Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)

Good story.
As such as i knew,they could use sea currents to go to South America - till 1475 existed there Chimu state,later conqered by Incas.Well,i do not think,that they could help Chimu much.
But Aztecs are another story - there were Tarasca state with bronze weapons which opposed them till 1520,Romans could help them.
Please continue.
 
Chapter 6
Chapter 6
Religion in the Roman Empire (Part 1)

While never an out-and-out theocracy, akin to the Papal States in Rome, the Empire of the Romans has always been a deeply religious state. For the Emperor was the voice of God on Earth. As well, the power of the Ecumenical Patriarch was, if not technically the level of the Pope, not to be underestimated. It is true that this power varies according to the Patriarch or era in question. At times, the Emperor would push the Church down. Or appoint their chosen Patriarch. The back-and-forth between Church and State reflected the changing political climate in the Empire. On some level, it could be said that no one ever really knew who held the most power in Constantinople. The Patriarch, or the Emperor. It could change with every Emperor or every Patriarch.

This would remain largely true, right up until Saint Constantine himself. It is little known, in modern times, that Saint Constantine had attempted to reunite the Catholic and Roman Churches. He was willing to subordinate himself and his Church to the hated Pope, in exchange for support against the Turks. This is, understandably, not well-known. It was a moment of weakness.

In any case, with the arrival in Elyisum, the situation changed. No Patriarch ever stood against any Emperor of Constantine's line on temporal matters, unless they desired the scorn of the people. The line of Constantine- through his nephew Alexios -became even more intertwined with the Church and God. After all, was it not God's work that moved the City? That blessed the Emperor and his descendants? Even the gradual changes to the Church, reflections of the rapid influx of Native converts, were taken as a sign of God. The Roman Church would never be quite the same, nor quite recognizable to even the Russians or Greeks.

The less said about the Patriarchate of Qusqu 1​, the better...

-Hans von Seydlitz, Professor of Religious Studies, University of Königsberg, 1962



Religion in the Roman Empire had always been tied to the Empire. Where the Catholic Church gradually moved away from the Holy Roman Emperors and towards the Pope- if one could ever claim the Emperors held real power over it -the Eastern Church was always tied to the Eastern Emperor. The seat of power, even in the days of the Pentarchy, was indisputably in Constantinople. While not divine in the sense that, for example, the Chinese Emperors were...the Roman Emperor was still central to the Church. Ecumenical Patriarchs were, in theory, subordinate to the Emperor and the Empire. The Emperor ruled over all Christians as God's representative on Earth. There was no Orthodox Church, without the Emperor of the Romans. There was no Empire, without the Orthodox Church.

A gross oversimplification? Perhaps.

It is necessary to understand how the Church and Empire developed, upon entering Elysium. While the Emperor had always been seen as tied to God, this belief took new life with Constantine. It has already been discussed, how this clear Act of God had changed Constantine as a man. What is equally important, however, is how it changed the perspective of his people. Constantine had, admittedly, been less well-loved than he might otherwise have been. Prior to Elysium, he had upset many in the diminished Empire by his moves towards reunifying the Churches. While he was merely continuing his predecessor's actions, it was still a slap in the face to many Orthodox Christians. That it was a ploy to keep the Turk at bay mattered little, in that regard. His actions in standing up to Mehmed did gain some measure of love and respect back, at the least. It is really impossible to say how the Romans would have felt, if he had died in battle or defeated Mehmed.

What can be said, is that after arriving in Elysium, Constantine- and through him, the Palaiologoi Emperors -became revered overnight. Once more, the Emperor found himself at the heart of a religious revival the likes of which had never been seen before. That will likely never be seen again. For a deeply religious people such as the Romans, such an obvious sign of God's will was...transformative. Even the least devout member of the population in Constantinople, found themselves moved by what had happened. God had chosen them to save. It was not some random city in the middle of nowhere, filled with unimportant people. It was the City of World's Desire. It was the Romans. They had been saved from death and destruction, and moved to a paradise. Was it any surprise that religion was what the Romans turned to, to explain what had happened?

