- Location
- United States of America
I don't think so because people like the Medici and Brunelleschi had little influence from the Byzantines as they have already done their works which started the Renaissance.
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Purple Phoenix Reborn (Constantinople ISOT)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
- Timeline
It's gonna be more interesting when contact with Europe is reestablished and they find out that Constantinople wasn't razed but teleported to the americas.
Although a century until first contact with spanish explorers doesn't sound like much time for the population to really grow if they start with 50k people.
They don't have the immigration from Europe for one. The natives may compensate for it a bit, but I have some doubts that they will be a big source.
On the upside, with a lot of land, disease pressure should be much lower, allowing more children. But that still means maybe a million people in a century if they pop out kids like crazy. Which doesn't factor in warfare with the natives, internal unrest, diseases and so on.
Then again, a million people is still a lot of people in the 16th century compared to what lands on the east coast. And it has a bigass mountain range to act as a fuckoff wall. So they should absolutely be a power on the west coast. I just don't see them being able to claim much beyond it aside from vassals and tributaries once the Europeans arrive and compete. They might even be able to get a ton of pilgrims from them once contact is restored given that they have a divine miracle as a capital (and a lot of Orthodox under Ottoman rule trying to go there instead).
Exploration across the sea might be amusing as well if they restart trade with China and everyone just thinks China just plain doesn't care to distinguish western traders.
Although a century until first contact with spanish explorers doesn't sound like much time for the population to really grow if they start with 50k people.
They don't have the immigration from Europe for one. The natives may compensate for it a bit, but I have some doubts that they will be a big source.
On the upside, with a lot of land, disease pressure should be much lower, allowing more children. But that still means maybe a million people in a century if they pop out kids like crazy. Which doesn't factor in warfare with the natives, internal unrest, diseases and so on.
Then again, a million people is still a lot of people in the 16th century compared to what lands on the east coast. And it has a bigass mountain range to act as a fuckoff wall. So they should absolutely be a power on the west coast. I just don't see them being able to claim much beyond it aside from vassals and tributaries once the Europeans arrive and compete. They might even be able to get a ton of pilgrims from them once contact is restored given that they have a divine miracle as a capital (and a lot of Orthodox under Ottoman rule trying to go there instead).
Exploration across the sea might be amusing as well if they restart trade with China and everyone just thinks China just plain doesn't care to distinguish western traders.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
That definitely won't be happening until after reconnecting with Europe. The ship types required for such a journey are definitely not in Constantinople and I think haven't even been built yet. There'd mostly be galleys and other inland sea ships in the city's ports and you'd need ships with much deeper drafts to challenge the Pacific of all oceans. Besides why would they try to cross the ocean when they have this massive continent to settle.
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Numen
Long Time Creeper
- Location
- Canada
The Renaissance's jumpstart was much earlier and happened due to (ironicaly) the First Crusaders bringing back ancient world knowledge and tech they found in the Islamic Empire.
The Aztec Empire (or formally known as the Triple Alliance), aka, the Mexicas weren't necessarily as tyrannical as Conquistador era Aztecs. In this earlier time, they might actually be less aggressive. Still tons of human sacrifices and the practice of auto-sacrifice, but never to the extent exaggerated by foreign accounts. There are oppurtunities for reform or closer relations with the Byzantines.
However the year in which the Byzantines arrived was a bad time and the beginning of Aztec extremism.
"Over time, the Mexica, in particular, developed a feeling that the needs of their gods were insatiable. The period from 1446 to 1453 was a period of devastating natural disasters: locusts, drought, floods, early frosts, starvation, etc. The Mexica, during this period, resorted to massive human sacrifice in an attempt to remedy these problems. When abundant rain and a healthy crop followed in 1455, the Mexica believed that their efforts had been successful. In 1487, according to legend, Aztec priests sacrificed more than 80,000 prisoners of war [archeology uncovered barely a thousand corpses I recall] at the dedication of the reconstructed temple of the sun god in Tenochtitlán."
—History of Mexico - The Aztec Empire
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- Location
- Upstate NY, USA
- Pronouns
- Fjf
In 1553, a million people on the North American west coast would be twice as large as the population of Scotland. It would also be slightly smaller than the combined population of Sweden, Denmark, and Norway.
The other point to make is that the Rockies aren't the only barrier. So is the sea. Any European power heading to San ConFranstancistincoople needs to get there by sailing across the Atlantic, all the way down South America, around Cape Horn, and back up. Or they sail east from somewhere in the South Pacific/Indian Ocean. This would be a round trip journey measured in years.
