I suspect the US will be a thing, but its not going to push much past the Mississippi River. MAYBE part of the Louisiana Purchase will be a thing (although France is more likely to sell their American gains to the Romans than to the Americans since they'll be able to pay more), but for obvious reasons the entire territory gained from the Mexican Cession is right out.
Honestly, I don't see the Romans pushing past the eastern slopes of the Rockies. That's a superb natural eastern border, and they have all the resources they could want to the west and a focus on the Pacific. Why push into the Great Plains? The Great Plains that we're considered useless desert for the longest time.
Honestly, I don't see the Romans pushing past the eastern slopes of the Rockies. That's a superb natural eastern border, and they have all the resources they could want to the west and a focus on the Pacific. Why push into the Great Plains? The Great Plains that we're considered useless desert for the longest time.
It's a useful sphere of influence. Having friendly plains tribes allows the Romans to establish supply lines near the East-coast, propping up native states and the weaker colonial powers. Thus preventing one power from dominating the East. I doubt they will allow a new threat like the Ottomans to emerge on their Eastern frontier.
It's a useful sphere of influence. Having friendly plains tribes allows the Romans to establish supply lines near the East-coast, propping up native states and the weaker colonial powers. Thus preventing one power from dominating the East. I doubt they will allow a new threat like the Ottomans to emerge on their Eastern frontier.
As I understand it the original attempts at english colonization in the Americas wasn't just a attempt to make a profit but was also a direct challenge to Spain and a attempt to establish a rival colonial empire to the English's Spanish rivals though the 16th century attempts at establishing colonies in what became North Carolina and Newfoundland failed before Jamestown was finally established the permanent colony of Virginia at Jamestown in 1607 which was heavily militarized out of expectations the Spanish might attack.
Such fears admittedly which wasn't completely unfounded given the period existence of 16th century Spanish missions and forts in the Carolinas and Virginia some as far as inland as the Appalachians mountains a few of which apparently survived into the 17th century
Even then, remember that the Ottomans were a near neighbor. In the modern day, it takes about three days to drive across Texas, (obeying the speed limit) and the width of the Great Plains to the Mississippi is a slightly greater distance than that. So the Rocky Mountains are going to be a very clear natural border geographically and politically for two centuries at least.
Because here's another very important point to remember. Right now as of 1500, the Great Plains are empty. Most of what become known as the Plains tribes are living up north of the Yellowstone and Missouri rivers right now. Because until someone introduces horses to the tribes, they are pretty much stuck on foot and have to be close to water sources like rivers. Once horses brought over by the Spanish were able to go wild, then tribes were able to penetrate into the Great Plains farther than the river banks. This also had the effect of the tribes conducting a great deal of forest clearing in what is now eastern Nebraska and Kansas to create more prairie grazing for the buffalo herds.
12.000 troops seems as too much. Unless part of it would be local militia - medieval states simply do not have 4-5% of population in army.It was possible, but after Napoleon. But militias who are not full time soldiers...it could work.
One important thing about Aztec tactic - they not only fought to cath enemy alive, they also run when their main standard fell. During Otumba battle 1000 spaniards and as much indian allies defeated 50.000 aztec and allies - becouse they run, when Cortez killed their commander and felled main Aztec banner.
Every other army would still slaughter them.
Please continue. About SW - as child i loved it, but now every time i see some, my thoughts are "they should lost thanks to enemy numbers"
One thing I would love the see would be: EVERYONE (In the Known World) FREAKING THE HELL OUT!
Like, a freak out bigger than ANYTHING in our recorded history. Heck, I really doubt the discovery of the Americas is going to cause the impact of a historical and well-recorded literal Act of GOD.
In this case, the salvation and profileration of the Queen of Cities is going to be a massive Self-explaining Evidence. All Europe, the ,Middle East and all Religions (Catholics, to-be-Protestants,Jews and Muslims) should freak out HARD. There just can't be another reaction I believe.
Eddit: With this going-to-be well recorded event I can see Atheism just falling down and Anthropocentrism having a really hard time developing as it did during the to-be Renaissance.
