Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

I've said that there's a Butterfly Net on Europe. However, this is mostly in context of Columbus and the Reformation. Details of those could also change, but the key thing is:

You still have Columbus 'discover' the New World. You still have a Reformation.

Columbus - you had it right,Portugal or England would discover Americas if Spain fail to do so.
but reformation?
Luter become popular,becouse pope demanded money for new Saint Peter church and crusade.With Turks weaker,there would be no cusade/or earlier,when Luter still do not existed/,and pope would not want bigger church in Rome - becouse all money would go on fighting Turks.
Remember,pope would belive,that Turks destroyed Constantinopole - would he wasted any money for anything other then Crusade,if he belived,that Rome is next?
And germans princess would belive the same.Would they support any protestant,if they thought,that Turks could come and raze their countries? i think not.
 
Luther was far from the only reformer. If not him it could have been Zwingli or Jan Hus or someone inspired by Wycliffe. There's too many redundancies for the pope to stay Supreme.
 
The reformation was an inevitable thing, the Catholic Church had been growing incredibly corrupt as a result of several horrid popes, and a few able popes who were better monarchs than Holy men, like Alexander VI. Had it not been Luther, Hus, Zwingli, Wycliffe, or Calvin, another could have started it.

People who believe the reformation could have been averted by the mid-to late 15th century just don't understand how corrupt the church was. It took the Papacy centuries to fully cleanse itself, and even then it still has issues going into today.

On Crusade, funding was never an issue, what was the issue was getting the monarchs and noble of Europe to agree go on a crusade, something that by 1453, they were all incredibly disillusioned with or too busy handling internal disasters to deal with. For example, in 1453, England was on the brink of an outright civil war, France was recovering from the end of the Hundred Years War, and Iberia was busy Reconquista-ing. Germany had devolved into a decentralized mess. That's the traditional crusader providing nations all too busy to do anything for a crusade in 1453 or the immediate future. The Turks seemed so distant a threat in comparison to the very real strife plaguing Western Europe at the time.
 
And the Poles had actually tried to crusade against the Ottomans, and got smacked around for their troubles. In a lot of ways, the Siege of Vienna was, for Poland, a little less about saving Vienna in 1683, more about getting payback on the Turk.
 
This reminds me, how long do you think it would be until Rhomania is capable of trading with the Asian nations? They are a lot closer to them than the Europeans are.
I know others have replied to this already, but to drive the point home for others:

The Pacific is the great desert of the world. Nothing even comes close. I mean, sure, for the aquatic species that live in the ocean, it's obviously different, but for anyone sailing on the surface, the Pacific is mind-bogglingly vast and empty. The large islands that do exist--with the major exception of the Hawaiian islands--are all vaguely near Asia or Australia. There are some small islands in the central Pacific, but they are tiny and not a place you can survive off of for long. And since sailing up towards Alaska and down Russia would involve going against the winds and currents (and into icy, rough seas), that route is a no-go. That leaves the southern Pacific, but even that is a nightmarish prospect, because while it's warmer and the seas usually (but not always) calmer, you really have to know where to go to make the trip less daunting, because it's very easy to just miss the island chains entirely.

Until sailing technology improves drastically, the only place in the Pacific that has any chance of being worth any trading is the Hawaiian Islands, and even that's doubtful.

Which, obviously, makes any kind of prospects of foreign trade more or less dead for centuries (there's Central America, but...tis a scary place in this time period, to say the least). This is actually a blessing in disguise, though, because the Constantinople's geographic position makes it basically completely safe from the West, North, and all but a handful of routes from the South (which would still be quite a long ways from anything that could threaten it). For a vestigial empire like Constantinople, this is godsend, because it means that there are no existential threats to them for a very, very long time. There might be obstacles to expansion, and threats to the peripheral territories, but nothing that could threaten the empire itself. This also means that the empire can invest far more into its civilian, technological, infrastructural, etc, sectors rather than spending a lot on maintaining a large military like most empires would have to. I expect that will mean that while its military technologies will definitely pale in comparison to Europe's when they regain contact with one another, they will be in a much better position economically, geographically, and demographically than Europe could have imagined such a depleted city could have done in such a time frame.

