Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

the history of american archaeology should be required reading for all aspiring scientists and academics. just an absolute shitshow throughout, one that irrefutably breaks the lauded and mythologised infallability of thier respective institutions, cultures and ontology.
 
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Yeah… it's… really really bad. Worse than that Ancient Aliens tv show in places even.
Unfortunately not a lot of actual research has gotten through white washing filters yet, though it has been… slowly… getting better the last half a decade that I've noticed.
 
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From what I gathered Mustangs largely seem to be of Spanish stock, more pointedly the Spanish colonial horse though often mixing with other breeds, the Spanish colonial horse origins which is apparently really noticeable with isolated bands of mustangs.

That being said I wouldn't doubt horses showing up before the Spanish actually made it to the mainland because if nothing else horses can swim, and there isn't a lack of oral histories about horses coming to shore from ship wreaks along the US east coast.

The famed wild ponies of Virginia and Maryland apparently according to a genetic study seem to be of Iberian origins as they are apparently genetically common descent to an Iberian horse tooth accidently recovered from Puerto Real.

The same is generally believed about the wild horses of the outer banks as well though I don't think there have actually been genetic studies on those yet.
 
From what I gathered Mustangs largely seem to be of Spanish stock, more pointedly the Spanish colonial horse though often mixing with other breeds, the Spanish colonial horse origins which is apparently really noticeable with isolated bands of mustangs.

That being said I wouldn't doubt horses showing up before the Spanish actually made it to the mainland because if nothing else horses can swim, and there isn't a lack of oral histories about horses coming to shore from ship wreaks along the US east coast.

I think the lack of verifiably pre-columbian horse DNA samples is probably the best explanation for this.

Additionally, you have the fact that the introduced Iberian horses would have immediately begun interbreeding with any remaining indigenous horses, combined with the propensity of the Europeans to slaughter any livestock that they came across, and it's really not at all surprising that any wild horses you test today come up with Iberian ancestry.
 
As I mentioned, it's something that is supported by various Native American oral histories, which of course have been disputed for years by "proper" archaeologists. I don't remember if this is in the Yes Magazine article or not, but I had read that any excavations that discovered horse bones outside of the expected soil level (i.e. in pre-Columbian digs) would tend to immediately write them off as the result of soil movement, burrowing creatures, etc, even if there were no other actual indications of such damage to the site.

Evidence, it turns out, doesn't matter very much if it's ignored due to bias.

I do not doubt that many of our sources for history and archaeology are slanted.

I just cautiously note that so far no sources have been cited for the survival of indigenous horses within a historic timescale.

Possibly such sources have been stifled by hostile academia, but one presumes they must exist somewhere.
 
I just cautiously note that so far no sources have been cited for the survival of indigenous horses within a historic timescale.

And that is a perfectly valid point. I'll see what I can find, if I can remember where the heck it was online.

At the same time, we are talking about a piece of alternate history fiction here, not necessarily settling the debate for the sake of the American archaeological community. If the author wants to take some slightly speculative research and use it, it's entirely up to them.
 
Possibly such sources have been stifled by hostile academia, but one presumes they must exist somewhere.

So I was able to find this piece in Indian Country Today. It has the same source as the Yes Magazine article, but goes into much more detail from her doctoral dissertation (which was as it turns out linked, but barely skimmed over, in the other piece).


Here's an excerpt from p.155-156 of the dissertation:

Other instances where carbon dating was utilized to test the age of horse bones occurred in a study led by Dr. Steven Jones, Professor Wade Miller, Joaquin Arroyo-Cabrales, Patricia M.Fazio, and Shelby Saberon. In this study, Accelerator Mass Spectrometer (AMS) dating methods were utilized. "The goal was to provide radiocarbon dates for samples that appeared from depth and other considerations to be pre-Columbian" 421 The following independent laboratories were utilized to conduct the AMS dating process: Stafford Laboratories in Colorado, the University of California at Riverside, and Beta Analytic in Miami, Florida. According to Jones the following samples of Equus that were found in North America were verified as being within the time frame that extends from 10,000 BP (after the last Ice Age) to 500 BP (when Spaniards began bringing horses to the Americas):