This was true of the Italians and Turks, as well. Most of the Italians were quite ready to believe that Orthodoxy was, in fact, the true way to see God. After this, there was little denying it. Those of the Turks who held to Islam were something of a minority, and held to their faith out of a desire to not lose what they were.2​ Even then, they could hardly deny that God had clearly chosen the Christians. They were along for the ride, in a matter of speaking.

In the days, months and years after arrival, the Hagia Sophia became the center of the City in a way it hadn't in decades. Emperor Constantine and the new Ecumenical Patriarch would spend many a service in the Church, telling the people of their holy duty. A duty that Constantine, shrewd as he would prove to be, turned to his own agenda. Saint Constantine is known, primarily, for his belief that the Natives were people that should be brought into the fold. Cared for and shown the glory of God and Roman civilization. Not savages to be killed, but children to be taught.

He used the near-holiness of his position to make that belief into law.


This would, in many ways, become a core tenant of the Roman Church.3​ Missionary action and converting non-believers had long been at the core of Christianity. It was how Europe had abandoned paganism, and how the Orthodox Church spread into Russia. However, this was often done by the sword. Crusades into the Baltics against pagans. Crusades in the Levant against Muslims. Crusades against fellow Christians, as the Romans knew all too well. Rarely was there any real effort to convert peacefully, in living memory of the City that came to Elysium.

Constantine changed that.

Romans, as a whole, became more interested in integrating and converting peacefully. The Ohlone were the first, of course. Bishops spread among their population, crippled by disease and brought into Roman society. They were test subjects, if one wanted to look at it that way. A successful test in most respects. As the Ohlone integrated relatively painlessly into Roman society and Roman Christianity. Having Constantinople appear out of thin air made it rather easier to convert them, than some other later tribes would be. However, this does raise a point on Roman Christianity that should be discussed.

Efforts to integrate instead of to conquer, historically, can tend to lead to the culture being integrated 'leaking' into the culture absorbing it. This is evident even in Rome itself, as the culture of the East was always more Greek than Latin in nature, even before the Schism. The Roman Empire in Arcadia is no different, as it would turn out. Integrating the Ohlone and other native people's would, gradually, lead to certain facets of native culture and religion seeping into the fabric of society. It was inevitable, in some ways. While the Empire would always maintain a Greek core, the fringes would often have much of the culture of the nearest tribe visible.

Nowhere is this more true than in the Church itself. While it would be untrue- and a stretch in any case -to claim that paganism is present in the Roman Church, there are certain stories of native beliefs being brought in to make conversion easier. Spirits and other beliefs of the native tribes would, often, be justified in terms of Christianity. Angels and demons alike. This syncretic system was, admittedly, on the fringes of society. Constantinople saw little of these superstitions. On the border territories, however, it remains. Even to the modern day, it is not hard to find a church with native items lingering in alcoves. Or find a Roman citizen who, in their personal life, still looks to their ancestor's for guidance.

Christianity may have been the dominant religion, with new Patriarchs in the far-flung Empire- and certain other nations, nearby.4​ However, outside the most heavily Hellenized areas of the Empire, it was a Christianity that developed to serve the needs of a new Empire. Rome was a multicultural society, and not even the holy Orthodox Church was resistant to this fact...


1. The Patriarchate of Qusqu is one of the more...eclectic...Patriarchates of the Roman Church. Relations are genial enough with the Ecumenical Patriarch, though it is as much out of common dislike for Catholics as anything else. Both Patriarchs tend to 'don't see, don't tell' on certain lingering beliefs in Qusqu.

2. A minority that grew smaller and smaller as years went by, though never entirely fading away. Generally ignored by most Romans as stubborn old fools, in modern times. This includes those of Turkish descent, who converted in the aftermath of the miracle movement of the City.

3. Not to be confused with the Roman Catholic Church. While the Church in Constantinople remains fairly similar to how it was on the Dardanelles, the various differences in the Empire has generally lead to a low-level schism with the Orthodox Churches in Greece and Eastern Europe. They are still in communion, however, it was decided that the Church was different enough to be considered a separate entity for most cases.

