Mare Nostrum intensifies
Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
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NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
It's the correct term in Latin, but I believe they were trying to say it in Spanish instead.
Most likely not. If they take anything from Orthodoxy, that could be construed as recognizing Arcadia or Russia as having a more legitimate claim to being the Roman Empire....which when a large portion of all protestants are in Germany, aka the Holy Roman Empire? Well, thats a bunch of nobles who immediately see little reason to do so. Meanwhile, in England? I expect it to be much like OTL where is basically is just taking catholicism, adding in some reforms, and placing it under royal control.
Revan Skirata
I am Revan Reborn, and before me you are nothing.
- Location
- Why do you want to know?
I know that's translation to Latin, but I was going for Spanish since, well, it was in reference to Spain.
Tiny_Dic
Superreasonable Asshole Centrist | McSimp
- Location
- My Room
Orthodoxy converts Protestant heretics with unity and logic
The Purple Phoenix Rises! I even created an endorsement for it!
(If ya wish ta sub pls do it!)
View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/49_vIbqANRk
(If ya wish ta sub pls do it!)
View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/49_vIbqANRk
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A lot of the Protestant nobles who converted early saw themselves in opposition to the empire, which was run by by the very catholic Habsburgs, and at times would have been more happy in a separate (Protestant) Kingdom of Germany. (The 30 years war will be very different this time around, btw. The only reason the Emperors could stay in the fight as long as they did was massive financial subsidy by Spain, which they absolutely won't be able to do without the riches of both the Aztec and Inca empires.)
Other than Papal primacy, which the Protestants of course don't want to retain, isn't the only major doctrinal difference at this time the filioque? With literal divine intervention on the side of the Orthodox, I can totally see the Protestants drop it. This still doesn't automatically align them with the Orthodox, because the Protestants will of course add a whole bunch of their own doctrines that are heretical, distasteful, or downright bizarre to the Orthodox, such as sola scriptura.
Dont underestimate the ability of people to delude themselves. All it takes for that to not happen is for someone to successfuly make popular the idea that clearly Constaninople was in fact punished by God, for clearly only those who can visit the Holy Land as a pilgrim are worthy of going to heaven, damning all of the evil city of false romans to hell like the heretic satanists they clearly are!
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Hmm, even barring American wealth, the Spanish and Austrian Hapsburgs would still pretty much all control about all the silver mines as barring those in ottoman hands in a period along with a number of other precious metal mines where there was massive crisis over silver and other precious metals used in coins in Europe and the middle east that was only solved by the riches of the Americas.
No Spanish conquest of Mexico also would likely mean far more Spanish troops that would be available for deployment in Europe.
Beyond that from no Mexican conquest would likely also mean the Spanish don't abandon their gold mines in the Caribbean and would likely look for more sources there of which there were some rich sites like the Spanish didn't find because they lost interest in even looking after the Mexican conquest.
No Spanish conquest of Mexico also would likely mean far more Spanish troops that would be available for deployment in Europe.
Beyond that from no Mexican conquest would likely also mean the Spanish don't abandon their gold mines in the Caribbean and would likely look for more sources there of which there were some rich sites like the Spanish didn't find because they lost interest in even looking after the Mexican conquest.
Indeed. I guess the time is ripe for The Aztecs to become orthodox
Staff Notice: Don't Post Off-Topic Materials
This is off topic but… my birthday is today guys!!!
Jemnite
CVN-69 Fella
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Happy late birthday lol
Thanks ☺️ and Happy Saint Patrick's day today!
Chapter 31
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
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- United States
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- Plural/They/He/Her
Chapter 31
Those Left Behind
Ah, the Greeks. So close to God, yet so far from His Grace. So close to the Turk, so distant from the Roman. From the craggy shores of the Morea to the mountains of Macedonia, the Greeks suffered. First under the harsh rule of Mehmed, bitter at his prize being stolen from him. Oh, the Greeks suffered dearly for that, something that was no fault of their own. It was in the hearts of this hardy folks that the first doubts of the Carthage Myth took hold. Greeks that escaped Galata, Serbs that had been present that day, even disillusioned Turks. They spoke the truth. That Constantinople had vanished, taken by the Lord for some unknown place and purpose. It was not something the Greeks desired to believe.Those Left Behind
'Why leave us behind? What made the Unionists so special? Why this Emperor and this time?'