Jones: 'Were There Horses in the Americas Before Columbus?' said:
The first of these was found in Pratt Cave near El Paso, Texas, by Prof. Ernest Lundelius of Texas A&M University … [He] provided a horse bone from Pratt Cave which dated to BC 6020-5890. This date is well since the last ice age, into the time frame when all American horses should have been absent according to the prevailing paradigm. Another Equus specimen was identified by Elaine Anderson, an expert in Equus identification, at Wolf Spider Cave, Colorado. It dated to AD 1260-1400, again clearly before Columbus… Dr. Fazio … alerted us to a horse bone found at Horsethief Cave in Wyoming which dates to approximately 3,124 BP, i.e., 1100 BC, using thermoluminescent methods. We attempted to have this bone re-dated using the AMS methods which are more accurate, but there proved to be insufficient collegen in the bone to permit AMS dating. The 1100 BC date (although approximate) still stands.
 
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Chapter 36
Chapter 36
The Northern Frontier of the Empire

In the early days of the Arcadian Roman Empire, the Arcadian Empire to some, the North was largely ignored. Elysium, proper, was a large and prosperous land. Constantinople's entire population could have moved into the Great Valley and lived there comfortably for decades of growth. Indeed, more than a few people did just that, gradually integrating with various native populations all the while. Those who didn't enter the Valley largely remained in Constantinople, as that grand city revitalized itself from centuries of neglect and decline. Old buildings were scavenged for material to build newer, grander, structures. By the time Europeans arrived, Constantinople was arguably more grandiose than it had been in centuries.[1] As for those who chose neither Constantinople, nor the Valley?

They primarily looked to the south. These were the men and women who settled Dragases, and other settlements along the coast. As well as those who migrated to the lands of the Purépecha, to join Prince Demetrios and his initial vanguard.

Only a bare handful of Romans and Romanized natives ever ventured North. The lands weren't harsh, at least not for quite some distance North, but there were few incentives to travel that direction. No allure of gold or natives to convert to the Church. It was a comparatively empty land, with little attraction to the average Roman. Those who went North were explorers, in the days of Roman exploration, and those who wanted a life away from the heartland. It should be little surprise that when the Emperor Heraklonas sent his younger sons away from home, one would go to the North. That son would, in turn, found a dynasty of his own in the isolated Northern Reaches of the Empire. A small fiefdom, still technically bowing the knee to Constantinople. It was part of the Empire, yet it was also not. It was a study in contrasts, in those early days.

-The Roman North, 1500-1550, Constantinople University Press, 1989



When the first Roman explorers ventured forth, under Constantine and Alexios, some of them had chosen to sail to the far North of Elysium. And, indeed, beyond.

These intrepid men were sailing into the unknown. Even the Ohlone, who were familiar with much of Elysium, did not know what awaited them. The sailors went north anyway, in search of riches- the gold mines had yet to be discovered -or other signs of human life. Riches, they would not find. Unless one counted furs and fish, as the famous Elysian sea lions greeted them at every turn. As did many, varied, kinds of fish. These were well worth a trip, in their own right, especially for feeding Constantinople's hungry population. However, these were not the kind of riches the explorers had set sail to find. No gold, no silver, no precious gems. It shouldn't have come as a surprise, really, as most of the land they explored was strangely empty.

There were small fishing villages, of sorts, but little beyond that. While the explorations to the south would eventually come upon the great Mesoarcadian civilizations, those to the north found little more advanced than the Ohlone.[2]

As a result, the explorers returned home. In their mind, they returned largely empty handed. Small Roman fishing and fur hunting outposts would spring up over the years, but little more than that. It might have remained such, for quite some time, had events to the South not changed.

As the reign of Alexios continued, and contact with the Aztec and Purépecha came to the south, exploration gradually ground to a halt. The worry of encountering another enemy, as bad or worse than the Aztec, weighed heavily on the mind of the aging Emperor. And especially so on his son and heir, Heraklonas, a man already conservative by his very nature. The days of exploration were over, and the days of consolidation began. Settlements like Dragases began to grow ever larger, as resources were pushed into consolidating the existing holdings. The only truly new settlements were coastal forts, lining Elysium from Constantinople to the Second City of the Empire. In a sense, this was a wise move. It allowed the Empire to fortify itself, and focus on expanding inland, instead of potentially creating new enemies to fight. There were no such enemies, as it would turn out, yet it seemed a prudent move to the movers and shakers in Constantinople.