Honestly, I don't see the Romans pushing past the eastern slopes of the Rockies. That's a superb natural eastern border, and they have all the resources they could want to the west and a focus on the Pacific. Why push into the Great Plains? The Great Plains that we're considered useless desert for the longest time.
Yup, the Great Plains are quite useless at the time. There's still calls today to for the government to buy up large portions of them and make it into a giant reserve for Buffalo.
Even then, remember that the Ottomans were a near neighbor. In the modern day, it takes about three days to drive across Texas, (obeying the speed limit).
It does not take 3 days to drive across Texas. North to South can be done in about 13-14 hours (Brownsville to Dumas). I can make it from Dallas to Northern Wisconsin in about 2 days of travel at a reasonable pace. (and I could do that in about ~20 hours if I needed to)
Even then, remember that the Ottomans were a near neighbor. In the modern day, it takes about three days to drive across Texas, (obeying the speed limit) and the width of the Great Plains to the Mississippi is a slightly greater distance than that. So the Rocky Mountains are going to be a very clear natural border geographically and politically for two centuries at least.
Because here's another very important point to remember. Right now as of 1500, the Great Plains are empty. Most of what become known as the Plains tribes are living up north of the Yellowstone and Missouri rivers right now. Because until someone introduces horses to the tribes, they are pretty much stuck on foot and have to be close to water sources like rivers. Once horses brought over by the Spanish were able to go wild, then tribes were able to penetrate into the Great Plains farther than the river banks. This also had the effect of the tribes conducting a great deal of forest clearing in what is now eastern Nebraska and Kansas to create more prairie grazing for the buffalo herds.
You're right, it probably won't become a foreign policy goal to have influence in the great plains for the coming two centuries. But once horses spread and one of the colonial states becomes a clear rival then the idea of influence on the great plains becomes a vital foreign policy goal. Probably initially to secure supply lines in order to support native groups further East and then as buffer groups in their own right. If an idea like manifest destiny develops (not a big if in my opinion. Most of early modern protestantism comes across as completely delusional. Especially calvinism.) then the Romans might establish forts and garrisons in the great plains just to check encroachment.
Though an idea like Manifest Destiny might get seriously defanged when settling too far West might bring native retribution upon you, and reprisals might bring in the Romans.
The great plains will probably be a giant buffer zone between the Romans and whatever develops on the East-Coast. Though likely Spain will be the first rival to Roman influence.
While I'm still going into greater detail in the next update, I operated on three assumptions when I chose the number I did.
1. At the time of the siege, the Romans had 7k (including 2k foreigners) under arms. While it is probable only a portion of those had proper equipment, they could clearly supply- to some extent or another -nearly as many men just off of the City. This, of course, was a desperation 'get everyone on the Wall who can fight' thing which leads into...
2. The siege mentality is very, very alive. Constantine and Alexios lived through the siege, as did anyone in command of their military. To them, having as strong a military as possible is a very important thing, even if they have no immediate threats. 'Never Again' is very much still in force. Let's remember, we're not even quite 50 years out from the Siege yet. It's probable that the rampant militarization of Roman society (which is a thing, they're highly militarized right now) will fade away once the Aztec are dealt with and it becomes apparent no one can threaten Rome in their new homeland...*
3. In the fine tradition of Rome and the Legionaries, most of those soldiers are being used as construction crews to build and maintain frontier settlements. I'd say that most of the Roman soldiers are better trained- and used -as carpenters and laborers than as soldiers. Not that they can't fight, but they primarily focus on the building and such. Engineers more than combat soldiers, if you will. If they had to mobilize to fight a real war, well, they'd be trained properly. Until then...yeah.
*Well, until Spain shows up. NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH CONQUISTADORS. (Spain can't realistically threaten Constantinople either, but panic is rarely logical)
Yup, the Great Plains are quite useless at the time. There's still calls today to for the government to buy up large portions of them and make it into a giant reserve for Buffalo.