And for Europe, Constantinople's relocation--and the subsequent events surrounding it--will probably make colonies in North America even more appealing, because there's already an established trading partner there, which means lots of potential revenue. And since ancient scientists had already figured out roughly how large the Earth's circumference is, and Constantinople would have gotten a general mapping of the basics of North America by regaining contact, Europe might be able to figure out roughly how big the Pacific is, provided there aren't any other continents they hadn't discovered yet.
 
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I wonder how the Romans will react to how the other Europeans will treat Native Americans. That could be an interesting friction point.
Edit: Another point is how will the Romans react to the practices of human sacrifice practiced in the Mesoamerican and Mississippian cultures? I know they will be off put by it but what level of reaction should be expected.
 
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And the Poles had actually tried to crusade against the Ottomans, and got smacked around for their troubles. In a lot of ways, the Siege of Vienna was, for Poland, a little less about saving Vienna in 1683, more about getting payback on the Turk.


In Varna Battle/1444/ hungarian forces actually win - all turks except janissaries run - but our King charged with personal guards at them and get killed.One person stupidity turned victory into defeat.
In 1683 Poles thought more about war from 1620 to 1673 - that is why our King Sobieski decided,that we must help or would be next victims.

Back to topic - Europe would belive,that turks destroyed Constantinopole - so popes would spend money on fighting Turks,becouse they would fear,that Rome would be next,and german princes who joined Luter to steal from church and become local popes would not start cyvil war - becouse of fear what turks would do to them,if they use cyvil war as opportunity to defeat all european rulers













In Varna battle/1444/ Hungarian-polish force actually win/all except jannissaries run/ - but then our Jan King decided to be hero and charged with his personal guard into janissaries,and died heroically.
After that ,hungarian army reatreatet.One of few exceptions,how one man can change victory into disaster.

But in 1683 people thought most about Turkish attack from 1620-1673 period,and decided/smartly/ that they would be next after Vienna fall.

Back to topic - If Europe belive,that Turks captured and destroyed Constantinopole,then all next popes would thought,that Rome is next - so no any stupid taxes,
and all german princes who helped Luter to steal church property would not do so- becouse they would knew,that Turks would take that stolen property from them with their lives,if they start cyvil war.
All european rulers would be so scared,that they would not risk any major war among themselves.Fear of excintion is great for motivation.
Of course,when Portugals/french/enlish finally discover Constintanopole in America,people would stop fearing Turks- and then we could have our protestant revolution.But only after discovering Constantinopole.
 
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I was going to work on the next chapter, but first:

No Pope, and I do mean no Pope, is going to go 'OH NO, ROME IS NEXT! PANIC PANIC PANIC!'. They didn't when the Turks took Constantinople in our timeline. The Ottomans would have to first consolidate Greece, then batter through the remaining Balkans (and, civil war or not, Hungary is not quite a paper tiger yet), then batter through the Sicilians (which, at this point, includes Naples), and then the Papal States itself. It's actually worse in this timeline, because while I'm obviously not going to spoil anything, the Ottomans are going to have royally pissed off everyone in the Balkans. The Carthage Myth is much worse than the already bad situation of 'loot the town until your asshole of a Sultan goes 'man, we went too far'. With the Balkans being restless and such, the Turks need to spend more time consolidating.

Unless you've got a panicky, extremely faint of heart, detached from reality Pope...there's not going to be any fear of 'ROME IS NEXT'. The Germans are going to be even less inclined to feel that way, because again, Hungary is still in the way. Poland is still in the way. Even if the Ottomans somehow aren't having obvious problems holding the Orthodox Christians down, the Germans will continue doing what they've always done. Very little would change there, other than more anger towards the Turks for the Carthage Myth.

Furthermore, all of this (honestly, a bit annoying) derail is off a misinterpretation of the post in the first place. To whit:

I've said that there's a Butterfly Net on Europe. However, this is mostly in context of Columbus and the Reformation. Details of those could also change, but the key thing is:

You still have Columbus 'discover' the New World. You still have a Reformation.

Emphasis, mine. I never said Luther is the one to start it. I never said it starts the same way. I, in fact, rather explicitly stated there will be a Reformation. Not that there will be the Reformation, that we had IRL.

To sum up: I'm trying to work on the next update, so I would kindly appreciate the derail end.
 