It did, however, paradoxically increase interest in the northern frontier. For a certain value of 'increased interest'. These lands remained unappealing and generally underdeveloped, largely populated by hardy fisherman with little interest in the comings and goings of the elite. However, the South was becoming more and more 'civilized'. And starting a new life, in a new land, became harder and harder as all efforts were made to improve what was already there.

What was good for the Empire, as a whole, was often not good for those who wished for a new life. Certainly not those who craved independent living, over all else.

It was this fact that drove interest in the previously ignored north. Suddenly, those largely empty- scattered native tribes aside -lands became a haven. For those who desired escape from the hustle and bustle of civilized life, it seemed a paradise. An admittedly cool paradise, with little of interest outside hunting or fishing, but the fact remained. If one wanted the ultimate escape from the growing Empire, this was it.

It should be noted, of course, that this remained a fraction of a fraction of the Roman population. Most of the Roman population, be they descended from Constantinople's population or various native tribes, were growing content in their new lives. The spread of civilization often came with an increase in the quality of life. While certain native tribes regretted the loss of their independence, of their ability to migrate to new homes, this remained true. Permanent villages provided a safe and stable life. Disease gradually faded away, and the population continued to boom. With no external enemies, or at least no enemies that could reach the Roman heartland, this was especially true. Nothing drove a growing population quite like a safe home and no threat to the people's livelihood. And the very vast majority of the Roman population was completely content in this.

Nonetheless, there were always those who wanted something more. Adventurous spirits, exiles, those trying to escape their family or a crime. Any number of reasons, in the end.

And to the North, many of these people went. Some chose to look to the mountains or the deep forest of the Valley, but many chose the fishing villages instead.

It was these hardy folks who thrived on the frontier of Roman society. The sleepy fishing villages began to grow, in their own right, but in a way that escaped central authority. Taxation and the Roman army were almost non-existent, in the cooler northern territories. There was some initial friction between these new arrivals and the preexisting settlements. Roman society was less than a century old in Arcadia, at this point, but many of these villages had been founded decades before the small migrations. It must have seemed odd to these settlers when, suddenly, independent minded Romans began to move into their homes. There might have been more friction, were it not for the fact that there were quite a few similarities between those in the villages, and the new arrivals.

And, of course, the fact that another exile would soon arrive. A man to lead them all and forge something greater than the sum of its parts. For who better to lead exiles and those tired of civilization, than a man exiled from that very civilization?

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So. This shall be my 'kingdom'. My inheritance. Fisherman and rabble barely fit for proper society. I suppose it could have been worse. Father could have blinded and castrated me, before shoving me in a monastery in the mountains.

A young man, in the prime of his life, stared out upon the largest 'village' in the Roman north. It was barely worth the name, consisting of a wooden wall and perhaps two hundred people, living in simple huts with no stonework beyond the squat church at the center of the village. Hardly an awe-inspiring sight. About as far from the gleaming marble and gold of Constantinople as it was possible to be. From what he understood of the Mesoarcadians, it would have been underwhelming even to them and his uncle.

Yet, he smiled.

His father thought to send him where he was no threat to the throne. No threat to his eldest brother. The man bore no ill will towards Leo, who had no choice in the decision. He loathed his father for it, although he had held his tongue, well aware of how lenient the man had been. No Roman prince could escape the knowledge that far worse fates awaited claimants to the throne. Exile to the north was by far and away the preferable option.

"Not a place fit for a prince to call his court, is it?" The captain of the ship stood beside the Prince. He was one of the few ship captains to routinely brave the northern waters, before returning to Constantinople. "Yet, you'll find no place larger than this for many leagues."

The Prince turned, with a wan smile, "So I have heard. Does this village have a name?"

"Not as such, no. None can agree on what to call it, as it is still a new settlement." The captain shrugged, barking out orders to his crew as the ship moored in the river running next to the village.

For his part, the Prince simply nodded. He had expected as much. It suited him just fine, in any event. If this was to be the place he made his court, for lack of a better term, he would quite like to name it himself. What? No Prince was without their ego. "I see. Well, I will take my leave of you now, my friend. Should I expect you to return regularly, as we discussed?"

"Your coin still pays well, exile or no. Of course."

