neither beloved nor hated, became the holiest of holy Emperors. Even his namesake paled to the man who had been given a reprieve by God himself. Normally Byzantine politics were put aside, in the face of this fact. Not even the most ambitious of nobles would dare act against a man who had such divine patronage.

It did little to change the immediate problems the City faced, however.

On a personal level, the Emperor lacked children or a wife. Children of his brother, his nephews, were in the City. Had it fallen, perhaps, they may have been spared as a political move by the Turk.1 ​As it was, they would likely succeed the Emperor, were he unable to find a wife and produce an heir of his own. A very real fear, even for a man blessed as Constantine. He was not young, nearing his fiftieth year. The wife he had been promised by the Georgians would never arrive. There was likely no shortage of women in the City who would jump at the chance to be the wife of both an Emperor and a man who had God's very real favor. However, the nobles would raise an eyebrow if he married so low.

Beyond the succession, the Emperor was also required to find a way to keep the Italians and Turks happy. The Romans, united in faith and loyalty to the throne in the form of Constantine, were no problem. Even the derision at the 'Greeks' was mostly gone now, from the others in the City. However, the Italians and Turks had their own issues. Genoese or Venetian, the Italians had come with the intention of being paid and returning home after the Siege. Some, such as the supremely talented Giustiniani, may have stayed even then. As for the small group of Turks, well, they were mercenaries through and through. The problem, therein, was the act of God. A blessing it may have been for the Romans, it was a curse for the Italians and Turks. These men had no home now. They had nothing but the City and the people they had ostensibly been paid to protect.

It is little surprise that the first major challenge for Constantine would simply be keeping these men happy.

For the Italians, it was relatively simple. The Church fell over themselves to donate what gold they could afford, and Constantine promised that gold and land to the Italians. Giustiniani, acting as leader for both Genoese and Venetian, graciously accepted. After that, it was easy to convince the sailors to survey the new land. Men looking for a home to settle down in, should they choose to leave the city, were not hard to convince.

The Turks, few in number, settled for land and wives. Constantine never trusted them, and the feeling was generally mutual. In later years, the Turkish minority would always have that aura of distrust. There would never be many of them. And they tended to keep to themselves, after a ruined church was converted to a Mosque for their community. Roman and Turk would never quite forget their historical animosity, even if these men would have died in defense of the City. Even if Strategos Binici would become one of the greatest innovators the Empire had ever seen, in later years.2​

Beyond these issues, the second major challenge for Constantinople was simple. With the relocation, and subsequent lack of trade, resources were scarce. It has already been established that gold was in short supply. In addition to this, there was a distinct lack of silver and other precious metals. Iron was plentiful, if only in weapons taken from the Turks who breached the walls or from the ruined portions of the city. The Great Chain that had sealed off the Golden Horn, now useless in every manner, was quickly melted down and used to create more useful objects. All of these actions, however, could only be temporary. As the City now had a chance to recover, everyone expected a population boom. Constantinople had room to grow, but no resources to do so.

The only resource in good supply were horses, and the farms inside the city walls. Decades after the Black Death and decades of stagnation had depopulated the grand City. What once was populated by hundreds of thousands, had become a bare fifty thousand. Even with refugees from outside the walls bringing the total above sixty, temporarily, the City of Constantine was a shadow of what it once was. Many buildings had fallen, and been reclaimed as viable farm land. Behind the Theodosian Walls, was what amounted to many villages connected by farmland. Not a contiguous city. These farms had once been a sign of decay. Now, they were the very lifeblood of the city. It would not starve, even if it was starved of other resources.

The expeditions by the Italians were intended to solve this problem. Wood was simple, as the land around the Bay was heavily forested in some areas. Iron and precious metals would be more problematic for many, many years.

However, these expeditions would serve a useful purpose beyond finding resources. A detachment of militia and Genoese soldiers, marching inland, would come across the first sign of human civilization...

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1. While it is understandably difficult to confirm, two converted Greeks of some import in the Ottoman Empire were likely members of the Palaiologos dynasty. Mesih Pasha and Hass Pasha are implied by contemporary histories to have been nephews of Constantine. If the Emperor were unable to produce an heir- something likely if the City had not fallen -then one of these brothers would likely have succeeded him. Assuming one of the Morean despots did not do so themselves, of course. In the ISOT, these siblings- with proper Greek names -are in the City. If Constantine cannot produce an heir at his advanced age, one of them would succeed him as Emperor.

2. For the future of the timeline. Suffice to say, I have planstm​ for each of the minorities in the Empire, not just for the Greco-Roman majority.

(I am planning on doing the little narrative bits at the start of each chapter. Most will be following the format of this one, however, I will also be doing proper narrative bits for important events. Such as, for example, the very next one. Or the fun of Romans meeting Grizzlies or seeing the Rockies or seeing the plains and their herds of Bison and...well, you get the point)
 
I wonder if when Spanish explorers and conquistadors reach the mainland of the America's they will be asked if they are from Constantinople? That would be a major shock for them.
 
Great to see the update and looking forward to more. Especially if there is anymore of Emperor's divine prestige following his bloodline, should he find a wife and produce children after this.

Now that it appears that they will be making first contact with the Native Americans, I wonder how their relationship will develop as the Byzantines seem to be in a fairly desperate or vulnerable situation. That they would request help and assistance from them rather than just roll on over the Natives.

Just as fellow posters noted, maybe a closer relationship with the Native Americans and bringing them into the fold, incorporating them more than our own timeline. If old world diseases don't kill 90% of them of course.
 