Chapter 8.1
Chapter 8.1
Alexios Palaiologos, Early Reign

In many ways, Alexios Palaiologos had a nearly impossible task ahead of him, upon ascending the throne. Certainly, he was far from ill-prepared for it. He and his brother had both been trained, almost from the moment of awakening in Arcadia, to potentially take the throne. Constantine had known he would have no children. He had prepared for it. However, no amount of preparation would be enough to change a simple fact. Alexios would have to take the throne from a man so beloved, he was already being venerated as a Saint before the Church officially declared him one. The man who had saved the Empire from certain death and destruction, and created so many of the morals and beliefs it would thrive on, in this New World. Was it, indeed, any wonder that Alexios felt the pressure of such a task?

For all of this, he rose to the occasion. Perhaps he was well-trained enough to succeed. Perhaps he was the right man for the time. Perhaps, in the end, he got lucky. Continued exploration and consolidation meant continuing the practices and goals of Constantine. It would not be Alexios, who turned away from that. It would be Alexios who continued what his Uncle had begun, and forged the Empire into a state that could weather anything thrown at it. If Constantine saved the Empire from destruction...his Nephew was the one who lay the foundations for what it would, one day, become...

--From 'The Emperors of Rome in the West, 1453-1900'. 1962, Dragases University Press.


Alexios Palaiologos was never intended to become Emperor. He was in the City mostly for studying, and because of the Siege preventing any possibility of returning to his family in Morea.[1] He was never anything but the nephew of the Emperor. A nephew who came from an even lower position than most, as his father was not even second or third in line for the throne, after Constantine. In the event that Constantinople had continued on as it had, a restless- though nominally independent -vassal of the Turkish Sultans...it was entirely probable he never would have seen the throne. Constantine would have married the Georgian princess, and sired children of his own. Alexios would have returned to Morea, and perhaps, lead a life of a soldier or a scholar. Or any number of things.

Instead, the City was saved, and Constantine would never produce a proper heir. Alexios would, by virtue of being the next oldest child of the Palaiologos Dynasty, be designated heir by his Uncle.

Upon the death of his uncle, Alexios was a man in the prime of his life. Nary more than thirty years of age, he was substantially younger than his uncle had been upon his ascent to the throne. A younger man, though a less ambitious man. Growing up in the shadow of Constantine had given Alexios something of an inferiority complex. He believed, not incorrectly, that he would never live up to his uncle's grand legacy. It would have been foolish to even try, as it may have done more harm to the Empire than good, to try and overtake such an illustrious life. No. Alexios, whatever his personal feelings, was concerned more with preserving his uncle's legacy, than with surpassing it.[2] It was, in this line of thought, that the new Emperor focused on consolidating Rome's grip on Elysium Bay and on expanding yet further. The practices of integration would continue, in regards to the scattered tribes of Natives. The far-reaching exploration of men such as Cappelli would continue under his reign.

In many ways, Alexios would encourage these explorations, more than his uncle had.

Constantine, forever locked in the mindset of the Siege and the Miracle, had been a man obsessed with safety. He worked tirelessly to create a safe haven for the Romans- and, eventually, the Ohlone and other smaller tribes. When he sent expeditions out, it was to make sure that there were no Turks lurking in the distance. That his City had truly moved to a new Eden, a new safe haven. Exploration, to Constantine, was always about safety and discovery. To Alexios, exploration was about expansion. To push the borders of Rome further and further, to find resources and to preserve the work his illustrious predecessor had begun.

During the early days of his reign, Alexios would go on many of these expeditions himself. He had, in his youth, married a scion of the old Laskaris line and had already produced an heir. Unlike his uncle, he saw no problem in leaving the City, if necessary. He had secured his family line. Now it was time to secure the Empire they lived in, and for that, he felt that it was necessary to see the land himself. He ventured among the declining- if slowly recovering -Ohlone population. He became close friends with the son of a Chieftain of the Mutsun tribe. This friendship, and the more adventurous nature of his youth, saw Alexios explore the forests on the southern portion of Elysium Bay. It was the Emperor, in point of fact, who founded several fishing settlements on this portion of the Bay. He was more familiar with the land of his Empire, the core of it, than many of the famous explorers.

It was largely the efforts of his brother, Basil, that prevented him from going on the voyages of Cappelli and the other famous explorers.