The alternative is building ships on the Pacific coast of Mexico/Central America/northern South America and then heading north.
Here's the 'off the top of my head' list of countries that could do either:
More capable
Spain
Portugal
England
Ming dynasty China
Less likely
Sweden
Netherlands
France
Holy Roman Empire (what's left of it)
Ottomans(arguably the strongest power in Europe in 1553, don't think they have the cross ocean naval power for this)
So, assuming European exploration of the Americas continues as it did in our history, and that the relocated Constantiopolitans aren't aggressively exploring Westward on their own, it is a reasonable guess that first contact will be in the late 1500s, from someone flying the flag of England or Spain.
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- Location
- Pacific NW
Well, in 1565ish the Manila Galleons that Spain builds start sailing from the Phillipines to the west coast of North America. That is still a 4 month trip of sailing across the Pacific and just aiming for shoreline that you can then follow south to Mexico proper. There are wrecks of Manila galleons on the Oregon coast, buried in the sand, because the crew all died of illness/disease on the way over. You know that one is out there because beeswax (a big part of the cargo load) still washes up on the beach.
And then Drake sailed up that way to about Point Reyes looking for one in the 1579.
And then Drake sailed up that way to about Point Reyes looking for one in the 1579.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
One thing that hasn't quite gotten the 'coverage' it deserves? Domesticated Animals. It's like the saying about equipment vs. logistics. Casual folks debate the former, professionals debate the latter. This is logistics for every civilization and tribe in the Americas.
While more technological things and the massive archives dating back to the Republic will be crucial later on, right now the immediate resource Constantinople can exploit is horses, dogs, and assorted livestock. Because when you get right down to it, and go back to the roots of civilization, see how they branched off in development?
One of the cornerstone of the west was how many different types of animals we could breed to serve us. In the Americas, there are none that fit the criteria.
While the native americans are about to get a massive dose of medieval diseases, they're also going to get a leg up on integrating horses into their culture. Assuming the Emperor doesn't pull a Viking and ban horses from being traded to the natives.
While more technological things and the massive archives dating back to the Republic will be crucial later on, right now the immediate resource Constantinople can exploit is horses, dogs, and assorted livestock. Because when you get right down to it, and go back to the roots of civilization, see how they branched off in development?
One of the cornerstone of the west was how many different types of animals we could breed to serve us. In the Americas, there are none that fit the criteria.
While the native americans are about to get a massive dose of medieval diseases, they're also going to get a leg up on integrating horses into their culture. Assuming the Emperor doesn't pull a Viking and ban horses from being traded to the natives.
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Probably will, at least for now, given they have a limited number of horses and no stud farms to raise more in large numbers.
- Location
- Pacific NW
Maybe some enterprising Venetian or Genoese sailor finds their way to New Zealand and brings back some giant moas before they go extinct? Domesticate them and the Chocobos of Constantinople could be a thing. 
A very different Winged(less) Hussars, no? Maybe more something like the Dread Direchicken Dragoons...
A very different Winged(less) Hussars, no? Maybe more something like the Dread Direchicken Dragoons...
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HolyDragoon
Call Gespenst!
- Location
- Portugal
Maybe some enterprising Venetian or Genoese sailor finds their way to New Zealand and brings back some giant moas before they go extinct? Domesticate them and the Chocobos of Constantinople could be a thing.
A very different Winged(less) Hussars, no? Maybe more something like the Dread Direchicken Dragoons...
I think they were related to the Emus?
Just picture it.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
Maybe some enterprising Venetian or Genoese sailor finds their way to New Zealand and brings back some giant moas before they go extinct? Domesticate them and the Chocobos of Constantinople could be a thing.
A very different Winged(less) Hussars, no? Maybe more something like the Dread Direchicken Dragoons...
Sorry to be a party-pooper but again the Byzantines probably don't have the boats for such a journey. The only Europeans that really have the ships for trans oceanic voyages right now are the Iberians and maybe the English. I'm not 100% sure on that. Most of their ships will be useful for inland sea and coastal stuff since you know that's where Constantinople was located.
What is it with people and waning exotic mounts anyway? The horse is far better for general use and easier to tame than anything else that has ever existed concurrently with Humans
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- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
I know there isn't much north-south movement in the Americas, but will the plague destruction/recovery cycle reach far enough south fast enough that the really big Americas civilisations will be able to hold out and be relevant?
Incan empire and the Amazon river basin civilisation essentially.
(you might not have heard of the Amazon river people because they didn't have writing and were only ever encountered by one unreliable group of explorers before their collapse when those explorers plagued them and the survivors fled to tribal living, by the time another group of explorers came up the river everything was already overgrown. We don't know why they collapsed so dramatically. We don't even know their name.)
