Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

Great to see this back as I've been checking in on SV about every other day watching for this to update :)

So might we finally have the hint as to how our new Roman Empire re-encounters the Old World? Spanish Explorers / Conquistadors acting all high and mighty upon first landing then eventual confusing upon discovering hints of Christian religion already existing in these lands. Maybe slight slight excitement when a poor Byzantine scout posted in Central America asks how the heck Spaniards ended up in Eden / Arcadia.

Looking forward to more.
 
An interesting update, I really like how you mix in the sense of righeousness the Romans feel with the sense of responsibility they feel towards the natives.

Spanish Explorers / Conquistadors acting all high and mighty upon first landing then eventual confusing upon discovering hints of Christian religion already existing in these lands. Maybe slight slight excitement when a poor Byzantine scout posted in Central America asks how the heck Spaniards ended up in Eden / Arcadia.

I couldn't help smiling at the thought of the conquistadors being taken to a church to speak with the village leadership.
 
I couldn't help smiling at the thought of the conquistadors being taken to a church to speak with the village leadership.

To take this even further, we get a scene where Cortez and gang get ushered in to village elder who insists they are practicing their religion wrong. "No no, book here from Romans say you are wrong. Orthodox is true way."

"How dare you sa.... wait, what Romans?!"
 
Logical approach. They would win every battle,althought numbers are to small to conqer Aztecs before Cortez would come.
About weapons for allies - best option is giving them steel spearheads ,arrowheads, axes and helmets.
Maybe made some bronze weapons,too ? local smiths should be capable of copy it - and it not put romans in danger.
P.S how princess could have crimson hairs ? some kind of paint ?
 
Oh dear, Cortez is going to ally with the Aztec against the "Romans"...
That or they sacrifice his ass as soon as they see his pale... ass.
Because of "traitor" Romans.
 
Oh dear, Cortez is going to ally with the Aztec against the "Romans"...
That or they sacrifice his ass as soon as they see his pale... ass.
Because of "traitor" Romans.
Would he? I mean, Spain would be taken completely off guard by the existence of the Romans in the new world, and the Aztecs wouldn't exactly be willing to convert.

Not to mention the arrival of the Romans would have started the ticking timebomb that is smallpox.
 
That is assuming the Romans has people infected with smallpox when they were transported across the world otherwise even the first recorded instance of small pox in the americas from what I understand was in 1518 which was then brought to the continent in 1520 by another group of Spanish coming from Hispaniola where Smallpox had been raging since 1518, this group of Spaniards were attacked by Cortés men one of whom caught smallpox from the new arrivals.

Said solder of Cortés would later die in Tenochtitlán where the disease spread to the Aztec population where it desimated 25 percent of the Aztecs then living and spread beyond the empire's borders all the way to the Inca empire where it apparently killed 200,000 inhabitants of the empire as well as the Inca Emperor.
 
That is assuming the Romans has people infected with smallpox when they were transported across the world otherwise even the first recorded instance of small pox in the americas from what I understand was in 1518 which was then brought to the continent in 1520 by another group of Spanish coming from Hispaniola where Smallpox had been raging since 1518, this group of Spaniards were attacked by Cortés men one of whom caught smallpox from the new arrivals.

The Romans instantly brought over a lot more people than the Spanish brought in, and a city under siege is also a hotbed of diseases. And iirc in the earlier chapters there was already a spread of disease among the tribes around them.
 
The Romans instantly brought over a lot more people than the Spanish brought in, and a city under siege is also a hotbed of diseases. And iirc in the earlier chapters there was already a spread of disease among the tribes around them.
How far did the plague go when the Romans arrived other than the tribes around them, did the plague reach both north and south america?
 
How far did the plague go when the Romans arrived other than the tribes around them, did the plague reach both north and south america?

Chapter 5 and 7 mention the Ohlone being hit hard by disease in the years after Roman arrival. But we have no word yet on how far the diseases have spread. Aside from central America not being ravaged by disease yet.
 
...Oh, my Godoka, you actually did it. You actually incorporated my semi-crack idea of an adventurous red-haired Purepecha princess going to Constantinople to prevail upon the Byzantine Emperor for aid and eventually marry into the Palailogos line. This makes me happy on so many levels ^///^

It was a very good update, and not just because of Shanarani. You clearly showed that Alexios was a different man and ruler than his uncle, and that he considered the long-term ramifications of allying with the Purepecha before committing an expedition that will further shake the foundations of Mesoamerica.

Finally, obligatory ShanaraniXDemetrios ship. I can already see the animated romantic movie they're going to make of these two in the future XD
 
red hair occurs naturally in 2 percent of the modern population. No need for paint, its just a hair color.
I always thought,that it is sign of Neandertal ancestors, and as such could be discovered only in Europe/becouse Neanderals never come in any other continent/
But, i had nothing against purple haired indian princess. Some Neandertals could always made it to America, right ?
 