It does not take 3 days to drive across Texas. North to South can be done in about 13-14 hours (Brownsville to Dumas). I can make it from Dallas to Northern Wisconsin in about 2 days of travel at a reasonable pace. (and I could do that in about ~20 hours if I needed to)
While I'm still going into greater detail in the next update, I operated on three assumptions when I chose the number I did.
1. At the time of the siege, the Romans had 7k (including 2k foreigners) under arms. While it is probable only a portion of those had proper equipment, they could clearly supply- to some extent or another -nearly as many men just off of the City. This, of course, was a desperation 'get everyone on the Wall who can fight' thing which leads into...
2. The siege mentality is very, very alive. Constantine and Alexios lived through the siege, as did anyone in command of their military. To them, having as strong a military as possible is a very important thing, even if they have no immediate threats. 'Never Again' is very much still in force. Let's remember, we're not even quite 50 years out from the Siege yet. It's probable that the rampant militarization of Roman society (which is a thing, they're highly militarized right now) will fade away once the Aztec are dealt with and it becomes apparent no one can threaten Rome in their new homeland...*
3. In the fine tradition of Rome and the Legionaries, most of those soldiers are being used as construction crews to build and maintain frontier settlements. I'd say that most of the Roman soldiers are better trained- and used -as carpenters and laborers than as soldiers. Not that they can't fight, but they primarily focus on the building and such. Engineers more than combat soldiers, if you will. If they had to mobilize to fight a real war, well, they'd be trained properly. Until then...yeah.
*Well, until Spain shows up. NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH CONQUISTADORS. (Spain can't realistically threaten Constantinople either, but panic is rarely logical)
In the modern day, it takes about three days to drive across Texas, (obeying the speed limit) and the width of the Great Plains to the Mississippi is a slightly greater distance than that.
It should also note that modern highways that one can speed across don't exist in the past along with automobiles that make rapid speeds possible and of course bridges across rivers don't exist, the wetlands that were filled in, the forests that were cut down, the leveled hills and blasted though mountains, tunnels and expanded passes that also make such rapid trips possible are also still in tact.
Oh for flying fucks sake. A throwaway line of hyperbole to illustrate that it takes a long ass time to cross the Great Plains, and it gets this? First off, it did take a professor of mine three days to drive from El Paso to the East Texas border and yes, he only drove for eight hours a day going the speed limit because hey, he was an elderly gentleman.
The point is, until the Plains tribes that are hanging around in the mountains (the Comanche) or up in and near Canada (most of the other Plains tribes) get their hands on enough horses to make living in the Plains possible, that Great American Desert is a fantastic barrier to anything or anyone who might bother the Romans from the East Coast.
The point is, until the Plains tribes that are hanging around in the mountains (the Comanche) or up in and near Canada (most of the other Plains tribes) get their hands on enough horses to make living in the Plains possible, that Great American Desert is a fantastic barrier to anything or anyone who might bother the Romans from the East Coast.
The Roman Army is an institute with a history older than many empires, and more than a few cultures. From the earliest days of the Kingdom and Republic, to the Legions of the Empire. It has seen highs and lows in concert with the Empire it served, of course. The Roman Army that lost to the Turks was not the Army of Hadrian. Even so, that tradition of greatness had never quite faded away. It slumbered at times, yet, it was always there. After the event that moved Constantinople to Elysium, the Romans would find themselves able to bring their Army back to its once-forgotten heights. It was hardly the Army of the Emperors of old. It had to adapt to the new land and the new threats.
However, the Roman Army would adapt. It would grow and expand. Even if the Legions were an artifact of the past, the Army itself would look to the future with shining eyes. The Greek infantry, the Italian knights, the Turkish cavalry. All of these melded into a unified whole that would see its first test in the fires of the Aztec War...