4. These nations will be covered in more detail in later chapters. Examples include Mēxihco and the Tawantinsuyu.


(apologies for the delay.

Though, now that I'm at a (generally) less stressful and tiring job, I should be able to update more regularly. Hopefully. >.>)
 
As the 'Part 1' should indicate, I'll be doing other bits on this subject. That said, I'm never getting deep into the minutiae of the Roman Church. I may be a history teacher, but I'm not a religious studies major by any stretch of the imagination. I'd rather keep it to more general areas, than butcher something. So while I'm still researching and plotting things, don't expect me to get into huge detail on the subject :V
 
How a man uses power says a lot about him, and the fact that Constantine used his status as very close to God to prevent his people from treating the natives like the European did during the Conquest is enough for me to truly consider him a saint inside my mind.
 
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With the update, I'm wondering if secularism will ever take of in Rhomania, maybe it could end up like Italy, almost everyone is an Orthodox Christian, but that is just a secondary fact and not many will go to church that much.
 
Huh, an evangelistic Orthodox church. It'll be very funny for Junipero Serra , who probably won't get to be a saint in this timeline, to instead be an ambassador to Rhomania.
 
Good chapter.
you could use Tarasca indians - they were only kingdom never conqered by Aztecs.Mostly becouse bronze weapons - and in battles they fought to kill.
Aztec almost to the end try to take enemies alive - for sacifice,of course.

P.S Worshipping ancestors is not christian way,but if indians only pray for them...and local spirits could become local angels - for medieval people every place had its angel.
 
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The next update is going to focus on the Native perspective, when I get the time to write it. Probably during my days off this week. Hopefully.
 
Chapter 7
Chapter 7

Natives in the Early Roman Empire

The native people of Arcadia were, in many areas, a simple people. This is not to say they were somehow inferior nor that they could not develop civilizations the envy of any in the rest of the World. However, in the case of the Ohlone and many like them, it was hardly necessary. Living off the land and in small groups had worked for centuries and would likely have continued to work, until such a day as it became necessary to merge into larger groups. Those who lived along the rivers in the center of the continent did this, with their great cities and mounds. The Haudenosaunee certainly had a civilization of their own. As did the Zuni, the Hopi and the Haida. These people, no matter how advanced they may have been, were completely unprepared for Constantinople and the Roman Empire. How could they have been? No one could have prepared for such an event.

To this day, the oral traditions of many of these Native People relate to their first encounter with the City and her people. Both those absorbed into the Roman Empire, and those on the fringes of it.

Very little survives in writing, of these early meetings. Even my own ancestors left very little behind, as they likely never learned to write. It is these oral stories, passed from parent to child, that tell the tales. Almost universally, they talk of the glory of Constantinople and how difficult it was to understand it at first. Is that too hard to understand for a modern audience? Perhaps. However, it is important to understand the perspective here. How would you react, if you left your wooden hut and saw a massive stone wall with glittering churches and mighty palaces? It is certainly something that only someone there, at the time, could ever understand...

-Hector Diakos, 'Arcadians and Romans: Oral Histories of Arcadia.' 1952



The reaction of the Ohlone people to the City has already been covered, in some detail. Awe and disbelief. An almost childish curiosity, upon seeing stone used for such massive structures. This reaction was, in many ways, perfectly understandable.1​ What little stonework the Ohlone understood was simple. Tools and hunting instruments, perhaps some minor use in construction. The vast forests of Elysium, with massive old trees, provided everything that a simple people could need for buildings. Why build in stone when your settlements were always temporary? This feeling would cause some level of friction, in the initial relations between Natives and Romans. The Ramaytush and those like them, were not a people prone to a sedentary lifestyle.

Disease and Roman settlers did, on some level, empty out the already sparsely-populated land. This made it relatively simple to leave, for those who wished it. Remarkably few did, unwilling to abandon their ancestral hunting grounds.