It was impossible to deny as the Ottomans continued to vent frustration upon the Greeks. This only further proved the point. When Greek fisherman saw the new city rising where Constantinople once lay, it became even more apparent. What others denied for their own reasons, be it power or a plain refusal to see the truth, the Greeks saw. They accepted it. They hated it. The bitter seed of resentment was planted and would only grow. Greek revolts were put down harshly. Bayezid would treat the Greeks better than his father, perhaps, but he made no moves to give them greater freedoms either.
It was the Venetians who aided the Morea in gradually breaking away. By the time that word of Constantinople reached the hills of Greece, the Morea had completely broken free in the Ottoman Time of Troubles. The Venetians held part of the southernmost tip of the peninsula, while the remainder was divided by petty dukes and counts, as eager to fight one another as the Turk. [1] They united in name only when menaced by the shaky Ottoman throne. Otherwise, they fought each other. It was these petty rulers, along with the Greeks languishing under Turkish rule, that learned of what had truly befallen Constantinople.
The bitter seed would grow into a tree of anger and frustrated resentment. God had seen fit to save Constantinople, yet he had not done so for them. Why were they left behind? That question consumed the mind of many a Greek in those days.
- Greece and the Greek People, 1451-1600, Athens, 1939
The history of the Greek people after Constantinople was saved is not a kind tale. The majority of the Greek population had already been languishing under the rule of the Ottoman Sultan even before then, of course. From the mountains of Anatolia to the traditional Greek mainland. Only Constantinople and a smattering of small states remained free of the Turkish grip. From once-mighty Athens, reduced to a Latin backwater. To Epirus, once a contender for the Imperial Throne itself. Small Trebizond lingered on through diplomatic maneuvering and the beauty of her princesses. And then there was the Morea, ruled by the brothers of the Emperor himself and, perhaps, the strongest surviving Greek state. Each of these Greek duchies and pretenders to Imperial might were isolated from each other, divided by Ottoman lands and feuding rulers. [1]
Each would fall, in turn, when the Sultan Mehmed vented his frustrations upon them.
It hardly mattered if they were Latin or Greek. Catholic or Orthodox. Mainland or Pontic. All Greeks would gradually come under the rule of the Sultan, save for tiny Theodoro, as Gothic as it was Greek.
Mehmed's rule would be short, however, as he fell in battle with the Wallachians. As the dynasty of Vlad the Great rose in prominence and pushed into Bulgaria, the Greeks watched and waited. [2] During the period of chaos that encompassed the youth of Bayezid, the Venetians would take advantage to gain a toehold in the Morea. Spring boarding off their control of Greek islands, notably Crete and Cyprus, the Italians looked to regain some shadow of their influence in mainland Greece. It is telling that the Turks treated the Greeks so poorly that even the Latins were looked upon...if not fondly, then certainly better than their hated overlords. The Venetians would march as far as Mystras, rallying discontent Greeks and the remnants of Latin colonies to their side.
While certainly a successful campaign, the Venetians plainly lacked the resources or manpower to fully take advantage of Ottoman weakness. Ottoman garrisons fought bitter holding actions as troops from other portions of Greece joined them. And for all that the Greeks preferred the Venetians to the Turk, they were still rowdy subjects who would much prefer their own lords.
As such, this period of Venetian expansion would only last as long as Bayezid's youth. When the Sultan came of age, it would end in fire and blood. While Bayezid is famous for his conquests in the East, he did not ignore his Greek holdings. He stamped down on various petty revolts in the heart of Greece, before marching on Morea. The Venetian armies, distracted by a concurrent revolt in Crete, could not hold him back. [3]
Bayezid could not, however, push Venice out entirely. They would maintain a toehold in southern Morea and the Sultan would allow it, in exchange for the Italians no longer funding revolts against his rule. With his flank secured, Bayezid marched to his more famous conquests in the East, while the Greeks simmered in anger at their rulers once more. Open revolts largely fell away, replaced by organization of churches and other such things. An underground resistance that was largely focused on villages that paid less taxes or resisted efforts at religious conversion. It was the kind of thing that a Sultan could largely ignore, in favor of grand battles with Persia or Egypt.