Exploration and consolidation aside, Alexios- in his early reign -is also famous for codifying many of the laws relating to interaction with Native people of Arcadia. Constantine operated primarily on the love of his people, and his seemingly divine mandate of civilizing the primitive people he had discovered. No one would dare say no to him. Many believed he was in the right, in what he did. Alexios was one of them, however, he knew that when the first generations had passed...that feeling may well fade away. Would a Roman born in the next century, care as much about what Constantine had desired? Would a Roman who had been raised in a society with Natives already integrated, believe there was a pressing need to integrate more? These questions haunted Alexios, after he returned from an expedition, and after he met many Natives on his own time. It was this, and his friendship with the Mutsun boy, that pushed him into the 'lawmaker' role.

It should come as, relatively, little surprise that the 'Alexios Codex' was put together, entirely for this purpose.[3] Alexios would codify the actions of Constantine, the fears the previous Emperor had put into his journals, and the support of the Church, into a set of laws. Laws that called for the protection of Native populations, and the punishments for those who attempted to murder or steal their way into controlling Native land. Natives were to be treated as any other citizen of the Empire, and if they happened to be a tribe outside of the Empire, all actions must be taken to bring them in. None of this was new, of course. Alexios merely...made it official policy, that it would take a similar act of an Emperor to dismantle. Even then, what Emperor would go against Constantine's wishes? What Emperor could expect the people to follow him, if he did so?

Furthermore, Alexios worked with the Patriarch to settle a dispute on how to convert the Natives, and what role they should play in the Church itself. With the overtly religious nature of Constantinople's relocation, it was little surprise that the Church pushed for more power, once Constantine had passed. There was a certain desire, by the Patriarchate, to have full control over how to treat Natives. Alexios was willing to grant that, with the promise that persecution would be minimal. Converting by the Sword may have worked, for the Latins, but it would not do for the Arcadians. If the Rus could be converted by their own rulers, then Alexios saw little reason why the Natives could not do the same. They must want to become Christians, before they would be forced to become such.

These are, of course, just two examples of the Codex. Alexios put equal effort into reforging the Roman military and civil services.

All of these early efforts would, naturally, come to pay off when Alexios began to near the later periods of his reign. As he grew older and wiser, he continued to consolidate and expand the Empire. It was, in fact, in the process of doing so...that the Romans would first meet the people's of the South. People who would fascinate, and disgust, the Romans in equal measure.

"They worship the Devil, truly. As good Christians, how are we supposed to react to this? Should we let them be, to rot in their own damnation? Or should we attempt to save them, as we have saved so many others?"

Alexios spoke those words, when Cappelli returned from a voyage to where he had first seen the strange people, on the coast of an even stranger land. The first contact with people who would become some of the first enemies of the Empire in Arcadia...and some, who would become steadfast allies.



1. When contact was regained with Europe, the descendants of Alexios were quite curious of what happened to their family in Morea. They would be shocked when they found out.

2. Some believe that Alexios always labored under the annoyance that he would never, ever, be as well known as his Uncle. Others that he was not prideful enough to care, and quite content with the lot he had been given. All agree that the Emperor threw everything he had into preserving what Constantine had begun, through both the Codex and his actions on the fringes of the Empire.

3. The 'Alexios Codex' is a set of laws that continue to be followed, if in modified form, to this day. The codified methods of working with the Natives. The reorganization of the Roman Military. The Civil Services set up by the Codex. The relation between the Crown and the Church. All of these had their basis in the actions of Alexios, in many ways.


AN: Admittedly, not a whole lot of new stuff here. However, I felt that Alexios would basically go for 'consolidate and codify' for his early reign. He needs to make certain that what Constantine did on his 'divine right' would not be torn away, by mortal men. Thus, the stuff with the natives and all that.

Also, I didn't drop that hint about Cappelli seeing natives in 'Mexico' for no reason. :V

Next chapter will be the promised one for him, and then after that, part two of Alexios. All three will be sub-parts to the greater 'Chapter 8'. Which is why this is Chapter 8.1.
 
1. When contact was regained with Europe, the descendants of Alexios were quite curious of what happened to their family in Morea. They would be shocked when they found out.
Tease. :p
All of these early efforts would, naturally, come to pay off when Alexios began to near the later periods of his reign. As he grew older and wiser, he continued to consolidate and expand the Empire. It was, in fact, in the process of doing so...that the Romans would first meet the people's of the South. People who would fascinate, and disgust, the Romans in equal measure.

