Indeed, excellent against unarmoured or soft armoured targets. Against chain mail or lamellar armour? Less than ideal - although the macuahuitl would still be useful as a regular club in those situations.
Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
- Timeline
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Dont underestimate the power of non-metal weaponry and quilted armor. The latter has been used for thousands of years for a reason.I think these chaps will be unimpressed by these fellas.
Doesn't really seem all that fair does it.
There was more than just carving out hearts on top of the temple. There was also the arrow sacrifice, where the victim was tied to a pole and shot full of arrows. For Xipe Totec, there was the sacrifice where the victim was flayed from the back, their skin cut off of their bodies with one cut from the head to the buttocks and then cut away from the living victim. This was so that people could wear the still wet skins, wander the cities, and beg for alms on his holiday.
How bad it actually got depends on who you listen to and how much you take what they say as gospel truth. Certainly there was human sacrifice, and the various rituals. But there is speculation that some of the more egregious stuff was made up to help justify the invasion and present the Spanish crown with a fait accompli.
However the above I think we have the most evidence for actually occuring. For example, flaying the skin from the still-living victim and wearing it is mentioned as happening in the Aztec origin myths. They did it to a princess who was sent to be a bride to stop feuding.
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Well yeah, they did that to. Mayans, while not described as having human sacrifices as massive as the Aztecs did, still practiced a variety of human sacrificial methods. Though, it should be kept in mind that a lot of the sacrifices we know for sure were sacrifices were from around the time that their civilization was crumbling due to the drought and the surrounding environmental collapse. In some water caves you can actually chart out the Mayan's desperation from the type of human sacrifices, with them starting out with the elderly and infirm, then trying adults, then teens, and then finally infants. They were trying everything they could think of to appease their gods all the way up till the end.
Its also closely tied to their god of spring, who is often known as the flayed one.
There is a reason why he has an extra pair of hands, and it's because they aren't his
The idea being that the new plant growth of spring was a "new skin" the god wore each year. His priests often wore flayed skins for his ceremonies and holy days.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I am of the opinion that anyone who feels the need to embellish on the stuff that the Aztecs for sure got up to, with documentation from the Aztecs themselves, must not be very smart to begin with. While what Cortez did could not have happened to a nicer people, he was still a crook and a bad person.
The Spanish sent him to set up trade relations with the Aztecs. He was not there to conquer, and he had to raise a mercenary army and burn the boats behind them. If the Aztecs ever managed to swing the momentum against him, the Spanish would likely abandon him to his fate. This would not be a nice fate. The Spaniards would likely be somewhat aware of this.
He also enslaved all the natives and forced them to work in inhumane conditions razing their own city so he could build Mexico City atop the rubble. There was 80% fatality between the diseases, the working conditions, and the treatment of the Spanish governors and nobles send to administrate the colony. This was in Tenochtitlan alone, it was probably worse out in the countryside.
I dont know how the Romans would treat Tenochtitlan. At the very least, I can see heads and spikes in the future for the priests if nothing else. Their behavior would be too egregious and offensive to the Romans and their subjects for them to be able to turn a blind eye, especially in conquered territory.
But, Tenochtitlan is so freaking big, once they killed off all the priests, and sent Orthodox Priests to take their place, I cannot see Tenochtitlan and its people NOT taking a place of prominence among the Romans. Around this time period, the city rivals many European cities in size. The local craftsmen, merchants, and what nobility survive the purge would probably have a LOT of pull within the Roman Empire.
The Spanish sent him to set up trade relations with the Aztecs. He was not there to conquer, and he had to raise a mercenary army and burn the boats behind them. If the Aztecs ever managed to swing the momentum against him, the Spanish would likely abandon him to his fate. This would not be a nice fate. The Spaniards would likely be somewhat aware of this.
He also enslaved all the natives and forced them to work in inhumane conditions razing their own city so he could build Mexico City atop the rubble. There was 80% fatality between the diseases, the working conditions, and the treatment of the Spanish governors and nobles send to administrate the colony. This was in Tenochtitlan alone, it was probably worse out in the countryside.
I dont know how the Romans would treat Tenochtitlan. At the very least, I can see heads and spikes in the future for the priests if nothing else. Their behavior would be too egregious and offensive to the Romans and their subjects for them to be able to turn a blind eye, especially in conquered territory.
But, Tenochtitlan is so freaking big, once they killed off all the priests, and sent Orthodox Priests to take their place, I cannot see Tenochtitlan and its people NOT taking a place of prominence among the Romans. Around this time period, the city rivals many European cities in size. The local craftsmen, merchants, and what nobility survive the purge would probably have a LOT of pull within the Roman Empire.
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CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Of course, that's assuming the Romans actually go out and conquer the Aztecs, which I don't see happening before the Spanish get there. As appalling as the Aztec priesthood's behavior would be to them, the on-paper manpower needs of conquering such a state would be flatly terrifying, especially for a Roman Empire rapidly expanding into a frontier that for all they know is going to run into another Aztec-sized power sooner or later.