It was a thing that the Turks would regret ignoring.
When Bayezid passed on and the Time of Troubles began, the Greeks rose up all across their homeland. Revolts in Athens or Epirus or Macedonia were brutally put down by Ahmet's forces, joined by loyal Bulgarians and Serbs who hated the Greeks almost as much as the Turks did. For all that these revolts failed, however, the same could not be said for the similar actions in the Morea. Here, once more funded and supported by Venice- and even Genoa -the Greeks managed to completely throw the Turk from the peninsula. This was due entirely to a gradual relocation of rebellious Greeks to the Morea and- furthermore -to Ahmet conceding the unruly peninsula in favor of fighting his brother, Selim.
Greek forces would rebuild and garrison fortresses along the Isthmus of Corinth in one of the few unified acts before the rebels fell apart into infighting. Rebuilding the Hexamilion Wall itself was beyond their means and, in any case, it had proven useless against the Ottomans on multiple occasions anyway. Instead, fortresses and castles were erected. Old and new, these were a more sensible method of fortification, considering the limited means of the Greeks.
Even acknowledging this fact, they would likely have suffered were the Turks to return in force. As it would turn out, even after the end of the Time of Troubles, the Ottomans would not return. When Selim defeated his brother, the now undisputed Sultan would turn his gaze East against the Persians and Mamlukes. The Greeks of the Morea were left to feud amongst themselves. They would continue to do so, right up to when word of Constantinople reached their craggy shores.
When that word arrived, the reactions were surprisingly benign at first.
Yes, it was true that the Greeks had long accepted that Constantinople was taken by the Lord. It was clear and abundantly obvious to them. The question had never been 'if' Constantinople had been saved, merely 'why' and 'where'. As such, the initial reactions were of a 'so that's what happened' kind of nature. Learning the truth of what they had suspected instead of the earth-shattering revelation it may have been in other locations. This reaction is in stark contrast to that of the Turks, though that is a topic for another time. [4] Similarly, while the reaction may have initially been shockingly minor, it would not be that way for long. The initial dull surprise soon gave way to an angered frustration the likes of which has rarely been seen.
Where the Europeans to the West saw potential for monetary gain and new colonies, the Greeks saw a blatant act of favoritism. This feeling was, ironically, shared with the leadership of the Catholic Church. Only where the Pope and his circle viewed it as schismatics being favored and tried to deny that in a self-interested fashion, the Greeks saw it as God shunning them. Rightfully so! No matter the truth of Constantinople's salvation, in those days, it was clearly and obviously an act of God the likes of which had never been seen.
Other Europeans could say the Greeks were clearly God's chosen people.
The Greeks themselves could say 'no, we are most assuredly not.'
It was the Romans of Constantinople that were the ones chosen to be saved from the Turkish boot. Them and the mercenaries that were in the City fighting for gold and fame, not for God and Church. It was those in the City, not even in Galata, that were saved. If anyone were the chosen people, it was them, made even more apparent by the veritable Eden of unspoilt and wealthy land the City had been moved to. They had been given a second chance and a new home that was the envy of many in the world.
This was denied to the Greeks left behind. Had they not been every bit as Rhomaioi as those in the Second Rome? Had they not fought just as hard against Ottoman rule and for the Lord above? They had been suffering longer under the hated Sultan than Constantinople ever had, and yet, they had been left behind. Old grievances were returning in force. It had never been forgotten that Constantinople was saved and they were left behind.
The proof only made it very clear, as it were.
It was in this environment of bitterness and frustration that an interesting seed took root. One will note a continued referring to the Greeks as such, in this discussion. This is not entirely accurate, for most of the period in question. The 'Greeks' still referred to themselves as Rhomaioi, even in their darkest stages of bitterness with regards to Constantinople's apparent salvation. Romans one and all, even if some had clearly been favored over others. Those left behind were every bit as Roman as those saved. That was never in doubt as the common man, from the many villages to the ancient meccas of Greek civilization, all considered themselves Roman first and foremost.