With a small snort of amuesment, the captain waved the Prince off, as members of his crew arrived to help the noble to a smaller boat. This village had no proper port, and the Prince would have to bear with the indignity of arriving ashore in a rowboat. Strangely, he found little reason to complain about that. From what he know of these people, they would have seen anything else as reason to throw him out. These were a people who valued independence and loathed 'civlization' in all its aspects. They would not have left the Empire for the north if not for that. Even the forests of the valley weren't enough for that. It was enough to make the Prince smile wider when he thought of it. Were he here as an envoy of his father, they would have- politely -thrown him out on his head. The people of this land had no love for the Emperor and his edicts.

That served this Prince just fine. He shared in their dislike for his father.

"Still, I suppose I should think of a name for this place." He idly mused, stroking his beard as he sat in the rowboat. A curious crowd of onlookers had gathered, watching the new arrival. He saw men with unkempt beards, and women wearing threabare dresses.

Yet, for all their roughness, the people seemed healthy. And, if wary, still happy. To a son of Constantinople, it was quite interesting. He would admit he didn't truly understand them, dislike for his father or not. Regardless, he would have to learn to understand them. These were his people to rule. The core of his little realm, ostensibly under his father's rule. A small and underpopulated land of exiles, that would never be a threat to Constantinople, nor the line of his brother. Leo wouldn't see him as such a threat, the Prince liked to think, but that point remained. He was gaining a land of unruly exiles and fisherman. Not a land of proper Romans.

Then, what was a proper Roman, really?

Looking at the river, stretching inland as far as his eyes could follow, the Prince smiled once more. Ah. That should do, I think.

Pýlitou Vorrá. 'Gate of the North'. [3]

Prince Romanos, the exiled third son of Emperor Heraklonas, was home. A home that he wouldn't have chosen for himself, yet a home he would make for himself.

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The arrival of Romanos to the northern lands changed less than one might assume. He was not thrown out immediately, as he might have been were he an envoy of his father. He was also hardly able to instantly form a princedom out of the people he found. The independence minded fisherman and settlers had no more desire to follow a Prince than they did an Emperor. Romanos had to work to earn their trust, and that would be a slow process indeed. Even so, he took to it with a passion.

Comparisons can, of course, be made with his uncle, Demetrios. And his cousion, Theodoros. Men who had left home and found a new people to call their own, be it the Purépecha or the Maya.

These would be innacurate, however.

Romanos lived among Romans. Romans who had left the Empire, proper, but Romans nonetheless. He did not find a native princess to catch his eye, and heart. He didn't live among a people unlike his own, far from home. For all intents and purposes, he remained within the Roman Empire and ruled over Romans. It simply happened to be on the frontier of that Empire, with those who had left the core lands. Quite a different scenario, surface level similarities aside. Romanos found a new home that was broadly the same as his old home, wood and sod aside. If there were any similarity, past the obvious, it was in Romanos finding his calling on the edge of civilization. Or, at least, Roman civilization. He would never see the throne of the Empire, but here in the cool north, he found a throne...of sorts.

With the freedom of action that came from his nobility, he proceeded to completely ignore his father's edicts, and begin exploring his new realm. He hired ships and built more of his own. The explorations that had largely come to an end under Heraklonas began again, looking for anything of note. It was commonly accepted there would be no great stockpiles of gold, or shining cities like Mesoarcadia. However, the various rivers were certainly worth exploring. And, further still to the north, there were persistent rumors of an island of warriors. That, in particular, interested Romanos. He found the idea of warlike natives in these lands to be...surprising, in a way. Conflicts were a fact of life, yet warriors were thin on the ground, as it were. The tribes the fisherman were familiar with were, by and large, peaceful. Or, at the least, not particularly warlike.

This rumored tribe, however, was both warlike and apparently quite skilled seaman. It was interesting. [4]

The resurgence in exploration did little to change the lives on the Roman frontier, in the end, however. That continued much as it had, Romanos aside. Fisherman plied their trade, sea lions and beavers were hunted down, and the Roman frontiersman continued ignoring the rest of the Empire In a way, it was hardly dissimilar to life on the fringes of any Empire or Kingdom in Europe. The old Roman Empire included. If there was any difference at all? Well, it was in the lack of an enemy raiding villages. It was a peaceful life, where change was rare and incredibly hard to pull off. A true frontier, where only the hardiest would find their new lives.