Backing some of their local rivals and going for a regime change to something more palatable, on the other hand...
Backing some of their local rivals and going for a regime change to something more palatable, on the other hand...
I arleady say that,but author should use Tarasca indians.They use bronze weapons,and usually beat Aztecs,becouse they fought to kill,not take alive enemy.
They were only tribe who never pay Aztec anything.
Conquistators in OTL burned their king alive,but later remnants was saved by monks and their descendents live to our days.Better then indian in USA.
They were only tribe who never pay Aztec anything.
Conquistators in OTL burned their king alive,but later remnants was saved by monks and their descendents live to our days.Better then indian in USA.
Chapter 8.2
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Chapter 8.2
The Last Expedition of Angelo Cappelli
The Last Expedition of Angelo Cappelli
In many ways, the final voyage of the legendary Cappelli was a turning point in Roman history. His previous expeditions had caught the eye of Emperors Constantine and Alexios, true. They had, furthermore, discovered and mapped much of the coast of Arcadia. Even the port of Dragases, second only to Constantinople herself in the modern day, was found by Cappelli and his intrepid crews. These early expeditions would eventually be expanded upon by future men, who truly mapped the coast and explored inland. Who discovered the Tawantinsuyu realm, far to the south of any of Cappelli's voyages. [1]
And yet, it is Cappelli who is most remembered. He was, after all, the man who introduced Rome to the first great civilization of Arcadia they would encounter. The man who came home with tales of practices that would turn the stomach of the worst criminal in Constantinople. Cappelli would bring Alexios evidence of what, to any good Christian, could only be called worshipers of the Devil. That he also met some of the firmest allies of Rome in Arcadia is typically overshadowed by this fact...
-Lecture on Early Roman Expansion, Royal University of Constantinople, 1842
When he departed on what would become his final voyage, Angelo Cappelli was already an old man. Many a man would have retired and lived the rest of their life at home, or as a humble fisherman. Cappelli was not most men. Ever since his first voyage in 1468, he had been the adventurous sort. He had pushed his men and his Salamis further and further from Constantinople, each and every time. His voyages became the stuff of maritime legend. The Emperor himself took notice, generally paying Cappelli handsomely for each discovery he made. According to legend, Cappelli turned him down every time.
Or attempting to, at least. One didn't say 'no' to the Emperor of the Romans, even if they lived for the adventure and not the gold.
Even so, according to his own journals, Cappelli was feeling his age. In the year 1498, he set out on what even he described as his 'last great journey'. He helmed the Salamis down the coast of Arcadia, past landmarks he had discovered. Past little settlements of Romans- generally of Italian descent -that had sprung up along his path. It was only when his ship moved past the peninsula at the extreme south of Arcadia[2], and began moving towards the unfamiliar lands beyond, that his crew realized exactly what was happening. Cappelli was returning to the place that had taunted his dreams. To the lands of what would soon be known as the Mexica.
Ever since his first voyage to these lands, Cappelli had been curious about the people he had seen in the distance. They had been dressed differently and behaved far from what he had come to expect. Neither the Ohlone nor the various other Natives that he had encountered in his travels looked quite like them. He had been quite curious to meet them, only choosing to avoid it out of a genuine worry that he would be unable to return to Rome. In those heady days of his youth, the routes south from Constantinople were untread and unfamiliar. He could not say for sure he knew the way home, if he were to run low on supplies.
It was only natural, then, that he had not landed. Equally, it was only natural that he would crave returning to learn more about these people. And so he did, landing near where he had first seen the strange Natives.
Cappelli would have known none of this, at the time. His memoirs report the man barking at him in a language that resembled nothing he had heard before. None of the Native tongues of Arcadia bore any resemblance to it, and Cappelli was too well-traveled to expect it to resemble Greek or Italian or Turkish. Having picked up a few languages in his own travels, he attempted to communicate back. Neither side could understand the other, no matter which language was used.
It was, in his own words, 'out of frustration at my inability to communicate' that Cappelli finally switched to just Greek and began explaining as if he were talking to a child.
Perhaps, with the benefit of hindsight, Rome can consider herself lucky that this only served to amuse the ocēlōtl. He began doing much the same in his own tongue, the Nahuatl language of the Aztec. Over what is reported to be hours of dialogue on the beach, exposed to the hot sun and harsh Pacific wind, the two men began to understand each other enough to create a dialogue. Cappelli wrote that the Natives dropped their hostile posture and began to excitedly bring the Romans inland, towards what would later be realized was little more than a small colony of sorts. A far-flung part of the Aztec Empire that mattered little, save for being on the frontier of the known world.[3]
A contemporary Roman painting of an Aztec city. Note the ominous cloud cover.
