Hopefully we'll be able to give some of the land to the Behryvar and the Wyrmyn. If we are really lucky, we'll be able to give some land to the Halvyni. If we cannot give land to any of them, and if we can't convince the Sketch or the Kielmry to take a bite, I'd say give the western portion of the Tortun to the Ochruhr, and guarantee the remaining independent state.
Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization
- Location
- Australia
Would he? It's not like we're make him a General. We just want him to give some lessens and write some books.
- Location
- Austria
It's a short-term solution with long-term problems: specifically, they already have national consciousness and age of nobility is slowly waning, so this will be progressively harder to maintain and less effective.
Wrt long-term problems: well, it will piss off the inevitable United Tortun.
Too late, they had a taste of nationhood already.
HanEmpire
Delicious
Yes? If we end the Tortun Republic with this war we'll be the ones that organized and spearheaded the coalition that brought down his Republic. Why would he help us after that?
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It's a tough sell getting people to move to Siberia instead of America
So we drown it out in blood and propaganda and local interests.
- Location
- Austria
Land connection instead of having to get a boat will likely help.
Plus I don't think America has gone full Nation Of Immigrants yet.
Uhhh....
This, again, is one of those things which I cannot say we cannot do, but I can say we won't because PW is very limited and we have a lot of buzzsaws in the air.
- Location
- Australia
His other option is exile to a island in the South Atlantic Ocean. It just seems to be a waste to me.
We'll see. I think keeping our European front save with a buffer/puppet state and battleground instead of a resurgent nation is a good investment.
We all hope, but soon is not now and the idea is to pay the Sketch to build up their economy, so...
It's much less a lack of the idea of a 'win-win relationship' and more of a 'we have no way to force people to play by the rules on an international scale.
It would take, at the very least, complete co-operation between us and the Sketch, probably between the entire coalition in reality to actually do it. Because if there is no superpower, or equivilant there of, to enforce this deal, then the idea of 'expel the jews, they can't actually fight back' has a very strong possibility of happening with a nation that is getting that much funneled into it for industrialization. And the very justifiable fear of that by everyone is likely what will stop it.
So we'd probably need a superpower to back this up in order to actually enforce it.
Clearly we should banish him to the not!USA. This can, in no way what so ever, backfire, I am sure.
- Location
- Australia
What? I mean Saint Helena.
The potential new states will almost immediately (10-50 years) reunify unless they are either de-facto or de-jure controlled by foreign powers. They are geographically adjacent, they will have similar political systems, they have a shared language, religion, and cultural history. They will further have significant incentives to unify so that they can resist being pushed around by foreign powers.
For everyone outside the German culture group (everybody other than the Dutch, Bavarians, or Austrians), the land isn't a reward, it is a curse. It will take time and resources to keep pacified that could be much better spent on other things. The more land we can give away without giving enough of an advantage to the aforementioned powers to absorb the others, the better off we are.
Heck, maybe we can trade the Dutch some of the western German lands in exchange for some of their Indonesian holdings.
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- Location
- USA
I think that this is bloody madness.
It is not possible to just split the Tortun between the victors, and even less so to try to keep them under control under a small collection of states.
Like it or not, a united Tortun in some way shape or form is likely to stay.
I can think of only a single precedent in the entirety of history that involves the flat out partition of such a powerful state, specifically the destruction of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Know what that led to? A nearly straight 100 years of civil unrest and frequent rebellions that only ended with the resurrection of Poland. Only Austria ever managed to turn its portion into something vaguely manageable without repressing the population to ridiculous degrees, and that was only achieved through a significant degree of autonomy.
Keep in mind, that the PLC was not even a single national state, also containing massive numbers of Ukrainians, Belorussians and Lithuanians, and the state had been in decline for the whole of the previous century.
The Tortun Republic has so far been a highly successful state led by a tactical, strategic, and administrative genius, that is essentially ethnically homogeneous, and has never been beaten in a fair fight, and likely never will be.
You are asking for hell if you want to destroy the Tortun state. That is a national myth the likes of which has barely ever been approached, let alone met. That is a level of nationalism that can never, and will never be crushed.
Only the Ochruhr have serious claims on anything more than a pittance of Tortun territory, and there's no way their authority will ever be accepted again.
Separating it into other states is likely to end with repeated and terrible rebellions until eventually, someone else rises to take advantage of that national myth and recreate a Tortun state that not only hates all of its neighbors, but is also probably going to be strong enough to actually beat all of them with the industrial revolution. Doing this is going to be self fulfilling prophecy. If we burn such hatred into the national memory of the Tortun like this, they will come for us again, and they'll damn well be justified for us trying to destroy their state and national identity.