1. For many years, arguably for centuries, Constantinople had fallen from her peak. The city had been ground down, with the population dying or leaving for the countryside. The farms inside the walls were not for show. Many grand buildings, even the Sophia herself, had fallen into disrepair. That was the state Constantinople arrived in Elyisum, in 1453. In 1518, when Romanos was exiled to the North, this was no longer the case. Constantinople had reached new heights, with grand buildings replacing the farms. The Hagia Sophia was clad in gold, and the palaces became opulent once more. Even the homes of the lower class were magnificent, in comparison to what they once were. It was quite a change, for less than a century of growth.

2. Much like the tribes of Elysium, those of the northern coastal lands were largely primitive. They lacked proper states, in the European sense, and often lived in temporary villages. They were not a simple people, not at all, but they were far from the grand Mesoarcadian cities as well. This made Roman expansion easy, but it also meant there was little incentive to trade with these natives. This is partially responsible for the lack of exploration and expansion, past the early days.

3. Sitting on a large river, this quaint village would become the growing capital of Romanos' realm in the north. It would never be the equal of Dragases, and certainly not Constantinople, but it would begin to grow with investments and immigration from the south. Wooden walls and huts were replaced by stone fortifications and large homes. It would be some time, yet, before it would qualify as a city. The core was certainly there, though, and the Prince would work to expand upon his capital as he gained the trust of his people.

4. This tribe, the Haida, would be one of the more interesting encounters for the northern Romans. Certainly, one of the most consolidated and relatively advanced tribes of the area. Initial relations would shape much of the actions of Romanos' realm, in the future.


AN: Not entirely happy with this, but eh, it's something to get up. Wanted to be clear that this isn't meant as 'another Roman prince off on his own'. Romanos' situation is not the same as Demetrios or Theodoros. He's still in the Roman Empire, he's not going off to some native state. He's certainly not finding some native princess to shack up with. However, it was established that the third of Heraklonas' sons went off to the North to form his own realm of sorts. That is where this came from. As well as a look at the northern frontier of the Roman Empire, which is...basically the place that people who don't want to live in 'civilization' have gone off to. You know the type, probably, and just because the Empire is rich and safe, that doesn't mean you won't have people like this.

It stands to reason that the north, without any major trade or such, would be less enticing to the central authorities. Expanding to the south opens up trade with Mesoarcadia and Europe.

Expanding to the north gets...a lot of mostly empty land, with largely primitive natives. And a lot of fish, seals and sea lions. As well as beavers, inland. Certainly economically viable, but not really worth a lot of central effort. The perfect place for an exiled prince to end up calling home. Or so the intention went.

Hopefully that worked out well enough. Not sure, yet, what the next update will look at. Hopefully won't take as long, without SUDDEN COLD cutting things off >.>

(as for the name of Romanos' capital, well, Google Translate is Google Translate. Obviously, if anyone who actually speaks Greek chimes in, that can be changed.)
 
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Huh, wonder how the popular history version of Romanos's arrival will end up. Given that it sounds like the North will eventually develop its own culture, he'll probably at the very least get turned into a folk hero and gather a few tall tales.
 
The North remembers.

With the prerequisite Game of Thrones joke done, it's good to see a look at Romanos establishing his domain in what would have become the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia in our world line. The northern Arcadian borderlands offer an interesting contrast to both the Roman heartlands around Constantinople and the allied Purepecha state to the south.

Finally, I can't wait for the Roman warship named after the Haida people setting her enemies on fire. Traditions must be upheld. Let loose the Roman Canadians XD
 
A Toast for Prince Romanos

Background

Prince Romanos is a historical figure, without a doubt, yet is the subject of a multitude of tall tales and drinking songs. Perhaps the most popular of these songs, especially in more southern regions is "A Toast for Prince Romanos"[1]. A common song from the Byzantinne navy that can be heard in port bars, far outside of the continent of Elysium, "A Toast for Prince Romanos" is often the first drinking song heard by non-native speakers of Elysium Greek because of the ease of translation, catchy beat, and easy rhymes[2]. A large facet of the spread of this song is due to the prevalence of Northern Byzantinians in the Elysium military service, even to the present day[3].