I always thought,that it is sign of Neandertal ancestors, and as such could be discovered only in Europe/becouse Neanderals never come in any other continent/
But, i had nothing against purple haired indian princess. Some Neandertals could always made it to America, right ?
Or some neanderhal-sapiens breeding before the Native Americans' ancestors left Asia, since you have to cross through Neanderthal territory to get from Africa to Siberia.
 
I always thought,that it is sign of Neandertal ancestors, and as such could be discovered only in Europe/becouse Neanderals never come in any other continent/
But, i had nothing against purple haired indian princess. Some Neandertals could always made it to America, right ?

I don't know about the Americas but both Blond and Red hair is something that is known appear in some African, Asian, Middle-eastern and Polynesian ethnic groups its just more rare than than in populations of European descent.
 
[2] With a name roughly translating as 'Walker' it should be little surprise that Shanarani would become famous in her own right. Or that she would be so curious in her explorations of Constantinople, meeting many different people and recording much for her father.

So she is now history's third best Walker
after Kemba and Antoine?
 
Roman Empire, AD 1500
Roman Empire, AD 1500


On the eve of the conflict with the Aztec, the Roman Empire had expanded dramatically in size, compared to where it had been upon Alexios ascending the throne. From a war-torn and tired city with fewer than a third of the population it had once had, to a growing state constantly expanding. Sailing up the rivers leading into Elysium Bay, the Romans found land so fertile- if untamed -that it almost seemed impossible. Land that took to their crops in ways that the overfarmed Greece or Anatolia never had. Even the Natives, relatively few in number, proved more helpful than harmful in this expansion. The Valley of Elysium was so fertile and perfect that the Romans could be forgiven for believing, despite evidence to the contrary, that they were in Eden.

It is true enough that, by the time the Aztec and Purépecha were encountered, the Romans had been broken of this notion. Even with this, there is little point in denying that the land they found was perfect for rapid growth. More fertile soil and bountiful rivers than the Romans could farm in a dozen generations. So many mighty trees that the Roman Navy could function for decades off of just the leftovers from construction of frontier villages and towns. Grasslands and plains that stretched as far as the eye could see, before ending at the foothills of grand mountains.

Of course, this was already known. As early as twenty years after the Romans arrived in Elysium, they already knew of the Valley. Perhaps not the extent of it, nor how truly fertile it was, but they did know of it. As has been covered previously.

However, it is important to reiterate just how valuable this land was. The Roman Empire was, even fifty years after arriving, still relatively compact. Expansion to the North or South was limited. Both by the rising mountains and relatively little easily usable land on the coast and, perhaps more importantly, by how useful the Valley was. Alexios was a man eager to explore, however, he was also a man who saw the value in improving the Roman society before moving too far afield. With so much prime land to settle, as well as the fact that Constantinople had plenty of spare room for growth inside the Theodosian Walls? It made perfect sense to the Emperor and his advisors to focus on exploiting the Valley and the Mountains first.

In this regard, the core of Roman territory remained the area around Elysium Bay. To the North and South, land had been claimed and was slowly being exploited along the coasts, for quite some distance from the City. Not so far as the Romans had explored, however. To the South, only a few islands- with fisherman at best -and a pair of outposts existed of any note. One of these, of course, being the port of Dragases. In these early days, it was a frontier settlement that was important by virtue of being the closest land to the Purépecha and Aztec. In later years, it would become the Second City of the Empire, in a way that Thessaloniki once was.

Beyond these outposts, Roman control was...loose, at best. Inland control around them was strong, at least to the Natives who curiously watched the strange pale men. In the area around Constantinople herself, Roman direct control encompassed most of the Valley and the foothills of the mountains. Exploration of the Mountains themselves, primarily hungry searches for iron, had claimed a loose sort of control over the passes. It was arguable that Roman hands controlled all the land that the Romans had seen, as there was no unified force that could contest this control. Physical realities limited direct control by virtue of the lack of manpower to manifest it.

Even with a baby boom of massive proportions and continued strong growth rates, the Roman population had yet to exceed what had called Constantinople home in the greatest days of the Empire. [1]

Despite this fact, the Roman Empire was well along towards consolidating control of Elysium and- at the time -Arcadia. It was evident, even at the time, that the Empire was soon to reach a tipping point. Even with the reluctance of some to leave Constantinople, the population was continuing to expand rapidly. With the Purépecha and Aztec demonstrating that some in Arcadia could potentially fight the Empire, it became imperative to claim as much land as quickly as possible. This would only become more relevant, when contact with Europe was restored. The Roman military had to be prepared [2]. And the Roman state would have to expand further than they had, cautiously, allowed themselves to this point...



1. The Roman Population was, in the most generous estimates, nearing 250,000 by the turn of the 16th Century. At a growth rate nearing 2.5% at times, with the integration of Natives and the baby boom after the initial event, this is generally accepted as an accurate estimate. With the lack of a proper census for centuries to come, it is difficult to confirm, however. Generally speaking, it is safe to assume the Romans had yet to reach 300,000 again. With Constantinople, at times, hosting over half-a-million people alone, the Empire had yet to truly recover to its once-soaring heights.