There must be a reconciliation of some sort. There was no partition of France at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. There should not be here.
It is not possible to just split the Tortun between the victors, and even less so to try to keep them under control under a small collection of states.
Like it or not, a united Tortun in some way shape or form is likely to stay.
I can think of only a single precedent in the entirety of history that involves the flat out partition of such a powerful state, specifically the destruction of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Know what that led to? A nearly straight 100 years of civil unrest and frequent rebellions that only ended with the resurrection of Poland. Only Austria ever managed to turn its portion into something vaguely manageable without repressing the population to ridiculous degrees, and that was only achieved through a significant degree of autonomy.
Keep in mind, that the PLC was not even a single national state, also containing massive numbers of Ukrainians, Belorussians and Lithuanians, and the state had been in decline for the whole of the previous century.
The Tortun Republic has so far been a highly successful state led by a tactical, strategic, and administrative genius, that is essentially ethnically homogeneous, and has never been beaten in a fair fight, and likely never will be.
You are asking for hell if you want to destroy the Tortun state. That is a national myth the likes of which has barely ever been approached, let alone met. That is a level of nationalism that can never, and will never be crushed.
Only the Ochruhr have serious claims on anything more than a pittance of Tortun territory, and there's no way their authority will ever be accepted again.
Separating it into other states is likely to end with repeated and terrible rebellions until eventually, someone else rises to take advantage of that national myth and recreate a Tortun state that not only hates all of its neighbors, but is also probably going to be strong enough to actually beat all of them with the industrial revolution. Doing this is going to be self fulfilling prophecy. If we burn such hatred into the national memory of the Tortun like this, they will come for us again, and they'll damn well be justified for us trying to destroy their state and national identity.
There must be a reconciliation of some sort. There was no partition of France at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. There should not be here.
liberty90
Evil Neoliberal Cat
- Location
- Poland
During XX century it was possible to keep half of Europe as (mostly self-governing) puppets of Moscow. 1/3 of Germany included. It's not 100% impossible (though we lack strong ideological justification like communism).
Sure happened after WW2.
And it was such for less than a generation. Before it was a bunch of dukedoms, so it can be split again.
Yeah, because there was actually such thing as France before the revolution. There was no Tortun before it.
Break it into nations, promote local culture, use the fear of Ochruhr return to bind them closer to their patrons, ensure they have a reasons to fight each other and need support and there won't be a Tortun after.
- Location
- Illinois
1900s =\= 1800s
We don't have the ideology to back us up, the communications or transportation infrastructure to keep us tied together and aware, Hell, were still intergrating Ymar and Guyv.
They are in no way similar circumstances.
- Location
- Central Europe
I would try forming a Tortun Confederation. Splintering the Tortuns forever is a fantasy, but keeping the prime economic and military power of Saffryn divided for 25+ years, while we modernise and shift our focus to Asia, would be highly beneficial to us.
Best way to do this is probably to put these mostly independent splinter states into a confederation unter Not!Austria.
In there they can create military and economic treaties to bind their countries together. Meanwhile the respective patrons of these splinter states should try to position themselves as a supportive counterweight against complete NotAustrian rule/domination (something the former republics are sure to despise).
Meanwhile we should only take Wyrmyn lands, so as to avoid potential future conflicts with the Tortun.
When they inevitably reunite a few decades down the line. We should hopefully have achieved at least power parity with a unified Tortun.
Best way to do this is probably to put these mostly independent splinter states into a confederation unter Not!Austria.
In there they can create military and economic treaties to bind their countries together. Meanwhile the respective patrons of these splinter states should try to position themselves as a supportive counterweight against complete NotAustrian rule/domination (something the former republics are sure to despise).
Meanwhile we should only take Wyrmyn lands, so as to avoid potential future conflicts with the Tortun.
When they inevitably reunite a few decades down the line. We should hopefully have achieved at least power parity with a unified Tortun.
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- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Or we could just simply leave them in one peace with a 50 year no going to war deal.
We don't have the ability to do most of the things people are suggesting.
We don't have the ability to do most of the things people are suggesting.
- Location
- USA
There is literally no reason for the Tortun to hate each other, or at the very least not the northern ones.
When they came together under the republic, they became the most powerful and feared state on the entire continent.
It has required the strength of three other great powers and 2 secondaries in order to force them into a position where they aren't even decisively losing, just under duress.
You would have to contrive some truly incredible reasons to get the people of these states to actually hate each other when essentially five minutes ago they were united in camaraderie and the terror of Syffryn.