Yet, now staring in the face the sudden resurgence of the Roman Empire in a place so far away it almost defied imagination? That began to shift, gradually, though noticeably. An argument began to take root that the Romans of Constantinople had been given a new home for 'free'. A land of peace and prosperity, if one ignored the devil worshipping natives. They had not suffered. They had prospered.
Those left behind in Greece, had suffered. Oh, how they had suffered. Yet they had endured. They had continued to fight against the Turk, both overtly and in petty refusals to submit. They had always considered themselves Romans...yet now, they saw how 'Roman' was changing. More importantly, they saw how Romans had been saved where they had been left to pain and death.
It was a slow process, at first. Yet the petty dukes and counts in Morea began to take note. They said 'we Greeks have been left to stand alone against the heathen Turks. We have fought and bled, while Constantinople and the Romans grew fat on God's gift! Are we weak Romans, clad in freely given gold, or are we Greeks standing in rusty iron and crumbling stone against our fate?!'
This was a cynical move. These men had been every bit as attached to the Roman identity as any other. If they ever saw themselves as 'Greeks' or God forbid, Hellenes before that moment? That was doubtful. What is not doubtful is their motive here. Far away as Constantinople was, unable to exert influence in Europe, it remained the center of the Roman Empire. The true Roman Empire, not that mockery in Germany.
Or so the Rhomaioi would call it.
If one considered themselves to be a true Roman, would they not look to Constantinople and wonder? Perhaps even consider leaving to join the new promised land?
Thus one can see a cynical desire to paint those left behind as Greeks, not Romans. It was a slow kind of process at first. There was understandable resistance to the idea and it would never completely take root outside of the Morea, not for many years to come. It was countered, in some circles, by a counter argument that Constantinople and her people were Arcadians now, diluted by the natives and their ill-gotten wealth. True Romans were those who remained to fight the Turk instead of living on the Lord's gift. These dueling ideologies both had the same core idea, though. That those left behind were the strong ones who would never bow to anyone.
Those saved were the weak ones, given a gift they had squandered in their slow expansion and lack of interest in conquest. Constantine was certainly not a saint to these Greeks, not in those days.
It did surprise outside observers, of course, to see the Greeks so uninterested in mass migration, even with the difficulties inherent in that. To which the Greeks would always reply that they had fought and bled for their homes. Why would they surrender them now, to join their long-lost cousins as second-class citizens? Some would leave, those too tired of constant suffering. Or those greedy and eager for wealth. Or even those with no real attachment to their land and of the belief that they would be welcomed as Romans when they arrived. The majority of the people of Greece and Anatolia, however? They remained.
As they always had.
A side-question to all of this is, much as with Western Europe, that of religion. A question that was, if anything, even more pertinent in the hills of Greece than the Vatican of Rome.
In the initial days after Constantinople's salvation, when those left behind realized what had occurred...there was a backlash. Constantinople had been the heart of the Unionist cause, something hated by the average Roman citizen. It is difficult to explain just how fervently Romans, Greeks, hated the Catholics and Latins. It had been Latins that destroyed the Empire. Latins that conquered Greece and divided it between them. Latins who had tried to force their Pope upon the unwilling subjects.
That was not something so easily forgotten. When the Palaiologos Emperors had pressed for the Union, it had been recognized as the cynical political ploy it was. 'The Emperors care nothing for the Pope, only for what the Latins can give them'. That had hardly mattered. The Union remained hated and largely ignored outside of Constantinople's walls, though some exceptions did apply.
When Constantinople, then, was saved?
It brought questions, uncomfortable questions, to mind. Had the Union been the correct path after all? Were the ones left behind wrong in their opposition to it? This question would bounce across Greece many a time in those early days. And yet, it was a question that found an answer in a, perhaps, unlikely manner. By a charismatic priest, walking up and down Greece, arguing that the Union had not saved Constantinople. It could not have. It would not have.
Had the Pope saved Rome from its sacking? Had loyalty to Rome, the City, saved Jerusalem from the Muslim hordes that had overrun the Crusader Kingdoms? Had the power of the Pope saved anyone from the Muslims, be they from Egypt or the Turks or even Timur? There was no cause to believe that the Union would have prompted the Lord to save Constantinople and not the Greeks left behind. Had it been so simple, would not the other Unionists have vanished as well?