Hmm... so, short-term ethnic makeup of the Empire is looking likely to be a heavily Greek core around OTL San Francisco Bay, with a Turkish ghetto; a string of Italian communities up and down the coastal mountain valleys; and a hodgepodge but heavily native Central Valley.
 
If old world diseases don't kill 90% of them of course.

That is going to still happen as all the great killer plagues were around by the time of ISOT. What's different is that the native civilizations will be able to have their full cycle of collapse and recovery instead of being dog piled by the Europeans in the middle of the collapse.

Hmm... so, short-term ethnic makeup of the Empire is looking likely to be a heavily Greek core around OTL San Francisco Bay, with a Turkish ghetto; a string of Italian communities up and down the coastal mountain valleys; and a hodgepodge but heavily native Central Valley.

Unfortunately due to the plagues and the fact that Byzantines have gotten a MASSIVE shot of zeal from the ISOT its highly likely that there won't be enough central valley natives left to sustain a culture. They'll likely all be assimilated into Byzantine culture and will eventually become a minor blip on the ethnic side of things. On the bright side the Natives to the North South and East of us will likely be recovering before we make major contact with them.

Also while I can see the Italians maintaining some independence of culture I don't see that happening long term with the Turks. There's just to few of them to not get swallowed up by the vast Byzantine majority.

Edit: right you were talking short term while my comments on the Turks and Italians were taking a more long term view. Natives will still get mostly wiped out in the next decade or so.
 
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Well if they do or even it was just the normal Aztec empire, I don't imagine Aztec practices like frequent sacrifices, periodic mass sacrifices including of children, and other horrific religious practices which often included things like flaying people of their skin and wearing the victims skins, the cutting out of hearts and cannibalism would go over very well with the east Romans.
 
For everyone talking about plagues, I just want to point out that it might not be that bad, depending on the circumstances. The utterly apocalyptic 90% death rates in central Mexico were not just a result of disease, but also brutal warfare, total social collapse, famine, continued abuse on the part of the Spanish, etc. Most of the estimates I've seen for death rates from disease alone are more along the lines of 25-50%.
 
For everyone talking about plagues, I just want to point out that it might not be that bad, depending on the circumstances. The utterly apocalyptic 90% death rates in central Mexico were not just a result of disease, but also brutal warfare, total social collapse, famine, continued abuse on the part of the Spanish, etc. Most of the estimates I've seen for death rates from disease alone are more along the lines of 25-50%.
Which is still enough to destroy a civilization if it hits after a bad harvest or when the local armies are away from home, social collapse is three meals away, less if the central goverment lacks enough resources to keep control of the population.
 
Well if they do or even it was just the normal Aztec empire, I don't imagine Aztec practices like frequent sacrifices, periodic mass sacrifices including of children, and other horrific religious practices which often included things like flaying people of their skin and wearing the victims skins, the cutting out of hearts and cannibalism would go over very well with the east Romans.
I think they would take a dim view on such things and would probably launch a campaign when they felt ready. Chain mail, steel swords, war horses, and cannon win every time against obsidian and tunics.
 
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So asqwerty3345 you sent me on a quick history search for whether or not the Byzantines would have knowledge of gunpowder and cannons by 1453 and it turns out, YES, the Byzantines would have brought gunpowder weapons to the new world!

They used cannons in their defense against the Ottomans in 1396 which forced the Turks to withdraw. A master founder by the name of Orban then tried to sell his services to the Byzantines later on but they couldn't afford him so he approached Mehmed II instead who hired him on. The more you know.

Obviously Constantinople is going to be stretched for resources, including metal as we've just seen, but now thats just another fork of technology I'm waiting to see evolve in this new timeline.

Cheers all.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but is Constantinople still a heavily fortified city at this time period or has it decayed after the city's long period of decline?
 
Pardon my ignorance, but is Constantinople still a heavily fortified city at this time period or has it decayed after the city's long period of decline?
The old fortifications exist... but that's pretty much it*. Still good enough for mostly Pre-Iron tribals though.

*Even though I say that they were still good enough to hold off the turks for a while.
 
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Pardon my ignorance, but is Constantinople still a heavily fortified city at this time period or has it decayed after the city's long period of decline?

The city was ISOT'd during the third week of the siege that finally broke the city in real life. In the original time line that siege would last another three weeks. So yeah it's not where it was at its peak but its still pretty heavily fortified.

The old fortifications exist... but that's pretty much it*. Still good enough for mostly Pre-Iron tribals though.

*Even though I say that they were still good enough to hold off the turks for a while.

Yeah the Theodosian Walls are pretty much impenetrable for anything short of canon fire so the natives wouldn't be a problem in that regard. Those walls were pretty much the only reason Constantinople was un-taken for the half century it was entirely surrounded by the Ottomans. Heck they were so well built that the sections that weren't deliberately torn down are still standing today.
 
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The old fortifications exist... but that's pretty much it*. Still good enough for mostly Pre-Iron tribals though.
At this moment I'd say Constantinople would be the most fortified position in all of the America's, with Tenochtitlan maybe being a second due to that fact that it's in the center of a lake and can only be reached by long causeways that have bridges that can be raised, or Machu Picchu which is on top of a mountain.
 
Also, didn't the Renaissance get a jump start from all the refugees coming from after the fall of the Byzantine Empire?

So, would the Renaissance be delayed now?

EDIT : No wait I got my dates wrong... it was already happening before the fall.
 
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