Incan empire and the Amazon river basin civilisation essentially.
(you might not have heard of the Amazon river people because they didn't have writing and were only ever encountered by one unreliable group of explorers before their collapse when those explorers plagued them and the survivors fled to tribal living, by the time another group of explorers came up the river everything was already overgrown. We don't know why they collapsed so dramatically. We don't even know their name.)
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1) I imagine that the ships and traders that came through might cause increase connections along the Pacific coast, which is likely to at least reach Central America a couple decades before IRL.
2) That sounds a lot like the Mississippi river valley civilization. We have a lot of evidence of them given the Mississippi river isn't choked with jungle the way the Amazon is, but by the time Europeans reached them the plagues had already broken their civilization and left their cities abandoned.
- Location
- a
The good: Getting the reaction of the first European explorers seeing Constantinople for the first time. And how the rest of the world reacts to the news.
The bad: Constantinople getting hit by the 1906 earthquake that burnt and broke the majority of San Francisco Hoping the big landmarks survive.
The even better: The first New-Byzantine returning to the former city location and scoffing at what the Turks built
The bad: Constantinople getting hit by the 1906 earthquake that burnt and broke the majority of San Francisco
Hoping the big landmarks survive.The even better: The first New-Byzantine returning to the former city location and scoffing at what the Turks built
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Constantinople is in a fairly earthquake prone area itself (including ones matching and exceeding the '06 quake) and the major landmarks weather it well enough. Most of the worst in the San Fran quake was because of fire or being built on unstable (ie, dredged and silted) ground. If you assume the ISOT takes along the bedrock too, then Constantinople shouldn't have much issue with quakes.
More than it did at the Dardanelles, anyway
More than it did at the Dardanelles, anyway
floppy_seal99
D-O-G-A-R-S DOGARS!
- Location
- snooping as usual
Constantinople is in a fairly earthquake prone area itself (including ones matching and exceeding the '06 quake) and the major landmarks weather it well enough. Most of the worst in the San Fran quake was because of fire or being built on unstable (ie, dredged and silted) ground. If you assume the ISOT takes along the bedrock too, then Constantinople shouldn't have much issue with quakes.
More than it did at the Dardanelles, anyway
I would just for easier logistics, assume it does. Constantinople has a shitload of cisterns. These cisterns are underground. This allows the city a fairly tamperproof source of replensihable water, along with a place to stock fish.
On a related note, cutthroat trout tastes wonderful. It's like salmon, but more gentle tasting and without oil and fishiness if you get it fresh from the water. Might as well get the ERE to stock up on that, especially if they find the rivers in the Tetons and other neighboring areas suit them for specimen collection.
@Skywalker_T-65, if you're uncomfortable with that much cutthroat being consumed, just have the Greek explorers bring back Lake, Brook, and Rainbow trout along with the bottom feeders in these areas that taste like a slightly mealier gray sole. Note the possibility of domesticated Elk and Bison popping up as well. Both are large animals that provide healthier meats than simple beef. The Northern Rockies and Wyoming/Montana/Idaho in general are also excellent places to raise an army of heavy cavalry.
I've thought about this alot, as you can see. Also I can help flesh out some of the stuff that happens when the Western Euro Mountain men and fur trappers meet the Romans. I find that area of the country fascinating from a historical perspective, AND far more A E S T H E T I C than anywhere in the northeast USA.
What's "Beaver Dick Lee" in Byzantine Greek? "Something Something Leo?"
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
Kinda doubt the Romans will be running into European fur trappers as they didn't get this far west for a LONG time after the Spanish will stumble across us on one of their expeditions. By the time the two groups could possible meet the Romans and Europeans would likely have normal communication so the only thing to write about would be two fur trapping teams stumbling across each other or the fur trappers getting far enough off course to run into a Roman town
Good thing they have horses and camels. Conquest America is fucked without draft animals for agri and transport.
Don't even get me started on the military side.
Don't even get me started on the military side.
- Location
- Williamsburg, OH
Oh wouldn't that be something though? Imagine Lewis and Clark discovering that while exploring! Even if it's just the native tribes talking about the Silk Road-esque trade route where they get all their shiny metal from rather than actual roman villages.
I mean, they followed the Columbia river valley to the Pacific, which is far enough north of San Francisco bay that I agree it's not likely to be densely populated anytime soon.
And now I'm really interested in what happens to the Pacific Northwest.
floppy_seal99
D-O-G-A-R-S DOGARS!