They very distinctly had not. Unionists or Orthodox or Greek Catholic, it hardly mattered, they had all been left behind just the same. It had not been the actions of the Emperor that had saved Constantinople.
'What saved them, then?' was the inevitable question. The priest would always smile and simply reply 'the will of the Lord is not ours to know.'
A trite answer, perhaps, to those questioning their faith. Yet, also, an answer that allowed them to not feel they had been wronged in some way. Or that they had, in turn, wronged God in some manner. Which, of course, led into another question. If their faith had not been lacking in some manner, then one had to ask why they had been left behind at all? It would not due to question the Lord's power with some inane assumption that he could 'only' move Constantinople and not save all of his 'chosen flock'.
Either the Lord was all powerful and could save whomever he chose, or you did not truly believe in the majesty of God above.
With this in mind, several different belief systems began to crop up. There were the Unionists, who by and large ignored the priest and his followers, content in the knowledge they were in fact following the right path. There were the other flavors of Greek Catholics, equally as assured that they were in the right, in the end. Even if they had been left behind with their fellow Catholics in other parts of Europe. In Anatolia, Armenians and Greeks melded with one another, still apart yet united in the belief they had clearly not been chosen and there had to be a reason to that. A reason they would need to search and discover.
By far the largest group, naturally, remained the Orthodox population. This grouping fractured and divided itself into bickering arguments over who had been saved and who had been left behind and why. If they were united in anything, it was in a subtle disdain for the new Ecumenical Patriarch set up as a Turkish puppet. There was no reason to bow to a man who was clearly not chosen by the Lord, merely by a Sultan desperate to regain some control over his Christian subjects. This Patriarch did not even have the Sophia, nor Constantinople itself. He was a puppet and nothing more.
In the divided Orthodox population, then, the most common refrain became one of 'suffering for salvation'. Left behind to languish under Ottoman rule, the Greeks clearly had to work for their salvation. The Lord had not abandoned them. The Lord had set them a task, a goal to work towards, having made clear He could and would save those that He considered worthy. Demonstrating faith by remaining faithful even in the harshest of conditions? That was a path to salvation. A path to Constantinople. Discarding one's faith simply out of spite for being left behind? That would do nothing but doom one to an afterlife of suffering akin to their life of suffering.
While similar, there was a marginally different concept as well. The idea that one merely needed to prove their faith in all their actions. Charitable acts became common among those who believed this, content in the knowledge that armed conquest was not the way forward. This would prove popular among those living on the fringes of Turkish rule, where they could avoid the worst repressions. It was scornfully looked down upon by those who suffered the Turkish yoke and fought back with everything they had.
There were more belief systems cropping up than just these two, naturally, as a people in flux looked to their churches for guidance. If there was any one thing that was common, it was that turning back on the Lord was seen as giving up. God had made his presence known and to ignore that was tantamount to spiritual suicide. People who saw themselves as Romans were certainly not going to look back to ancient Greek faith or anything of that nature. [5] No, they were Christians, through and through. They simply had to prove themselves worthy of salvation.
When word of Constantinople arrived in Greece? It did little to change these beliefs. It merely gave more credence to the idea that God would give those he chose a new home. A great home. A peaceful home. One simply had to work to it.
If it changed anything, it simply hardened those who believed that they were left behind to suffer and prove themselves. Much as a Greek identity formed around the idea that those left behind were the strong ones, so too did a religious concept following that train of thought. It would, even now, mark Greek Orthodox Churches apart from those in Arcadia or even the steppes of the Rus.
As for the reaction of Greece's overlords to all of this?
Well, that's a question for another time.
1. One should never underestimate the headiness (and pettiness) of power. Each of the Dukes and Counts of the Morea were interested in their own power. None wanted to bow to another. Each considered themselves a successor to the Despotate, nay, the Empire of old. It was a futile effort to get them to cooperate beyond standing against the Ottoman Sultans. This isn't even touching on Venice, Genoa and others, using the rulers for their own purposes. Venice, in particular, would quite like to rule the entire Morea instead of their enclave in the south.