Even this far from the heart of their civilization, the Aztec had constructed a small pyramid. Despite the differences in design, the Romans stared at what seemed something out of Egypt. The many stone buildings, and the pyramid itself, served to confirm at least one theory. That these Aztec were far, far more advanced than any other Native in Arcadia. Unfortunately, the outward signs of civilized society only served to hide the dark secrets of the Aztec. Cappelli would write of being taken towards the pyramid, where a chieftain- in his own words -greeted him. He had gained enough understanding of Nahuatl to understand most of what was being said, if only because it was being said slowly.
"You will wait for the sacrifice in the new day, honored guests."
Cappelli translated for his crew, all of whom would recount feeling unnerved by those words. Even when given guest quarters that wouldn't have been out of place in the less-developed parts of Constantinople herself. Cappelli recorded that he assumed it would be an animal sacrifice of some kind. It was not unheard of, even in Rome, for something of that nature to happen. At least in records of the ancient Greek world, or even the old days of Rome, before Christ and the first Constantine. Perhaps that was why their impromptu guide wore the head of a large cat. It had been a sacrifice and he was simply wearing it as a mark of pride. Stranger things had happened.
Unfortunately, it would not prove to be that simple. No matter how much the Romans may have wished it to be so.
With the coming of a new day, they would be roused from their quarters and brought back to the pyramid. Cappelli had spent the night in long discussion with the ocēlōtl and had more or less a working knowledge of the Nahuatl language. Enough to communicate what he needed, at least, as he was brought with his men to the foot of the pyramid. There, they would be stopped, as obvious priests carried...a bound man towards the altar at the top.
The horror that every member of Cappelli's crew felt at that sight is evident in they way they later wrote of it. Words that are not fit for print. Anger and frustration. Helplessness, as they watched the man pulled upon a stone altar. A priest walked towards him, speaking words that even Cappelli only barely understood. The workmanlike understanding he had of the language failed him, with his mind focused on the actions before him. Horror rushed through the Romans, when the priest was given a stone knife. He brought it down upon the man, blood flowing from his body.
Cappelli would write of how some of his men turned away, unable to watch. He never broke eye contact. According to his memoirs, the explorer watched as the priest cut the man's still-beating heart from his chest, holding it to the sky. Blood poured from his hand and down the steps of the temple. Soon to be joined by the body of the sacrifice, coming to a halt right before the Romans and the ocēlōtl. A man who, in slow terms so that Cappelli understood, explained that- as honored guests -they were the ones the sacrifice had been made for. That if they preferred, they could consume the flesh to become more valued in the eyes of the gods.[4]
The Romans were, understandably, horrified at the very thought. Cappelli was barely able to explain that they would need to return to their ship, to gather the rest of the crew for such an 'honor'. The ocēlōtl seemed to understand, and called over his own escort for the Romans.
They would, as it turned out, never reach the ship.
Cappelli records the later events with a much steadier hand and less worry in his words. As the Romans were 'escorted' back to their ship, the party was ambushed by warriors dressed differently to the Aztec. For all that they wielded similarly primitive- yet made of metal -weapons, these men shouted in another unrelated language. The two groups of Natives fought against one another, while the Romans stayed out of the fighting as best they could. One man was wounded by an Aztec, though Cappelli held his men in good order, their own swords raised to ward off any attack. Fortunately, the newcomers seemed to only be interested in fighting the Aztec.
After slaughtering those men to the last, the apparent leader of the newcomers spoke in halting Nahuatl. Explaining that he was from an enemy of the Aztec and that he believed the Romans may also be enemies of the Aztec. If he had seen the sacrifice or had it reported to him is lost to history, as is his name. However, Cappelli was, at this point...eager for any ally. Rome would never stand for what he had seen, and he knew that. He could not hope to convince Alexios, no matter how well-mannered the Emperor was, to not do something about what he had seen. And yet, the Roman Empire was still recovering. Even so many years later, it could not hope to project power so far from Elysium and the City.
However, if there were already an enemy of the Aztec...that changed things. Cappelli asked, in his own halting Nahuatl, if this man's religion required sacrifice like he had seen the Aztec do. The recorded reaction could be summed up as complete and utter disgust at the idea. While it was difficult to get by with two men speaking a language not their own, it was made clear that the sacrifice of his people was different from the sacrifice of the Aztec. Exactly how different? That was difficult to say.
Cappelli would recall being concerned that he was allying himself with a culture just as demonic as the Aztec had shown themselves.
In the end, however, he agreed to take some of these men back to his ship, and from there to Constantinople. It was difficult to explain the majesty of the City, but he got his point across. The leader of these strange men was quite eager to see it himself. Mostly to get an edge on the Aztec, it must be said. Even so, despite lingering worries, Cappelli would bring these men to Alexios. No one knew, at that moment, how important the PIréchecua Tzintzuntzáni [5] would become to the Romans.
1. The story of the Tawantinsuyu and the Roman Empire is a story that requires many books to properly tell. For the relations between the two states, and their relations to the Europeans encroaching on their territory.
2. At the time, 'Arcadia' simply referred to what is now generally considered Elysium. It was only later, when more land was discovered, that the name came to refer to the entire continent.