"They worship the Devil, truly. As good Christians, how are we supposed to react to this? Should we let them be, to rot in their own damnation? Or should we attempt to save them, as we have saved so many others?"

Alexios spoke those words, when Cappelli returned from a voyage to where he had first seen the strange people, on the coast of an even stranger land. The first contact with people who would become some of the first enemies of the Empire in Arcadia...and some, who would become steadfast allies.
Also, I didn't drop that hint about Cappelli seeing natives in 'Mexico' for no reason. :V
Aaaaaaaaand here we go. This is going to be one wierd campaign.
 
Remember the siege and fall (in the real world) of Constantinople happened in the wake of the failure of the Crusade at Varna; where the Polish/Hungarian King got himself killed with a foolish action and broke the back of a crusade that may otherwise have succeeded. It is very unlikely a new Crusade would be happening any time soon.
 
A crusade in Europe and the middle east or a crusade between the Romans and the devil worshipers in the the south?
Sorry, against the ottomans; I was replying to the pre-chapter stuff. Basically had the city vanished before November 11th, 1444 we could expect the Ottomans would probably have been crushed as more armies flocked to the banner of the Crusade. But the failure of a crusade in living memory is sufficient to deter another call.

I don't expect the Romans to call a crusade either. That was primarily a catholic thing. I do expect it to come to a rather vicious war, if only because the Aztec tribes at this time were... let's call it bloodthirsty. The Inca would probably have been a peaceful enough meeting, aside from the horrible plague it would unleash.
 
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I do expect it to come to a rather vicious war, if only because the Aztec tribes at this time were... let's call it bloodthirsty.
Well the Romans probably have more than 608 men so they will probably be able to wrap up an all out war quicker than Cortes did. They would probably be able to do the same thing he did and get the unhappy subjects of the Aztecs to flock to their banner which would give them guides and auxiliaries.
 
I think these chaps will be unimpressed by these fellas.
Doesn't really seem all that fair does it.
 
Yeah, just going to say, the Orthodox Church doesn't have all that Just War doctrine that spawned the Crusades, and with the 4th Crusade carved into the Greek cultural memory, no Roman would ever agree to call one.
 
Yeah, just going to say, the Orthodox Church doesn't have all that Just War doctrine that spawned the Crusades, and with the 4th Crusade carved into the Greek cultural memory, no Roman would ever agree to call one.
Maybe but the Saracen's weren't into the blood sacrifice that the Aztecs think is the only thing keeping the sun rising every morning.
 
Maybe but the Saracen's weren't into the blood sacrifice that the Aztecs think is the only thing keeping the sun rising every morning.
Crusades and holy wars still have unpleasant memories and scars on the collective psyche of the Greek People, a crusade won't happen.
 
Crusades and holy wars still have unpleasant memories and scars on the collective psyche of the Greek People, a crusade won't happen.
I'd think it would depend on what the Byzantium explores observe. The massive blood sacrifices, skull racks, and the wearing of flayed human skins by some of the priesthood would probably already do enough to terrify the visitors, if they ever observe the nobility ritualistically eating a captive or, god forbid, arrive around the time of one of the festivals which involved the nobility eating one of the lower classes I think some people might believe it is their duty as a god fearing people to send their armies south. Doubly so if any of the numerous civilizations that the Aztec raid for captives plead with those explorers for assistance.
 
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I'd think it would depend on what the Byzantium explores observe. The massive blood sacrifices, skull racks, and wearing of flayed human skins into battle would probably already do enough to terrify the visitors, if they ever observe the nobility ritualistically eating a captive or, god forbid, arrive around the time of one of the festivals which involved the nobility eating one of the lower classes I think some people might believe it is their duty as a god fearing people to send their armies south. Doubly so if any of the numerous civilizations that the Aztec raid for captives plead with those explorers for assistance.
Didn't they also kick down the corpses of their sacrifice victims down the steps of the temple too?

Also, I might be confusing the Mayans with the Aztecs but if I remeber correctly they also had an variety of diffrent sacrifice methods.
 
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In terms of Aztec armor, the quilted cotton armor was also soaked in brine and left to dry. It would provide a great deal more protection than it appears. It's probably the best protection you can get before leather and metal armor and synthetic materials.
 
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