- Location
- snooping as usual
Yep. I still see the Romans being super behind on tech tho
Will Californians get the same stereotypes about them in the future?
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
We just went over this. The Spanish will find the Byzantines in the mid to late 1500's. From there they will likely try to re-establish communications with the rest of Europe. Lewis and Clark won't be discovering anything cause EVERY ONE WILL ALREADY KNOW THE BYZANTINES ARE THERE! Heck the author said that news of the ISOT is going to have major repercussions on the Reformation due to a literal act of God taking place.Sorry. I know this is coming off as very rude but its extremely irritating to me when people don't stop to think about this stuff.
They'll be a bit behind but they'll likely be able to extrapolate some advances such as personal gunpowder weapons from their cannons and maybe some oceanic ships by the time the Spanish show up. Then it'll be a tech adoption spree to catch back up to the Europeans.
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
At worst, the Romans would be behind in tech for a little while after making contact with Europeans again. But it won't take very long to catch up. Greeks, which they technically are, are a creative bunch. And trade with the Spanish is fairly likely. As such, they'd get examples of newer guns and ships. Once they catch up...well.
Anyhoo, probably going to work on another update tomorrow since I finally have some time off again.
Anyhoo, probably going to work on another update tomorrow since I finally have some time off again.
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Also, keep in mind that the Industrial Revolution doesn't hit for centuries yet. The pace of military technology is not such that Europe can easily hold onto it in the face of states with a reasonably modern commercial and agricultural base. Indian states gave British forces fits almost to the start of the 19th century. The Ottomans could mostly keep up in this period; the Sengoku Japanese ended up ahead of Europe in many respects, and that didn't stop the Ming from fighting them effectively in Korea.
It's not until the Industrial Revolution that things get really out of hand, and ideally by then the Romans will have the knowledge and economic base to not fall behind.
It's not until the Industrial Revolution that things get really out of hand, and ideally by then the Romans will have the knowledge and economic base to not fall behind.
Chapter 2
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Chapter 2:
First Contact
First Contact
The lands we are exploring are nothing like what we left behind. The land is mountainous, true, yet...it is clearly not Anatolia. Fog blankets everything, making venturing from the Bay a dangerous proposition. Even exploring along the coasts is yielding relatively little signs of civilization. Demir claims to have seen ships in the fog, though I find that hard to believe. Who in their right mind, would sail out in this? Willingly? I want to believe him, of course. I want to believe that God has not sent the City somewhere completely empty. Would it be worth escaping the Turk, only to die alone? Surely there are other people out here somewhere.
At first light, I am going to take the ship towards shore. If Demir was actually seeing something, we will follow the path they took. If there are actually other ships out here, other people, they must have a home. There is no reason to believe they are migrating or that they do not live in this area. Perhaps we can find a home, if this blasted fog would just go away...
---Giovanni Moretti, 1453
Exploration of the Bay was a risky task, in the first few days of the Relocation. The Roman and Italian mariners knew their ships, and they knew how to sail. However, the foggy Bay was far different from the sunny Mediterranean. Constantinople was far enough inland to avoid the worst of the fog. Even so, at times, it would spread further than expected. Even were there ocean-going ships available, venturing through the unfamiliar strait was dangerous. A few ships confirmed that the vast ocean was not the Mediterranean, yet went no further. The ships were not designed for long voyages without land in sight. They were never intended for true ocean travel. As such, on order of Emperor Constantine himself, exploration was focused on the Bay and the land ringing it.
Roman and Italian ships split, some north and some south. Loaded with an eclectic mix of Romans, Italians and Turks for ranging inland, these vessels were the forefront of Constantine's efforts to learn more of his surroundings. To discover just where God had moved his City. In the initial days of exploration, they would find nothing of note. The Bay proved to be massive and untamed, trees lining the coasts and little sign of civilization. Some aboard the vessels began to believe, if only in private, that God had given the City an Eden. Empty land to colonize and shape in his name. Some others believed it a curse, that the City would wither away without trade or any new subjects.
Still others, including a young Turkish soldier by the name of Demir, believed that they had seen small vessels in the fog.1 Nothing more than canoes, perhaps, yet vessels nonetheless. Aboard the Iride, a Venetian galley, this man would guide her in the direction he had seen the shapes in the distance. The captain of the Iride, Giovanni Moretti, would later say that he had always believed Demir.
At the time, however, it was an act of Faith and not a rational motion.