3. The Aztec were more than aware of the world around them. However, to a non-seafaring society, the vastness of the Pacific must have seemed impossible to comprehend.
4. In certain cases, humans sacrificed to Huitzilopochtli would be ritually cannibalized by the warrior who provided the sacrifice. Cappelli's reports may, or may not, be accurate in the implication that the local priesthood offered the sacrifice in this manner. Certainly, the Roman state was outraged by even the implication of this.
5. In the Purépecha language, this refers to the state at the time of contact: the simply named, 'Lands of Tzintzuntzan'. Tzintzuntzan being the capital of the Purépecha society.
AN: Apologies on the wait, for this one. I tried to make it a bit longer to compensate somewhat. It was hard to get this just right, so it may not be quite up to standard on that. But, as I was writing it, this seemed to work the best. As previously mentioned, this is a multi-parter. The first part was Alexios' early reign, the middle was Cappelli, and the next will be the aftermath of his voyage. Which, for context, will return to Constantinople around the middle of 1499. We're still well before Cortez shows up...but how quickly, really, could the Romans even send envoys to Tarascan, let alone support them?
Hmmm
(also, Tarascan is not unique in Mesoamerica, other than speaking a completely unrelated language to most. They also did human sacrifice, albeit to a far lesser degree than the Aztec and they were clearly much less attached to it by how quickly they accepted missionaries after Cortez smacked the Aztec down.
Also, also: Tarascan is not likely to be the end-name of their state. Considering the Roman influence and the continued dominance of their own Purépecha language)
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
The Tarascans are definitely going to quietly shelve what little human sacrifice they already perform once they grok just how badly the Romans react to it. Probably completely worth it, in their eyes.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Good to see this back.
As a Canadian I feel emotionally compelled to obsess over the fate of Vancouver Island, but it's honestly irrelevant right now. The start of Aztec conflict is interesting.
In this timeline Japanese imperialism could go completely differently, matched against Roman imperialism, no Idea how this would affect whatever world wars they have. It's way way to soon to guess.
As a Canadian I feel emotionally compelled to obsess over the fate of Vancouver Island, but it's honestly irrelevant right now. The start of Aztec conflict is interesting.
In this timeline Japanese imperialism could go completely differently, matched against Roman imperialism, no Idea how this would affect whatever world wars they have. It's way way to soon to guess.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
If i recall weren't the Tarascans the only major civilization in the Americas that worked out bronze weapon smithing? I know a lot of civilizations had general metallurgy due to all the gold and silver but I believe the Tarascans were the only ones to generally weaponize it.
Edit: Hey @Skywalker_T-65 turns out this is all a misconception. The Tarascans did not have metal weaponry. Their effectiveness in battle came from fighting style(to kill not capture for sacrifice like the Aztecs), spy networks, and using bows while everyone else used atl-atls. All you'd really need to do to fix it is nix the mention of metal weaponry and maybe mention some of them having bows.
Edit: Hey @Skywalker_T-65 turns out this is all a misconception. The Tarascans did not have metal weaponry. Their effectiveness in battle came from fighting style(to kill not capture for sacrifice like the Aztecs), spy networks, and using bows while everyone else used atl-atls. All you'd really need to do to fix it is nix the mention of metal weaponry and maybe mention some of them having bows.
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nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
But they didn't have bronze weapons. They did however have bows which greatly outrange atl-atls.
- Location
- Amsterdam
Liking this so far! Especially since I had been playing around with a similar idea in my mind myself.
It looks like the Romans are going to develop their first alliance in this new world, and this will have major butterflies on it's own.
And a little bit of a throwback question: Is the patriarchate of Qusqu the patriarchate of a christianized Inca Empire?
It looks like the Romans are going to develop their first alliance in this new world, and this will have major butterflies on it's own.
And a little bit of a throwback question: Is the patriarchate of Qusqu the patriarchate of a christianized Inca Empire?
As far as i knew,Tarascan had bronze weapons,but not good bows.Nobody there had good bows,except some tribes from Sonora dessert,which later good spaniards a lot of troubles.
And winning over Aztec was more thanks to fighting to kill,not weapons - some city who later allied with spaniards beat Aztec without bronze,becouse they fought to kill.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
I mean a historian focused on mesoamerican archaeology seems to disagree on the bronze weaponry bit. And I never disagreed with the fought to kill part.
Thanks.I read about bronze weapons among Tarascan,but forget source.In book "Postwatch:the redemption of Christhopher Columbus" by Orson Card Tarascan used bronze weapon - but that book was alternate history,not science.Considering that thread belong to author,he should decide what kind of weapons among Tarascan his story need.
I read in memories of some Cortez soldier,that their native supporters made copper arrowheads for crossbows - but i
forget,which tribe did it.They also mead copper spearheads for themselves.
About sacrifises - Aztecs really belived in end of the world,so they made a lot of them.Others,like Tarascans,rather made them when they need rain,or something.So - they should have no problems with abadonning that practice.