2. The Roman Military, of 1500, was stronger than any group in Elysium. However, it was still a shadow of what it once was. General estimates range towards:

12000 Men under Arms, not counting Militia or potential reserves
Ten 'Carrack'-style warships, with perhaps two times as many Galleys


These are simply estimates, though based on relatively strong fact. Most of the Roman military was occupied in expanding the Empire and with the Navy as small as it was, there was little real ability to send a strong force to the aid of the Purépecha.


AN: This is relatively short, I admit.

It is really intended as two things: a short little primer on the state of the Empire, and something I can get up before Star Wars hits this Thursday and my free time dies a horrible death.

(Teacher I may be by degree, I'm currently working at a theater for lack of any job openings. It...is not going to be a fun month.)

Now, for the explanations: The Roman expansion seems, to me, to be a fairly logical path. They've got the Central Valley, as I've said before, and with that much great land? Even with potential flooding issues since they don't have the dam and irrigation systems California does? Yeah. There's very little real need for the Romans to move very far afield, quite yet. They've explored a fair bit of the California coast, and even the mountains, but control of that land? Constantinople itself could hold the entire Roman population with room to spare. There just hasn't been the impetuous to expand that far out yet.

That will change soon enough.

Population: I ran this through the Population Calculator. Starting with my rough '75k' estimate, the Romans at a population growth of 2.2%-ish, end up somewhere around 200-210k by 1500. Toss in the integration of natives, though not too many between disease and how relatively small the native population of California was, I'm eyeballing around 250k for the Roman population in 1500. This growth rate is ludicrously high for their technology, compared to European rates of the time period. However, you've got a miracle from God saving them from certain death (hello, baby boom) and hilariously great land to expand into, and lots of it. I think it's fairly reasonable.

It'll level out...just in time for immigration to be a thing :V

Military: Seemed like a fairly reasonable number. The Romans had 7k men under arms, though 2k were foreign mercenaries, during the Siege. While that was an emergency situation, I see Constantine and Alexios pushing hard for a continued strong force. Paranoia doesn't die that easily. Couple this with the need to garrison the frontiers and explore? Yeah, it seemed reasonable to me.

Next update will move to the Aztec area, and will cover in more detail the Roman force sent to that region, along with their interactions with their new allies.

(also, a map maker I am very, very much not. The modern Cali border is just still there for reference)
 
Been following this TL for a bit. Very interested in any Byzantine/US interactions, assuming the latter isn't butterflied away.

In fact, I'm interested in Byzantine foreign relations in general. A distinctly European power on the American continents will shake things up.
 
I believe that the flooding issues of the Central Valley came about because of draining the tule bogs. Draining those wetlands opened up even more farmland, and also really cut down on the severity of the fogs that would wrap around San Francisco and the Bay area. But it took 'sponge lands' away from doing their excess water storage function and when the bogs were dried up, that also caused the soil of the tule bogs to become tule dust, which blew around causing all sorts of fun respiratory issues. But the Romans have a nice long while before they need to embark on irrigation and land reclamation. And even then, they probably won't drill for water, I can see the Byzantine Romans decided to build aqueducts out to the springs if necessary.

Heh, in this timeline you might see in the modern era 'Aqueduct' brand bottled water instead of the 'Arrowhead' brand. :p
 
I appreciate the way you contrast possible control with actual control, and how much of the Roman control is just them not having any competition.

I also don't know which makes me more giddy. Increased interactions with the Purépecha and how these two empires change in interaction and warfare with the Aztec. Or perhaps the reestablishment of contact with Europe.


Been following this TL for a bit. Very interested in any Byzantine/US interactions, assuming the latter isn't butterflied away.

I think it is likely that the USA will be butterflied away as we know it. But English colonies on the East coast are likely and they might interact. The puritanism will probably clash with Roman Orthodoxy, but both sides will be too distant for meaningful interaction at first. Though I admit I love the idea of a Manifest destiny USA pushing West despite the Romans in the way.

Whatever happens, i think America is going to be an interesting continent with multiple powers influencing things.
 
I suspect the US will be a thing, but its not going to push much past the Mississippi River. MAYBE part of the Louisiana Purchase will be a thing (although France is more likely to sell their American gains to the Romans than to the Americans since they'll be able to pay more), but for obvious reasons the entire territory gained from the Mexican Cession is right out.
 
I suspect the US will be a thing, but its not going to push much past the Mississippi River. MAYBE part of the Louisiana Purchase will be a thing (although France is more likely to sell their American gains to the Romans than to the Americans since they'll be able to pay more), but for obvious reasons the entire territory gained from the Mexican Cession is right out.

Y'know the more I think about it, the more the US is like a perfect rival for the Romans. An East-coast/West-coast rivalry. It might also ensure that the English/American settlers actually abide by treaties with the natives, because the Romans are likely to fund and supply native resistance.

The problem will be that the Romans will have a head-start on setting themselves up, a stronger starting base and even providing an initial pandemic in the Americas so disease will work less effectively. There is a good chance that there will be stronger native resistance, especially once Roman influence begins to reach the East.
 
Back
Top