--Roman Army Reforms, 1958
In sending his son to the Purépecha, Alexios made a conscious decision to test the Army he had inherited from his uncle. This long after the arrival in Elysium, there were few men left who had any practical combat experience. A few ancient veterans who could be asked about their experiences, perhaps, but no men who could say they had fought in a proper war. The days of being able to rely on the old Italian mercenaries were long gone. Giustiniani was a distant memory, even if his institutional reforms remained and his children served in the frontier forces. This can even be reflected in the equipment of the Roman soldiers, many of whom used hand-me-down weapons forged decades before their birth. In this regard, the lack of large iron deposits already began to cause issues. [1]
Regardless, the Roman Military was still a professional force. Albeit one untested in its new home.
Surviving records tell that Alexios was very aware of this fact, when he made his choice. He would be sending men who were well-armed, but had seen at most skirmishes with natives who had no concept of proper warfare. Even that was limited. These men would be more capable of surviving battle with the Aztec than the Purépecha, yet would require training by the self-same natives if they expected to win any battles. It wasn't an ideal situation. However...it was one that the Emperor could never turn away. Even ignoring the moral obligations he felt, this was the chance to prepare his army for the future. They could learn to fight again.
If they were not alone in Elyisum, in Arcadia, who was it to say that they would never encounter someone truly hostile to them? Someone who could, once more, threaten the City of Constantine? The more pragmatic choice was, indeed, to send a small force to learn the ways of War once again. That it was also the moral choice? Well, it just made it even simpler for Alexios to make his decision.
This being said, it is important to clarify exactly what kind of military force was sent by the aging Emperor. For Alexios would not send an exact slice of the entire Roman Army, in variation or size. He could hardly do so when he didn't know what kind of enemy, or land, he would be fighting against. In this regard- and acknowledging the limitations of transport and population -there would be no cavalry sent on this mission. The Turkish Horse, by now something more valid in name than in truth, would stay home during this conflict. [2] The majority of what was sent with Demetrios would amount to infantry forces, both sword and archers. A force that was hardly unfamiliar to the Purépecha in anything but the way it was equipped.
And how it was equipped!
Alexios sent the absolute best he could muster, to protect his son and to learn the ways of War in the fires of combat. The men sailed to Purépecha lands with spear and shield. Crossbow and longbow. Plate and mail. The Demetrian allagia[3] was, perhaps, the most well-equipped force in the Roman Army save for the Varangian Guard themselves. The Prince himself, and his most trusted subordinates, wore plate that would not have looked out of place in a European army of the time. Save for the age of the metalwork and the relative primitiveness of the design. The remainder of the men, from the archers to those in the infantry, would be clad in lesser steel armor and the traditional mail. Each man would carry a spear or bow, and all would have at least a short-sword to defend themselves on the basis of Purépecha recommendation.
For the Aztec were a force that would never waver and relished in close-combat. It was all well and good, the Purépecha said, to fight at range. They were envious of the crossbow and other bows carried by Roman archers. To some extent, they were even envious of the spear-and-shield tactics the Romans fought with. However, for all that they were impressed by the Romans, the natives were quite clear that they had to prepare to fight at close-quarters. The Roman mail would provide protection from Aztec Macuahuitl to some extent, but the Aztec were far too tenacious in combat for that to last long. It was absolutely imperative that the Romans understand this. To their credit...the Romans did take these lessons to heart. Demetrios would train his men in Purépecha style on the long trip to their lands. He, himself, would train with the Purépecha elite when they arrived in the capital.
It is a possibly apocryphal story, however, there is a tale of Demetrios and the heir to the Purépecha leader sparring with sword and Macuahuitl. Both men came away impressed with the other, despite the fact that neither was able to defeat the other. Demetrios proved the superior swordsman. The Purépecha prince proved the better warrior. The important part of this lesson, aside from the obvious improvement in relations, was how it taught both sides about how the other fought. Romans learned how the Purépecha and Aztec used their weapons and fought in close-quarters. The Purépecha gained an appreciation for Roman steel, that killed instead of maimed.