[/QUOTE]
I read in memories of some Cortez soldier,that their native supporters made copper arrowheads for crossbows - but i
forget,which tribe did it.They also mead copper spearheads for themselves.
About sacrifises - Aztecs really belived in end of the world,so they made a lot of them.Others,like Tarascans,rather made them when they need rain,or something.So - they should have no problems with abadonning that practice.
[/QUOTE]
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DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Catching up on this rn but this makes me feel things. Thanks @Skywalker_T-65
Edit: FUCK THEYRE ALL GOOD AMD I LOVE ALL THREE OF THEM
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Chapter 8.3
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Chapter 8.3
The Lands of the Purépecha
The Lands of the Purépecha
To understand the conflicts between the Roman and Aztec states, it is necessary to understand the Purépecha state as well. Despite having somewhat similar religious beliefs as the Aztec- if to nowhere near the same brutal level -the Purépecha were a society that put more stock in human life. The Aztec sacrificed many, many people even in times of prosperity. In times of strife or collapse, the orgy of bloodshed would disgust many, including their neighbors. After all, the Aztec would raid their neighbors for those sacrifices. The Purépecha were different. True, they also had religious sacrifice. However, they did not send raids to capture their enemies for sacrifice. A Purépecha warrior was one who killed his enemy. He was not honored at home for non-lethal wounds and capturing his enemy, as the Aztec did. Was it any wonder that the Purépecha were slowly assimilating the minorities within their Kingdom?
The Aztec would leave other states 'independent' as tributaries. They would raid these states periodically, for sacrifices and tribute. The Purépecha took their neighbors into their own state, and gradually assimilated them into the greater Kingdom. Furthermore, as the Romans would soon discover, they would use this greater population to their great advantage in warfare...
--"Purépecha State in Pre-Contact Times" Lecture at the Imperial University, Constantinople
These differences must have seemed quite stark, indeed, to the Romans who first visited these lands. On the one hand, the Purépecha were every bit as pagan as the Aztec. On the other hand, their religion was dramatically different. Furthermore, perhaps to gain the aid of the Romans, the Purépecha proved remarkably willing to listen to the word of Priests and to- if not completely remove it -at least keep the sacrifices out of sight. Compared to the Aztec, whom had sacrificed for the good will of the Romans, it must have been a relief. This is not to say that sacrifice was completely omitted. The sacrifices of the skin were still more common than later histories would like to admit, even if these were rarely fatal. This was just one example.
However, directly from the cazonci[2] himself, orders had been given to be as open to the visitors as possible. The return of the envoys to Constantinople had presented the Purépecha people with the one thing they had truly needed. A way to finally defeat the Aztec enemy and secure their home.
For the Purépecha, few things were more important. The culture of their state had long been dominated by the conflict with the Aztec to the south. It had forced a society to become one of the few in this part of the world that was a true state in the European sense. Many of their neighbors, the Aztec among them, had porous borders and cared less about delineated areas of control. A tribe would have a homeland and, perhaps, outposts on the frontier. However, these were not truly states in a sense that someone from Constantinople would believe. The difference in the case of the Purépecha came down, largely, to their conflicts with the Aztec and the more nomadic peoples to the North. While their social stratification- multiple layers of society were common -was not unique, the governmental organization was. A key note to make is in borders, as mentioned above.
To many states in the region, there was no real central authority. Nor were there proper borders. A single city would often control much land around the city, perhaps even other settlements. However, these were often as not very weak claims. Even the Aztec, for all that contemporary Romans would portray them as an 'Empire' were much more a loose confederation. Their control of the 'Empire' was driven primarily by client kingdoms and cities, tributaries more than integrated societies. It would be foolish to assume this was because the Aztec were 'primitive', of course. In many ways, they were quite advanced, culturally.
The Aztec religion put much on the conquest of other states, and the taking of prisoners in battles. With the Purépecha a tough enemy, the Aztec could rely much more on their vassals and other weaker states for prisoners. Tribute was expected, and if it was not given, the Aztec would gladly march in to take it back. This provided both a reason for loose- and thus easy -control over their lands, and a common way to keep sacrifices. The Tlaxcala were a common victim of this. [3]
With this in mind, the difference in the Purépecha came from their conflict with the Aztec in some ways, and in their assimilation of smaller groups in others. In the first case, they were a state that had to develop a proper system of borders. Aztec raids were common and the Purépecha had to constantly fight these incursions. Warfare between them and the Aztec flared, off and on, for much of their respective histories. As a result the Purépecha heavily fortified their border with the lands of the Aztec. Natives of different tribes were allowed to stay in this land, or even return to it had they been moved, if they agreed to defend it. Fortified settlements, patrols and the odd raid into Aztec lands created a firm border quite unlike anything to the south of the Purépecha. It was, perhaps, the first proper border in the lands of the Mexica. A clear mark of where the Aztec ended, and their enemy began.
This constant conflict fueled more than just the creation of this border, however.