The Iride pulled up against a cleared portion of land, a few mílion2 to the south of Constantinople. It was here that Demir and a group of Roman militia spread out to explore the strange land they had found themselves in. The trees resembled the oaks of Europe, yet they were subtly different. Stronger and taller than anything any Roman had seen in many years. The birds and animals that called these trees home, rustling around the curious men, were different as well. Not a single creature was the same. Chirps were different. Plumage was nothing remotely familiar. Even the rodents that scurried about, were clearly not from Greece nor Anatolia.
With this sight greeting the early explorers, was it any wonder they were surprised when they actually found human habitation? Later records would describe this meeting, in various favorable and unfavorable lights. It truly depends on who you ask, and if they are inclined to view the Romans favorably. The common consensus, however, is simple:
Distracted as they were by the new and unusual life around them, the Romans and Turk came across a village. Almost without realizing it. It would only be when strange words in an undecipherable language were shouted at them, that they realized what had happened. Were this Europe, or even Mēxihco, this may have been the death of these unfortunate explorers. However, it was not. The natives of the Bay were a simple people, who were as confused as the Romans at what they were seeing. While conflict was not unheard of, these were not a warlike people.
A fact that proved fortuitous, as the Romans and their Turkish guide would find out. Even as these men closed into a defensive formation, they were being greeted with more curiosity than malice. The people who stood before them were far different from any that the Romans had seen before.
Tall and relatively dark skinned, the men and women were clearly not African nor Indian nor even Chinese. They wore strange clothing, though from the perspective of the Natives, the Romans wore stranger garments. The buildings the Natives stood before were simple round huts, made of local materials that the Romans did not recognize. Not one man held a proper weapon, only a handful carrying what appeared to be spears. In fact, to the surprise of the Romans, not a single piece of iron was visible. Not iron, not gold, not silver. Not even bronze.
These people were primitive. They had a civilization, it was clear, yet it was not a proper society by the Roman standard. Even the Mongols had been more civilized.
This first impression was not helped by the fact that, when a clear elder stepped forward, the man spoke in a language nothing like anything heard in Constantinople before. Even Demir, who had heard tribal Anatolian languages, was unable to even hope to translate it. The Romans, who spoke Greek and little else, couldn't begin to understand it. Attempts to communicate with the elder, draped in a thin fur coat, were doomed to failure at first. It was only the apparent friendliness of the Natives that smoothed over this early stage of contact.
As a whole, humans are a curious creature. Presented with something new and unknown, there are two primary reactions. Violence, and the desire to know more.
For the Ramaytush3 people and the Romans, it was the latter that won out.
Given food and water, the Romans were invited into the camp- and it became apparent it was a camp -of the Natives. These men, confused as they were wary, were plied with stories and tales. Not a word came across, from either side, though it was at least established who they were. The elder quickly learned the word 'Roman'. And the Romans quickly learned the word Altamu. The home of the people they were speaking to, and evidently just one of many villages. When told this, a young Roman smiled and informed the Natives that they were from the city of Constantine.
When the elder smiled at the breakthrough in communication, he made wide gestures towards some of the younger men of his community. No words were needed to understand that gesture. The Natives wanted to see this 'City of Constantine', even if they only vaguely understood what it was. It was hardly in the original plan by the Emperor.
Constantine had wanted to know if there were any Turks or other recognizable people nearby. Not bring strange and unknown people to the City.
However, perhaps sensing a rich reward, the Romans didn't care. They readily agreed, with Demir the Turk assigned to attempt to learn the language the Natives spoke. Not out of any altruism, but only out of the belief that a Turk could clearly understand a savage language better than a Roman could. While an insult, it would prove to be a boon, when hard work would see this language translated. For these few men would become the first Natives of this strange land to visit Constantinople.
First contact, at least with the Ramaytush people, would prove to be a relatively bloodless affair. It would only be later that Roman and Native alike, learned just how little resistance these people would have to disease and cultural change...
1. Demir the Turk would, in later years, become something of a popular folk hero in the Native populations of Rome. A man from a hated minority, who had the good fortune to be the first person to meet any Native. A man who proved that you didn't need to be Greek to be an important figure. For all that he would become lost to history in later years, this only fed a convenient myth for those Natives who wanted to cling to their cultural identity in the Empire.
2. A Greco-Roman 'mile', the mílion is roughly equivalent to 1.5 kilometers.
3. The Ramaytush are the subdivision of the Ohlone people that were native to what would be OTL San Francisco. The name 'Ramaytush' is a relatively modern invention, however, it is difficult to find what this group would have actually called themselves. I use Ramaytush for convenience.
(Apologies for how long this took to get up. Work has been...less than kind to my energy, lately.)