For those who remained, it was a deluge of culture clashes. Historians sing the praises of Saint Constantine and his benevolent practices. For good reason. However, in the early days, many Romans looked at the Natives as primitive barbarians. Memories of the Turk remained strong. The Ramaytush and other Ohlone were so very different, that some level of disdain was almost certainly inevitable. It was not racism, not in the sense that it would later become in European colonies. Romans, as a general point, were among the least racist of any society on Earth. They had become separated from Europe before cultural racism truly came into being, and with the integrationist policies of Constantine, it became very common to see mixing of the population.2​

Roman disdain for the Natives, before Saint Constantine could truly stamp down upon it, came from more traditional corners. The Greek, and Roman, tendency to see those of different cultures as 'barbarians'. Not inferior due to the color of their skin or the ways of their people, but due to not being 'Roman'. Being outsiders. This was a fairly common belief, after so long under siege. It would take more than a few years to truly remove it. Even in the newly formed settlements outside the Theodosian Walls.


If learning to live in permanent, stone settlements was strange to the Ohlone, it was even more strange to adapt to new religions. Very little survives of the pre-contact Ohlone faith. So little, that beyond certain beliefs in spirits, few have bothered to study or learn of it. The waves of disease and the new homes were accompanied by, as strange as it was for the Roman Church of the time, missionaries. Saint Constantine's desire to convert the natives was one of the few things that nearly everyone in Constantinople felt strongly for. Even the Ohlone could not, would not, deny that a miracle had taken place. No power weaker than a God could possibly have moved a city of this size so far away from home. It wasn't possible.

That Constantinople was already a Holy City, in many ways, merely reinforced this notion.3​

Romans, channeling their ancestors, pushed this belief. This paradise was a gift from God and it was their duty to show the light of God as a result. Perhaps, in the long run, it was lucky for the Ohlone that they lacked an organized faith. Or that it was the Romans, and not other Europeans, who had met them. They converted by the word, and not by the sword. At least, when the people being converted refused to fight back. The Ohlone equally lacked soldiers of any form. Even if there had been a desire to fight, they would have been completely incapable of it. As it was, conversions were relatively painless. The first few generations had some resistance, holding to certain practices that some believe still exist today, if well-hidden. However, as more and more churches were built and more and more Romans were born, this resistance gradually faded.

It is generally believed that, by the time the Romans would enter Tzintzuntzan4​, the Ohlone had completely converted to Christianity. In later years, in fact, many missionaries to other states- such as the Haida and Hopi -were Ohlone natives. This process of conversion was one of the great success stories of Roman relations with the Arcadian natives. It would not be so painless in other areas, though that is for the future.


Another case of culture shock could be found in the presence of livestock animals. The idea of domesticating animals was almost alien to the Ohlone and many other Native groups. Dogs were not unknown, in some areas. Creatures the like of cows or horses, by contrast, were strange at best. The Ohlone had never seen the like, as the great herds of bison that existed in the Plains were completely unknown to them. It must have seemed very strange, indeed, to see cattle grazing deforested land. Or to see Turkish cavalry practicing inside the Walls of the City. It was only the bravest of the Ohlone who attempted to ride themselves. Very few in the Roman military would ever be from those tribes, especially in the cavalry arm.

However, the food that cattle provided- and, indeed, the milk -revolutionized the society of the Natives. When the population began to recover from the ravages of disease...it boomed. Easy access to food, provided by both crops and cattle, created a situation where the Ohlone could grow. Hunting and gathering was never able to support a large population. It had never needed to.

With the Romans attempting to restore their population, in addition to the natural growth that more stable food supplies provided? It was little wonder that the Roman population- which included the Ohlone, by this point -continued to grow rapidly. It was this, more than anything else, that truly integrated Natives into the Roman state. The provision of bountiful food supplies and a population that welcomed them. The first men who had ventured into the City would not have recognized their descendants, even as short as a few decades later. In the end, this may have been for the better. Certainly...

It was far better to be a Roman, than to be the unfortunate soul who lived in the Spanish or English territories.

___________________________________________________

1. To a society for whom 'stonework' amounted to tools and firepits, this should come as little surprise. The Ohlone were more curious than anything else, in awe of such buildings as the Hagia Sophia.

2. While it is fair to say there has always been a firmly 'Greek' core to the Empire, many in the population are what the Spanish would term 'Mestizos'. This is more common for those of Native descent than for those who immigrated from Ming- and later, Huai- China, in large part due to preexisting populations.