As previously mentioned, the Purépecha leadership saw the Romans as a way to truly end the conflict with the Aztec. They were more familiar with metal working than most, even if it was primarily limited to copper and precious metals such as gold. It was still very possible for the Purépecha to see the Romans and their steel armor and weapons- though to the Purépecha it appeared as iron -as a counter to the Aztec. These were a people who understood warfare, as it were. The Aztec saw conflict as a means to assert their power and gain sacrifices, while also moving up in their society. The Purépecha saw warfare as a means of expansion and consolidation. Their warriors fought to kill, not to capture, and this was the key difference. Many an Aztec raid would be pushed back, even if the Purépecha would then have to rebuild what was lost. It was mostly the numbers of the Aztec that prevented the Purépecha from conquering their lands.
The Romans, with their weapons and armor, must have seemed a gift from their gods. A strong core that could fight the Aztec much better than a Purépecha warrior. Not that the native men were less skilled or worse warriors, in many cases, but due primarily to the armor. A Roman could much more likely survive conflict with an Aztec warrior and keep fighting. This was, with no exaggeration, worth its weight in gold to the Purépecha.
It could, in many ways, be compared to what the Romans were doing in Elysium[4]. Or, perhaps, a European state of multiple cultures. This latter comparison would likely appeal more to the Romans, as the Purépecha did lack the religious imperative of the Romans. They assimilated, but they did not nurture in the same way. Even so, compared to many ethnostates, it was quite efficient and well-crafted. A society that could absorb neighbors into the whole, while remaining united. It was, after all, these minorities who often bore the brunt of the border conflicts with the Aztec.
Supporting these efforts and the expansion of the Purépecha state in general, was a functioning bureaucracy. Nobles may have been the highest level, however, there were those who operated beneath them. The state was governed by this bureaucracy of nobles and lords, connecting the various city states into the greater Purépecha network. It was this system that allowed for the centralization that set it apart from the Aztec. It was also, arguably, what made it possible to cooperate with the Romans. Inserting another new group was hardly an issue, as it may have been for other tribes.
When Alexios would send troops to support the Purépecha, this would prove quite useful indeed.
1. The Purépecha language is an isolate. It has no connection to any of the other languages in its region, or indeed, outside its region. Even now, it is nearly impossible for Roman or other historians to identify just where it originated.
2. The cazonci was the Purépecha equivalent to a King or Emperor. Much as in Europe, the title passed from father to son. At the time of contact with the Romans, this title was held by Zuangua, a man who had fought the Aztec many times.
3. The Tlaxcala people were a theoretically independent state in the middle of the Aztec 'empire'. They were a common target of the Aztec, and had the Romans come from the Atlantic, may have proven allies against the Aztec in much the same manner as the Purépecha became. However, the Romans would not be the first outsiders to contact these people.
4. Superficial similarities aside, the Romans generally- generally -were more benevolent in their integration of other societies. The Romans were concerned with nurturing and converting, the Purépecha with tribute and manpower. Even so, however superficial it may have been, this similarity did make contact easier between the two groups.
This one was difficult, I'll admit. Mostly because the Purépecha/Tarascan are hardly a well-studied group. Even nowadays, most of the attention still goes to the Aztec and the Maya (perhaps more the Maya, now, with those LIDAR expeditions and exploration of new cities). What relatively little documentation there is, is often going to be in Spanish. Which I don't speak a word of, thank you American education system.
(you see, I can say that, since I'm a certified teacher in that system
)Either way, I wanted to cover the Purépecha a bit before we cross over to Alexios and his reaction to their offer of aid in regards to the Aztec. They're really a fascinating group in a lot of ways, even with what little I can easily find online. And they'll be a very important group moving forward, as well, so it is important to at least have something of a foundation. I can cover other bits in more detail later, as I find more and we cover them more.
- Location
- Philippines
Caught up~ Those were great updates, Sky.
The Purepecha are really under-represented in research despite their contributions to the modern Mexican state and culture. A brief browse (Wiki because it's convenient and mainly for bulli purposes) showed that a semi-mythical princess, Erendira, led a rebellion against the Spanish. Centuries down the line, Lazaro Cardenas (arguably Mexico's most popular President of the 20th century) co-opted her story and elevated her from regional figure to national renown as a counter to La Malinche, the slave translator of Cortes.
Erendira was princess from 1509-1519. While the Romans arrived in 1453, decades before her birth, one can argue that there is a precedence for feisty Purepecha princesses, who may or may not be a redhead (surprisingly plenty of redheads in Central America, and of the metallic red hue, too).
Anyway, I enjoyed the latest updates and look forward to the next installment ^_^
The Purepecha are really under-represented in research despite their contributions to the modern Mexican state and culture. A brief browse (Wiki because it's convenient and mainly for bulli purposes) showed that a semi-mythical princess, Erendira, led a rebellion against the Spanish. Centuries down the line, Lazaro Cardenas (arguably Mexico's most popular President of the 20th century) co-opted her story and elevated her from regional figure to national renown as a counter to La Malinche, the slave translator of Cortes.