1. From A Statistical Analysis of Byzantine music, Constantinople Institute of Fine Arts, pgs. 35-37.
2. See also, A musicological analysis of "A Toast to Prince Romanos", for a more in-depth look into these factors.
3. See also, Statistical Inequalities and Underserviced Minorities in the Byzantine Empire, pg. 102

Lyrics

Doomed to die and still survived
Learned to fish and learned to thrive

We! We! the humble few
The bold, the brave, the northern true
We! We! we raise a glass
A toast for Prince Romanos

Exiled prince, forgotten son. Working hard til day is done
Leading us with his dynasty. Building boats and sailing free

We! We! the humble few
The bold, the brave, the northern true
We! We! we raise a glass
A toast for Prince Romanos

Explorer, builder, developer he, conquer of the northern sea.
Raising us cold and raising us free, his name was Prince Romanos.

We! We! the humble few
The bold, the brave, the northern true
We! We! we raise a glass
A toast for Prince Romanos
 
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Two rivers in Washington state seem to be the most likely candidates to me:

1) The Columbia River, with the location of the town/village/settlement really sounding like Longview/Kelso for the nearest to the mouth of the river, or if further upstream Vancouver/Portland.

2) The Chehalis River, and the settlement being where Aberdeen is currently.
 
I'm guessing they are on the Columbia river as that is the first major river they would have encountered going north.

It will be interesting to see if as the region develops if it will cultivate the same reputation for wine it did in our timeline. The Willamette Valley soil adds a unique flavor to wine grown in the region and if they can develop/import grapes that work in the less Mediterranean climate. It would add another trade good and might incentivize the development of monasteries or act as the basis for growth in inland towns.
 
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Oh. Oh no. Romanos decides to embark on falconry as a hobby, but instead of a normal falcon, on a whim he somehow manages to weaponize those weird geese things that fly out of the North when winter approaches....

Fear the Arcadian Cobra Chicken indeed.
 
The North remembers.

With the prerequisite Game of Thrones joke done, it's good to see a look at Romanos establishing his domain in what would have become the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia in our world line. The northern Arcadian borderlands offer an interesting contrast to both the Roman heartlands around Constantinople and the allied Purepecha state to the south.

Finally, I can't wait for the Roman warship named after the Haida people setting her enemies on fire. Traditions must be upheld. Let loose the Roman Canadians XD
Agreed.

Sounds like he landed on the Columbia. Good call for building big there. Although once he explores further North and hits Puget Sound? Oh wow, is there going to be a population explosion. Pre-industrial Puget Sound and the Strait of Juan de Fuca are downright BS rich in timber, firs, fish, and if you know where to look, gold/silver (there are dozens of gold/silver mines around Mt. Baker, along with the 'Monte Christo' mines out past Olso & Granite Falls). To say nothing of how anything south of Whidbey Island is more or less part of four separate but VERY closely packed, and hilariously well protected, weather harbors for shipping that has virtually no equal on the west coast (OTL's Everett, Seattle, Bremerton, and Tacoma)
 
4. This tribe, the Haida, would be one of the more interesting encounters for the northern Romans. Certainly, one of the most consolidated and relatively advanced tribes of the area. Initial relations would shape much of the actions of Romanos' realm, in the future.

As soon as I saw "Romans found nothing to the north", I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. Haida slaving fleets? No wonder why these lands are empty, the locals are real good at hiding.
 
Any chance of getting a map of what the Romans form;y control? Even if it's just a vague line drawn in MS Paint.
Also, it'll be interesting to see if there are any comparisons drawn between the Haida and the Vikings. Haida Varangian guard, anyone?
 
Any chance of getting a map of what the Romans form;y control? Even if it's just a vague line drawn in MS Paint.
Also, it'll be interesting to see if there are any comparisons drawn between the Haida and the Vikings. Haida Varangian guard, anyone?
Vikings were there for your loot and only the occasional slave raid for 'thralls'. That and you actually had the chance of earning your freedom at any time depending on what you did and/or whom your master was.
If the Haida showed up, they were there for YOU specifically, and generally just burnt to the ground everything you owned. And once you were a slave, you STAYED a slave.

So from that perspective, Vikings are 'nicer' Haida.
 
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