3. Home to the Hagia Sophia, the greatest Church in Christianity, and founded by Constantine. Constantinople was already a Holy City in many ways, even before it was moved to Elysium. Afterwords, it has, to some, become as Holy as Jerusalem or Rome themselves. If not more so.

4. Tzintzuntzan is the capital of the Purépecha people. Their story will be covered in greater detail later, however, their relationship with Rome shaped both societies greatly.


I intended for this to be longer than it was...but that seemed like a good point to end it. And I'm very much of the opinion that it is best to end at a natural point, than to pad the word count. Hopefully it's still good.

Also, several hints for later here.
 
Home to the Hagia Sophia, the greatest Church in Christianity, and founded by Constantine. Constantinople was already a Holy City in many ways, even before it was moved to Elysium. Afterwords, it has, to some, become as Holy as Jerusalem or Rome themselves. If not more so.
Not to mention being First Among Equals of the Pentarchy.
 
Thanks for chapter.
1.Stone building - locals initially could take them for mountains.Rocks sometimes made weird schapes,after all.
2.Population booms - i read about Bushmen in South Africa - they lived just like Ohlone - small tribes which had almost nothing and must change places,when animals become rare thing.But,they had comparetively little work - usually they hunt 4h per day,and rest was for them and their families.
3.Use Tarasca indian - in OTL they were only kingdom which Aztec never conqered - thanks to bronze weapons,and fighting to kill,not capture./sure,they used human as sa gift for gods,too - but in battle they fought to kill.
Aztec always try to break leg or arm of enemy.
Please continue.
 
He had burned it to the ground and salted the Earth, leaving not so much as a single stone unturned. He would be remembered as a butcher and warmonger. As the man who destroyed the City of Constantine. He would rather that, than be known as the man who had been robbed of his prize by an act of Allah. An act that seemed to favor the Christians, and not the Muslims.

He would not, could not, let that be known.
"Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks."

That's certainly gonna get a different reception here.
 
I can't wait to see this three way war. 0_0
"Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks."

That's certainly gonna get a different reception here.

The removal of Constantinople might actually lead to a delay, if not outright prevention of European colonialism across the Atlantic. A significant catalyst for explorers was finding a trade route around the Turkish chokepoint.

If Mehmed successfully convinced the world he had burned Constantinople to the ground, the Ottomans likely would have less success than irl. For one, they lost a major city and trade hub. Without it, they are economically weaker and will not be able to dominate trade as easily as they did historically. Second, the destruction of a holy city would make the Christian subjects nervous to say the least, perhaps to the point of revolt, and the remaining independent Balkan nations would likely put up significantly more resistance and likely would have more support from other countries. The Ottoman economy was held up by conquest and control of Mediterranean trade, the disappearance of Constantinople will make both these things more difficult, which could lead to an earlier decline in Ottoman power. It would be kind of funny if the Romanians managed to push the Ottomans out and build a third Rome.

Without Ottoman dominion in the eastern Mediterranean, the impetus for colonialism would be less, perhaps resulting in it starting later. The need for resources, particularly gold and silver would likely push them westward eventually though.
 
Second, the destruction of a holy city would make the Christian subjects nervous to say the least, perhaps to the point of revolt, and the remaining independent Balkan nations would likely put up significantly more resistance and likely would have more support from other countries.
That might even cause a 10th crusade to try and push the ottomans out of Europe.
 
The discovery of the New World was heavily pre-determined.

It can't be easily butterflied away by killing Columbus or the like.

Brazil would have been discovered anyway by the Portuguese in the 1510s or 1520s at the latest.

Naval development, evolution of better ships, better navigation, better maps, portolans, compasses. And more.

Commercial incitaments, spices, fishing on new fishing grounds like the Grand Banks. Continuing financial growth in Italian cities like Genoa and Venice that made the financing of more advanced commercial enterprises possible.

All that made the discovery of the new world of approximately when, and by whom. Not if.

Constantinople vanishing might influence that when and who, mostly by a major trade hub disappearing, with trade being redirected to places like Cairo and Damascus even more than OTL.

