So the answer to the Sketch flying ahead is to give up? Thanks for playing, try again after the next lightning rounds? We need to keep going forward on each opportunity and leaving our upper house to stagnate is an explicitly bad decision according to the GM himself.
Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
It costs more PW now, but giving the Houses more rights upgrades our system of government, giving us more PW every turn.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
We just had this conversation, dude.
LoserThree
Finds writing poorly easy
- Location
- Greater Seattle Area
- Pronouns
- he/him
Are we to understand that no amount of sensible, prudent, low-pollution development will satisfy the Second Estate?
What actually bothers people is we apparently can't do our own thing now. We need to do the same as everyone else.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Ugh.
Fucking history, always being about who races to the bottom for efficiency faster.
I can't really say you're wrong though, especially since we're still held back by the existence of our undeveloped hinterland.
EDIT: The problem, basically, is that the Sketch are leading the example. And even though they jumped on a grenade, they were so far ahead of everyone else combined that even being on fire and miserable, they were still better off immediately afterwards, and are pulling ahead again despite still being on fire. Which means that everyone else needs to sink to their level or lose to them.
Effectively, they found a cheat code government style for the era that lets them do everything and ignore the consequences because they can afford to take a year doing nothing at all and still be in the lead in the aftermath when they start moving again, and everyone who doesn't copy them loses. And that's why we're effectively losing self-determination out of it, because our populace in world knows this.
In short, it's the parable of the tortoise and the hare--except the hare has a warp drive so it can afford to take naps and still crush all the competition. You don't need to be determined and stable if the slightest exertion of your power leads to instant victory.
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- Location
- Leeds
Could you give some context to these? Because to me it doesn't sound like Most Industrialized should be so far ahead that they can catch fire and still be so far ahead that they're on a different level. I thought it meant that they'd bounce back quickly after it'd stopped smouldering.
- Location
- Illinois
We started industrializing 30 years after they did, and we choose the slow but steady method. Our IC base is solid, but it is significantly less expansive than the Sketch's.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Uh...source? AN has indicated that the Sketch can take more actions than us due to greater devolved power, yes, but this also comes with downsides (including, but not limited to, reduced central coordination of actions). I can't see anywhere he's explicitly said it's a bad idea to keep the Upper House at Minor Lawmaking. Hell, he didn't even say it was a bad idea to restrict them to Veto power, just that they'd get in a snit over it.
- Location
- Leeds
Okay.
Where do other nations compare?
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
I know that Tortun was about as industrialized as us but.... *looks at fire and Federation*
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Basically, they took functional Minor Lawmaking for themselves even though it wasn't given to them because they have power and influence and we can't afford to stop their every power grab, so reiterating the de jure laws will make them assume that it's an attack on their rights, leading to what amounts to being revolution.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't have proper numbers, but basically the lost a bunch of IC but gutted their education system for the spare change to repair enough damage so that they are still ahead of you. Like, they lost gobs of SoL and a big chunk of their IC, but they were far enough ahead on both of those that even after those losses they still have a stronger economy than you, and once they pat that out they will be back to pull ahead of everyone else as quickly as they possibly can.
Part of it is that because of the long delay before the meltdown they had a lot more time to build momentum and get further ahead than if they kept getting knocked back like they usually would, and during that time they invested a lot in business techs that helped a lot here.
If not for the revolution tango that keeps blowing up their stuff the Hespranxer, Tortun, and Behryvar would all also be ahead of you. The Hes are now behind you for the time being, while SKF is about equal to you after looting the Behryvar (more heavy industry, less consumer goods) for now, even if they are likely to melt down if left to their own devices.
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- Location
- Snowbound Wilderness
[X] Plan FREEDOM
-[X] [UH] 2 PW - Power of the purse
-[X] [LH] 4 PW - Minor lawmaking (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)
-[X] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)
-[X] [UH] 2 PW - Power of the purse
-[X] [LH] 4 PW - Minor lawmaking (+1 Temp Happiness)
-[X] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad (+1 Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)
-[X] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1, Academic Freedom Provides Half Consciousness to Innovation)
- Location
- Illinois
Here's the relevant quotes
Generally, UH needs lawmaking minimum, and LH needs Veto min.
Edit: Also, we're not going to be able to stop the factions from polluting. It is, per WoAN, impossible unless we want to cripple ourselves and start a civil war/exile Nokly.
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- Location
- Trondheim, Norway
[X] Plan And Lawmaking for All
Causing a revolt by rolling back lawmaking powers is your definition of a good idea?
The Sketch had a 30 year lead at the start of the quest and they kept it up so much that even the biggest economic crisis just caused them to stubble for 2 phases at most. If you can't see why having an advantage of 2x Actions is a cause for change then I don't know what else to tell you. We need to get a modern government for the extra PW cap+regen and the extended action scope to even be able to compete. Just look at the most recent update for how easily the Sketch recovered and profited.
KlinkerKing
Man bites dog?
- Location
- The Lion's Den
[X] Plan FREEDOM
Here we go.
Here we go.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, first off that's an exaggeration, he said that Nokly would have to fight the nobles over it but he didn't say it would lead to literal revolution.
Second, I'm not advocating we restrict them to Veto power, I'm just pointing out that even that decision - which would definitely be more questionable than codifying their Minor Lawmaking status - hasn't been called out as explicitly bad by AN. This serves my actual point, which is that drasteed's assertion ("leaving our upper house to stagnate is an explicitly bad decision according to the GM himself") is completely false.
Yeah, okay, again, that doesn't actually address the point I'm making - which is that nowhere has AN said it's explicitly a bad idea to leave the Upper House with "only" Minor Lawmaking powers.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
And of course, I imagine that they can just buy their Education back up, because there are never consequences for plundering the future to pay for the present as long as you have enough money, right?
I mean, logically speaking, doing what you've suggested they do should have led to a revolution, because people who have an extensively high SoL suddenly tanking it is going to hurt--especially considering that the only real way you can justify the extreme industrialization that you're suggesting the Sketch have (To the point of being better than literally everyone else combined apparently) is if everyone can pay for enough trinkets to justify the suffering.
I mean, I'm not saying that this is straight up impossible, but it probably shouldn't have been obfuscated if Sketch could outproduce the rest of the world combined, which you're suggesting they are to be able to afford the solution you say they executed. It should have clearly stated "Greater industrial development than everyone else in the top five combined" in that state, as such a detail probably shouldn't have been missed.
An economic crash in a pre-communications world shouldn't have been recovered from as quickly as the Sketch did, not with the government style they had, not when theoretically, they should have had to cajole every individual factory baron to play along with the scheme.
Unless the problem here is that they could just constantly raise PW and hang onto a massive stockpile to whip everyone into submission in a crisis--which again, isn't how governments work, but eh.
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Sorry, misread your post.