Perhaps the greatest benefit to this training regimen, or to the Romans coming at all, came from the way it forced adaptation. [4]
In this regard, Alexios had proven remarkably prescient. His decision to take advantage of the conflict with the Aztec to forge his military in fire was the correct one. Even before any form of conflict could begin, the men were eagerly absorbing the lessons of a people who didn't know the meaning of the word 'peace'. The Romans had not fought a proper war in half a century. Before that, the army of Constantinople had been small and relegated to garrison duty. The Romans had a long and proud history...that had fallen on hard times and lost its luster, in many ways. Learning from the Purépecha, who were in eternal war with the Aztec, provided a way to leave this slump.
Something that the Romans would grasp with both hands wide open. They could hardly afford to do anything else.
It would only be some time after they arrived, that the Romans would actually enter combat for the first time. Until that point arrived, the majority of the time was spent learning of the Purépecha culture and working to train. It was not an uncommon sight to see a Roman training with a native weapon, or a Purépecha soldier curiously testing a curved shortsword. These men came from dramatically different cultures and homes. Their languages were mutually impossible to understand. And yet, once they began to learn to speak to one another, these people became friends and comrades in arms. They learned from one another and trained with one another. It was hard to underestimate how much difference that alone did for the conflict with the Aztec. Having the Romans as a core of shock troops made a world of difference as well. The same could easily be said for the Romans, when given the proper materials, teaching the Purépecha how to forge bronze weapons.
Steel it was not. Weapons that would impress the likes of the Spanish, they were not. What the Romans did with the existing metalworking knowledge...was provide the Purépecha with a way to rapidly catch up, however. A way to forge weapons that could outmatch the Aztec. A way to create armor that could protect them better than cloth ever could. Allies. Could they truly coexist? Demetrios and Shanarani seemed to believe so, and the two were rarely seen apart from one another. But that...
That is a story for another time and place.
1. The lands of Elysium and Arcadia- as far as the Romans had explored by 1500 -were rich and bountiful in many things. It would not be long before the Romans realized just how much gold they had stumbled upon. The one thing they lacked in large quantities, however, was iron. It would be some time yet before the Romans secured a reliable domestic source of iron ore. The salvaging of the Great Chain and ruins in Constantinople provided a stopgap. It was only ever a temporary solution, and it should come as little surprise that so much of the Roman equipment was aging relics of the days in Europe. Still perfectly serviceable, but not something that would last forever.
2. The initial force of cavalry in the Roman Army was small and based primarily of Turkish mercenaries. Few were the warhorses that had survived the siege, and the population grew even slower with the greater need for draft animals. Cavalry being relatively useless for anything but scouting in Elysium did not help. As a result, it became something of an unofficial- though soon very official indeed -trend to call the forces 'Turkish Horse' or 'Turk Cavalry' as the descendants of these mercenaries continued to serve in this role. Even as the populations intermingled to the point that 'Turk' became something of an honorary title, it continued. Even to the modern day it is an honor to be part of the 'Turkish Horse'.
3. Allagia are something of a catch-all term for Roman regiments of the time. The size could vary dramatically from formation to formation. Demetrios had a force on the smaller end, with his 500 strong army.
4. The lessons learned against the Aztec and alongside the Purépecha would form the basis of Roman tactical doctrine and growth for many years to come. With this being the first proper conflict the Romans had faced in well over a century, it should come as little surprise. The greater utility of these lessons came in how they prepared the Romans for fighting in the wilds of Arcadia, no matter the foe they faced.
AN: Apologies for the delay. After work nearly killed me (quite literally) I needed a real break from anything to recover. That, unfortunately, included writing. That said, now that the holidays are over, I should hopefully be able to get back into the swing of things. Starting with the Aztec War. Which we will really start digging into soon. Very soon. Hopefully that part should be worth the wait, since I've been doing a fair amount of wargaming in my notes to think about how this will go. I want it to be as accurate as humanely possible.
The iron lodes in California are all up high in the Rocky Mountains. They are inaccessible to the Romans unless they have lots of luck and a fuck ton of labour survey a path through the mountains. Then having to build and supply a mining town that high up. Then they have to transport the iron without the help of canals or rivers. It is all pack train from there. So it poses a logistical problem for the empire. Rome requires hundreds of tons of iron and coal. They have no easily exploitable sources of either nearby.