There are things you can brute force practically, and things you can't. Getting the Tortuns to hate each other is not one of those things.
Ah yes under the steel hand of the Warsaw pact and after decades of indoctrination or death type political systems. Even so, there was still the Prague Spring and the Hungarian rising, which had the potential to unravel the entire system through domino effect had they succeeded. Also most of those states had ages long nationalistic problems with each other that Moscow could play off of each other. The Tortun Republic is a single nationality.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but do you actually want to use resources on that?
No, before it was the United Ueman empire, essentially a less dysfunctional HRE. The Tortun identity very much existed already and had for centuries.
For WW2, I addressed that above, and it required population transfers on a scale never before seen, and hopefully will never be seen again.
No one is going to care about local culture, at least not immediately, after they've seen what they could do together. Why would they want to get closer to their puppet master? The reflex of nationalism is to rebel and reform the nationstate, not huddle up to your warden.
When they came together under the republic, they became the most powerful and feared state on the entire continent.
It has required the strength of three other great powers and 2 secondaries in order to force them into a position where they aren't even decisively losing, just under duress.
You would have to contrive some truly incredible reasons to get the people of these states to actually hate each other when essentially five minutes ago they were united in camaraderie and the terror of Syffryn.
There are things you can brute force practically, and things you can't. Getting the Tortuns to hate each other is not one of those things.
Ah yes under the steel hand of the Warsaw pact and after decades of indoctrination or death type political systems. Even so, there was still the Prague Spring and the Hungarian rising, which had the potential to unravel the entire system through domino effect had they succeeded. Also most of those states had ages long nationalistic problems with each other that Moscow could play off of each other. The Tortun Republic is a single nationality.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but do you actually want to use resources on that?
No, before it was the United Ueman empire, essentially a less dysfunctional HRE. The Tortun identity very much existed already and had for centuries.
For WW2, I addressed that above, and it required population transfers on a scale never before seen, and hopefully will never be seen again.
No one is going to care about local culture, at least not immediately, after they've seen what they could do together. Why would they want to get closer to their puppet master? The reflex of nationalism is to rebel and reform the nationstate, not huddle up to your warden.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
After we looted all the industrial equipment.
The locals can keep that land.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Well yes but we should already be done looting by the time the war ends.After we looted all the industrial equipment.
liberty90
Evil Neoliberal Cat
- Location
- Poland
Wouldn't weird monarchical & capitalist "NotWarsaw Pact" (basically our sphere of STRONG influence) be better than constant new wars with enemy that was once defeated?
Because completely free and united Tortun sounds like something that sooner or later WOULD again wage war on us.
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We aren't the only people in this war. Each of the other coalition members are probably going to have a say about what to do with the Tortun. The coalition members are the Sketch, the Kielmyr, the Stormyr, and the Ochruhr.
The Sketch are going to want to keep the balance of power in Europe. That probably means slightly diminishing the power of the Tortun to act as a counter-weight to us and the Ochruhr.
The Styrmyr are probably going to be more concerned about republicanism than about the the Tortun state itself. They will probably be satisfied with changing it to a constitutional monarchy, and are probably hoping to throw their weight behind another power (Ochruhr) in exchange for guarantees or other concessions.
The Kielmyr are probably going to want to have a northern buffer state to act as a trip wire against Tortun revanchism, and will push for a significantly weakened Tortun.
The Behryvar as non-participants are going to be be more worried about being engulfed by a super-Ochruhr. They are probably hoping to convince the Kielmyr and Sketch that they should grant Behryvar some of its claims so that it can act as a counterweight to the Ochrur and the Tortun rump state.
The Ochruhr want to reunify their empire. Since the Ochruhr were major war participants, we probably aren't going to be able to stop the Ochruhr from annexing significant portions of Tortun without going to war ourselves.
The Sketch are going to want to keep the balance of power in Europe. That probably means slightly diminishing the power of the Tortun to act as a counter-weight to us and the Ochruhr.
The Styrmyr are probably going to be more concerned about republicanism than about the the Tortun state itself. They will probably be satisfied with changing it to a constitutional monarchy, and are probably hoping to throw their weight behind another power (Ochruhr) in exchange for guarantees or other concessions.
The Kielmyr are probably going to want to have a northern buffer state to act as a trip wire against Tortun revanchism, and will push for a significantly weakened Tortun.
The Behryvar as non-participants are going to be be more worried about being engulfed by a super-Ochruhr. They are probably hoping to convince the Kielmyr and Sketch that they should grant Behryvar some of its claims so that it can act as a counterweight to the Ochrur and the Tortun rump state.
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