2. Of all the enemies of the Ottomans, none had prospered more so than Wallachia. With Vlad's defeat of Mehmed, the Wallachians had marched into Bulgaria, only stopping when content with what they ruled. Since then, they had solidified their hold on their lands and even worked out agreements with the Crimeans. The Wallachians lacked the manpower of the Mamlukes, perhaps, but they were a far more stable realm and one much better emplaced to defend itself. They were a regional power with the potential to be much more, if the proper push were given.
3. The Cretans were never entirely content under Venetian rule. Revolts were...not common, though when they did happen, they were often bloody and extensive. The revolt that distracted Venice from their mainland gains? In later years, this revolt would be looked to by those desiring Cretan independence as the first time they stood, properly, for themselves. A foundational myth akin to those great ancient battles between the City-states of Greece and the Persian Empire of Darius and Xerxes.
4. While it shall be covered in greater detail at a later point, suffice it to say that the revelations of Constantinople shook the Ottoman state to its very core. Were any other Sultan in power, it might have well led to the complete collapse of the Ottoman Sultanate, as vultures circled, within and without.
5. Interest in ancient Greek culture quite aside, only a very few Greeks would look back on their old gods and goddesses. Their faith had been shaken, yes, but such an overt act by God himself did not incline many towards looking to discredited old gods. More likely that they would refuse to believe in any God caring for them than that.
AN: That took a bit longer than intended, but there we go. Mostly took longer because we began to realize this was going to be quite long enough just covering Greece, even in this form. Covering the other Eastern Europeans- not to mention the Ottomans or Mamlukes -would have been a looooong boi. So, instead, we have the Greeks here. Next update will look at the Turks and Egyptians with a side of the Persians, though mostly focusing on the Ottomans.
Hungary, Crimea and such will probably be a final update, wrapping things up in Europe before swinging back over to Arcadia and America. We haven't seen the Inca yet, after all.
- Location
- India
I am surprised true Greek not taken Gnostic view that it is not God but satan saved the city while God allowed true greeks to suffer so that they can teach salvation though their own efforts.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
I Wonder whether, given the Pope's intransigence, we might see the Reformation (or something like it) spark in Portugal or Spain in this timeline? Given they're the nations closest to Constantinople, and therefore have the largest proportion of people who've visited and believe in the reality of the miracle of Constantinople.
Martin Luther instead being a Spanish priest who visited Constantinople with one of the groups of traders
Imagine if The reformation happens in Bohemia or Venice. That would be a doozy.
Or better yet, Martin becomes the Pope and the Protestant Refor no, The Protestant Revolution begins in Rome, the seat of Catholicism.
Well, these butterflies are interesting but events in this au will keep happening and who knows what it will be like far in the future.
Oh dear... it appears that the Greeks are beginning to puzzle out the concept of Nationalism a couple centuries ahead of the Enlightenment & Revolutionary/Napoleonic era.
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- Location
- La Serena, Chile
Oh yeah...the resentment of those left behind. I totally forgot that. Then again, my knowledge of Europen history Is barebones for this era.
I wonder if the question "Why they were not saved" will affect the descendants of those saved by God. Maybe a sense of Guilt born from getting such gift while their fellows from other lands suffered.
I wonder if the question "Why they were not saved" will affect the descendants of those saved by God. Maybe a sense of Guilt born from getting such gift while their fellows from other lands suffered.
They'd probably get over it. Remember a desire to temporarily annex Greece and above+ Theodoro and then make an independent Roman state? This is how they get over it.
It's also possible that they simply get apathetic.
Bump
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Apologies for the delay on updates. Last month of school is a bit of a hectic and stressful one, so that sucked up a lot of time and energy. Toss in Youtube hitting critical mass, as it were, and needing to keep that going?
Yeah. Busy.
In any case, summer break is here now. Currently planning on updating sometime this week. And with a couple months of no work other than videos, going to try and get a good chunk of progress done in that time. Hopefully.
(assuming, y'know, the global economy doesn't blow up in a couple days and it becomes necessary to find something to work)
Yeah. Busy.
In any case, summer break is here now. Currently planning on updating sometime this week. And with a couple months of no work other than videos, going to try and get a good chunk of progress done in that time. Hopefully.
(assuming, y'know, the global economy doesn't blow up in a couple days and it becomes necessary to find something to work)