Erendira was princess from 1509-1519. While the Romans arrived in 1453, decades before her birth, one can argue that there is a precedence for feisty Purepecha princesses, who may or may not be a redhead (surprisingly plenty of redheads in Central America, and of the metallic red hue, too).
And as far as I know, Alexios is single.
Like I said, my research was bulli-oriented >:3c
Like I said, my research was bulli-oriented >:3c
Anyway, I enjoyed the latest updates and look forward to the next installment ^_^
- Location
- Amsterdam
Good way to deal with the discussion on Purépecha mettalurgy. An excellent transitionary chapter.
Thanks for chapter. In OTL they were massacred by group of conquistadors acting on their own/ Cortez was absent, trying to conqer something/ , their king murdered. But later monks saved remnants, and their descendents lived to our times.
Better then indians in USA, but still they were crushed.
In that story, they could remain as important Roman vassals. And even if Cortez would want to conqer them, he simply would have no manpower to do so.
Please continue.
P.S i think, that Tlaxcallans made copper spearheads, but i could be wrong. I remember who wrote about that - Bernal dias de Castilla. Very interesting memories.
Better then indians in USA, but still they were crushed.
In that story, they could remain as important Roman vassals. And even if Cortez would want to conqer them, he simply would have no manpower to do so.
Please continue.
P.S i think, that Tlaxcallans made copper spearheads, but i could be wrong. I remember who wrote about that - Bernal dias de Castilla. Very interesting memories.
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Chapter 8.4
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Chapter 8.4
Alexios' Decision
Alexios' Decision
....In the end, it should come as little surprise that Alexios found himself supporting the Purépecha. They were hardly what one could call 'Good Christians', even compared to the Ohlone and other Elysian natives. However, what made them different from the Devil Worshiping Aztecs- as Roman propaganda would term them -was that the Purépecha were entirely willing to acquiesce to Roman requests. Perhaps it was out of a desire for an ally against the Aztec, especially one so advanced. Perhaps it was legitimate feelings of awe from those who visited the City and saw its wonders. The Sophia, with its massive dome and soaring arches. The Theodosian Walls, seemingly impossible to breach. All of it, of course, transported from a land so far away that the Purépecha could hardly comprehend the distances involved. [1]
Regardless of the true reason, the Purépecha agreed to certain requests. That Roman missionaries be allowed to preach in their lands, with full protection of the Cazonci. That human sacrifice, at absolute minimum, be halted. That the Purépecha help the Romans explore the area around their lands and provide trade in valuable materials. Even that the Romans be allowed their share of loot from captured Aztec settlements. These were just some of the requests, and save for the sacrifice, it was easy to accept. That choice was more difficult...however, for the Purépecha, it was easier than most...
---'From Elysium to Tenochtitlan: Early Roman Exploration', 1974
So go the words of Shanarani, youngest daughter of the Cazonci. [2] Sent by her father as the second wave of Purépecha to visit Constantinople, ostensibly to learn more of the Romans and their culture. It is generally accepted that the Purépecha ruler wanted to send someone who could be seen as 'proper' by the Romans, while not being any risk to his own position or dynasty should something go wrong. In this regard, it made perfect sense to send a young daughter who would never amount to anything important at home. Perhaps the wife of a noble. He may have underestimated how curious Shanarani truly was.
Regardless, the 'Princess'- if only for lack of a proper term -and her escort intended one thing and one thing only. To enlist aid from the Romans in their neverending war with the Aztec. To the Purépecha, it was a matter of national security. They could beat the Aztec back, but never truly defeat them. If the Aztec ever fought like the Purépecha themselves, it could be a dangerous situation for the border regions. Perhaps for the state itself. Even if that remained highly unlikely, it was still a fact that the Purépecha would give a lot for a chance to truly defeat the Aztec and remove their chief rival in their homeland. Many states would do the same, including the Romans.
Of course, for the Romans, it was a different case in regards to the Aztec. Many were disgusted by what they had learned of that culture. Perhaps none more so than Alexios himself, the Emperor visibly enraged when the first Purépecha had returned with Cappelli and stories of the Aztec. It hardly mattered that no Romans had died on the expedition, nor been in any real danger from the Aztec. The very idea of human sacrifice being used for something so petty as 'good will to visitors' was more than enough to stoke the fires of rage in the aging Emperor. He is on record as stating that if it had been his uncle, Constantine would have dropped everything to fight the Aztec. Few doubted those words, especially those who had known the legendary Emperor on a personal level.
Alexios...Alexios was, in many ways, not his uncle. He would not compromise Rome for the chance at fighting the Aztecs, the closest to literal Devil Worshipers that any Roman had ever seen. [3]
This was not to say that Alexios would ignore the Aztec, naturally. It would have been impossible at any rate, because of the fact that the Aztec could eventually become a threat to Roman expansion in Arcadia. The idea of such a powerful polity of people who would naturally come into conflict with the Romans brought forth uncomfortable memories. Ancient Emperors had ignored the threat of the Arabs and the Turks until much, much too late. Even with the mountains shielding Constantinople herself, Alexios could hardly forget about that fact. Was it truly worthwhile to turn away the hand of a potential- if questionable -ally in favor of ignoring a future threat? The answer was self-evident, in many ways. There would be no more ignorance, no more pushing a threat into the future, in the hopes it may weaken another.