It might even make expeditions to the new world earlier/more intensive, to try to compensate for the disappearance of the trade hub. It all depends on exactly which way the butterflies wings flap.

(btw, didn't @Skywalker_T-65 say that the old world would be exactly the same as otl until contact, or am I misremembering and confusing it with something else?)

The Ottoman economy was held up by conquest and control of Mediterranean trade, the disappearance of Constantinople will make both these things more difficult, which could lead to an earlier decline in Ottoman power.
That might even cause a 10th crusade to try and push the ottomans out of Europe.

The Ottoman were a growing power, that's they could take the city to begin with.

If it makes them weaker it will be rather marginal.

Constantinople had like 50,000 inhabitants in 1453. If they rebuild it, it will grow back to pretty much the same size with several hundreds of thousands of people it would have had a few centuries later, just without buildings like the walls or hagia sophia.
 
Constantinople vanishing might influence that when and who, mostly by a major trade hub disappearing, with trade being redirected to places like Cairo and Damascus even more than OTL.
The Ottoman were a growing power, that's they could take the city to begin with.

If it makes them weaker it will be rather marginal.

Constantinople had like 50,000 inhabitants in 1453. If they rebuild it, it will grow back to pretty much the same size with several hundreds of thousands of people it would have had a few centuries later, just without buildings like the walls or hagia sophia.

Trade shifting from Constantinople would severely damage the Ottoman economy long term. If it moved to Cairo and Damascus, it would significantly strengthen the Mamluks economically. Could the Ottomans build a city to replace Constantinople? Probably, but it would take serious amounts of investment to create anything comparable. The population isn't the big point here, but rather the infrastructure. The Turks didn't exactly have a shortage of people, but infrastructure would be much harder to replace, especially with the disappearance or flight of people who had the knowledge of how it was set up. By "destroying" Constantinople and thus killing the Patriarch there, the Ottomans would likely face much more unrest among its Greek subjects, which could further weaken them. As I mentioned previously, it would also likely make their enemies more unified.

It might even make expeditions to the new world earlier/more intensive, to try to compensate for the disappearance of the trade hub. It all depends on exactly which way the butterflies wings flap.
The disappearance of the trade hub would likely create more interest in finding a replacement in the east, as the Europeans knew that this was a certain possibility. It is likely that they would have explored west, that is true, but there would be less impetus to colonize, at least for certain nations. Though the Spanish need for gold would probably push them to look for gold somewhere.
 
I've said that there's a Butterfly Net on Europe. However, this is mostly in context of Columbus and the Reformation. Details of those could also change, but the key thing is:

You still have Columbus 'discover' the New World. You still have a Reformation.
 
So a thought occurs. With the survival of Constantinople, does that mean chariot racing could survive into the modern age?
 
I tried modeling this scenario in EU4 and let's just say it kinda went bonkers. I don't know how to create wasteland so created a custom nation on Constntinople with OP defense, figuring the Ottomans would eventually take it but would take a hit representing it's nonexistence. It turns out I went overboard, as they lost so much men to attrition that Serbia and Austria beat them and sent them into a death spiral so bad Candar and Knights of Rhodes took land from them and Byzantium was released by rebellion. Meanwhile the Cali Romans struggled when attacking the nearby natives.
 
So a thought occurs. With the survival of Constantinople, does that mean chariot racing could survive into the modern age?

Hmm, from what I can find chariot races declined in the 7th century though races were still held in Constantinople until the forth crusade sacked the city in 1204 but Chariot races as a sport had been dead for several centuries by the point of the transference of Constantinople and by the 15th century the Hippodrome had become a ruin.
 
Hmm, from what I can find chariot races declined in the 7th century though races were still held in Constantinople until the forth crusade sacked the city in 1204 but Chariot races as a sport had been dead for several centuries by the point of the transference of Constantinople and by the 15th century the Hippodrome had become a ruin.


True, but once they start rebuilding the city and trying to restore it's splendor the hippodrome is still there, in disrepair but still standing and it's the perfect place to hold events and restart the races.
 
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