If it were impossible to completely ignore the Aztec, from righteous anger and political considerations alike, the question then arose. Exactly how would Alexios deal with the Aztec? And, for that matter, work with the Purépecha? These were not easy questions for the Emperor to answer. Roman combat capability had yet to truly recover from the lows of the last few years in Europe. The reforms of men such as Giustiniani had done much to improve the quality of Roman men at arms. However, be they Greek or Turk or Italian, there were few enough soldiers to patrol Roman lands. Alexios' efforts to explore and expand had stretched the resources of the Empire more than he may have intended. There had been a population boom of almost unheard of levels after the arrival in Elysium, yes. The baby boom to end all baby booms, as some called it, had drastically extended the pool of manpower. However, even with that, the Romans could hardly spare more than a few hundred men from the needs of keeping far-flung settlements secure. If the Purépecha were expecting the Romans to fight their battles for them, they would be sorely mistaken.
Perhaps it was a good thing they didn't expect that.
Many historians agree that it was largely the oratory skills of Shanarani that swayed Alexios, in the end. The 'Princess' of the Purépecha gave an impassioned plea to the Emperor himself, saying that the Purépecha were just like the Romans or the Ohlone. That they were people who wished for an end to an endless conflict, and who would give anything to see the Aztec defeated and destroyed. That for all the differences in their faiths, were they truly that different from each other? The Purépecha did not go to other cities to take people and sacrifice them to their gods. They did not fight with the intention of slaughtering their prisoners. They did not want the endless war they suffered.
Could the Emperor understand that? Understand the desire for peace?
It is true, of course, that her words did not necessarily reflect the true will of her people. Shanarani was, in the end, a sheltered member of a nobility that was even more affluent in comparison to her people than the Romans were. Nor had she touched on the fact that the Purépecha did, in fact, sacrifice humans. Even if the methods and quantity were different, this was an inescapable fact that Alexios was actually aware of. It was what had truly kept him from committing. Would helping the Purépecha doom the souls of his soldiers, fighting for people who sacrificed their fellow man?
"When I heard this girl speak, I knew that I couldn't deny her pleas. They spoke to me, deep in my soul. I could no more deny her, than deny my own flesh and blood."
There is a saying, in Roman society. That when Alexios looked into the eyes of Shanarani, he saw nothing but his own children. A girl who had come far, far away from her own home to try and find help. No matter her faith, Alexios felt a kinship with her. The kinship she had tried to speak of. He retained lingering doubts about the honesty of the Purépecha, and indeed, that is where the- some would say harsh -prerequisites for Roman aid originated. A tough request for the Purépecha to agree with. Few doubt that human sacrifice would remain in their lands for several decades after this meeting, though it did open the route for Roman missionaries. It certainly made it easier for the Purépecha in the long-term, when other kinds of Christians entered their land. They were already well on their way to converting to Roman Orthodoxy.
That was for the future, however. At that time, what mattered was that the crimson-haired Shanarani had swayed the Emperor.
Alexios, despite his own reservations, would agree to send five hundred men, armed in the European style. These men, some of the best in the Roman army, would journey back with their Purépecha guides. Alexios would even send his own second son, Demetrios, to lead these men. He was that confident...or took the request that seriously. Regardless, the Romans would join with the Purépecha in their endless conflict with the Aztec, neither side quite aware of what this would mean. How this conflict would bring the Romans back to the forefront of world history, and how the Aztec would bring many people together.
Not least the Roman prince and the Purépecha princess.
[1] By now, it was generally understood that the Romans were still somewhere on Earth, not Eden. No men like the Aztecs could possibly exist in Eden. Where exactly they were in relation to Europe- or even further areas such as India or China -the Romans were, as yet, unsure of.
[2] With a name roughly translating as 'Walker' it should be little surprise that Shanarani would become famous in her own right. Or that she would be so curious in her explorations of Constantinople, meeting many different people and recording much for her father.
[3] It is unfair to the average Aztec to call them 'Devil' or 'Demon' Worshipers. Certainly, both sides would use propaganda to spread this narrative. The Romans to demonize their foe, and the Aztec to show their pride in their gods. Either way, it is generally accepted in modern times that the Aztec were horrible- but not as bad as the Romans would have believed. Even so, few are the Romans who have any pity for what would come. Not with their closeness to the Purépecha.
AN: Not as long, maybe, but it seemed like a good point to end. The next chapter will be the first of Chapter 9, since the setup for the War is complete. The Romans can't send a proper army...but, well, 500 men in steel armor and with steel weapons with the Purépecha's own forces behind them is hardly something to be underestimated...
- Pronouns
- She/Her
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[shakes fist]
CORTES!!!!!