I mean, we're talking about a distance of like 40 kilometers from coast at the most inland point in the entirety of Epulia. There aren't many places where the sea is more than a few days away.
 
...considering how many butterflies we've already unleashed, the idea that there would be any of those things to stand off against is utterly mindboggling. Seriously, I get that utterly shitty alternate histories seem to think that you can massively alter societies and not actually alter anything, but what in the world makes you think that Cetashwayo is that sort of author? Is it the rigorous attention to ripple effects? The stern dedication to avoiding ahistorical injections of anachronistic concepts?

(The first part isn't objectionable at all, surviving for a long time is simply a goal, but the second one is... just what)

Any Italian Fascist/Revanchist analogue then.

The rise of Far Right movements seem to be inevitable in the first place.
 
Any Italian Fascist/Revanchist analogue then.

The rise of Far Right movements seem to be inevitable in the first place.
The entire nature of the left/right dichotomy in modern societies happens to be an outgrowth of the particular fallout of the French Revolution, not some unalterable natural law. There's thousands of years for societies to develop in entirely different ways, with entirely different ideals and governance and religions and philosophies.
 
Last edited:
First priority for road building would likely be extending the present coast road up to Pylos and then Garnae, as well as a road to Salapia and then Herdonia, a road to Sannape, a road to Turai, and a road to Hyria. This isn't meant so much for trade as it is to allow swift movement of soldiers between our tributaries and allies, although the inevitable increase in trade with the interior will certainly be welcome.

Probably would be a project worked on over the course of a number of winters, since that would be the time of year where we'd have enough labor available to do all the excavation, grading, stonehauling, and paving required. Lower priority than getting a proper water, sewer and storm drain network set up of course. If we want to get really fancy, we might even want to use diving bells or a cofferdam so that we can push the sewer outlet just a little bit offshore.
 
Is the dream of replacing San Marino as the oldest continuing polity in the world realistic? Or wanting want Eretria to make it to where the Eretrian citizen militia is having a standoff with Benito Mussolini's Blackshirt volunteer divisions.
...considering how many butterflies we've already unleashed, the idea that there would be any of those things to stand off against is utterly mindboggling. Seriously, I get that utterly shitty alternate histories seem to think that you can massively alter societies and not actually alter anything, but what in the world makes you think that Cetashwayo is that sort of author? Is it the rigorous attention to ripple effects? The stern dedication to avoiding ahistorical injections of anachronistic concepts?

(The first part isn't objectionable at all, surviving for a long time is simply a goal, but the second one is... just what)
Godwinson, let's give kilopi a break. It may be unrealistic to imagine that Mussolini, personally, will be born in this timeline and found blackshirts and take over Italy.

But at least this goofy idea is cool and heartwarming.

Leukos the Accountant:

"Hermesdora, I know not why you tell me of this dream of standing in battle against the overweening slave-soldiers of this mysterious future tyrant, the buffoon lacking arete who seeks to impose his will over the Hellenes. But it is well."

[grins]

[grins differently]

"Now, want a quick lesson in petteia?"
 
Godwinson, let's give kilopi a break. It may be unrealistic to imagine that Mussolini, personally, will be born in this timeline and found blackshirts and take over Italy.

But at least this goofy idea is cool and heartwarming.

Leukos the Accountant:

"Hermesdora, I know not why you tell me of this dream of standing in battle against the overweening slave-soldiers of this mysterious future tyrant, the buffoon lacking arete who seeks to impose his will over the Hellenes. But it is well."

[grins]

[grins differently]

"Now, want a quick lesson in petteia?"
As we all know, Mussolini is actually gestating deep below the surface of the earth in his Pod, waiting for the moment of his dread, second rate awakening.
 
probably because it gives them an opportunity to spend time with guys who don't read Man's Life, lol

I had thought that might be a factor also... I doubt Man's Life would be telling its readers so though!

Well, he was the best military commander the Greek world had ever seen, so if he hadn't died, he'd probably have continued his conquests in some form, likely died in short order of said chronic malaria, but left behind a semi-stable empire. He died at the worst possible time for him to die — if he'd lived a bit longer and his son had been born, he might have established an actual succession.

That's debatable. Read the biography of Nader Shah sometime. He started off a much nicer chap than Alexander, and malaria turned him into an absolute disaster. Of course, it's not for sure than Alexander did have malaria, but he was very ill, had lost his best friend/lover, lost his favourite horse, been defeated, felt betrayed by his army and had a bad temper and a drinking problem even before all that had started. Other rulers who were disappointed, alcoholic and bad tempered generally have led their realms into bad times.

it might well benefit from an Augustus

If things get bad, yeah, better an Augustus than the alternatives.

______

With regards to the trade debate, I am of the camp that sees the Illyrian trade as being worthwhile.

Some points I didn't see anyone else mentioning:

1) Illyrian pirates dominated the Adriatic for much of the period, essentially shutting it down for major trade. The battle of the 50 masts opened the Adriatic for us but not permanently. The pirates will recover. Seizing the islands and peninsulas of Dalmatia would be a permanent solution to the pirate problem, and also open new lands for farming, fishing and forestry. That said, don't expect this to be easy. The Dalmatian coast is a maze of channels and the native pirates have a big advantage attacking invaders in this maze (why they lasted so long, until Rome came along, no-one had the resources and ambition to take the job on).

2) Eretria is actually very well positioned to take advantage of the Adriatic trade. While the ports may need upgrading, Eretria's natural advantages mean that if the city keeps investing in its infrastructure, it can be the major port in the region for thousands of years. Further, people need to remember that ships in this period are not as seaworthy as later ships and the Mediterranean is also a dangerous sea to sail. As such, trade routes are not as long ranged as we're used to. Eretria is actually at a pretty convenient stopping off point for trade coming from Sicily, mainland Hellas, Illyria and the Po valley. In other words, we are well positioned to make Eretria a crossroads for sea trade for a long time to come.

fasquardon
 
...considering how many butterflies we've already unleashed, the idea that there would be any of those things to stand off against is utterly mindboggling. Seriously, I get that utterly shitty alternate histories seem to think that you can massively alter societies and not actually alter anything, but what in the world makes you think that Cetashwayo is that sort of author? Is it the rigorous attention to ripple effects? The stern dedication to avoiding ahistorical injections of anachronistic concepts?

(The first part isn't objectionable at all, surviving for a long time is simply a goal, but the second one is... just what)
I mean seriously, sometimes you just want to see when the point is to have a cool fight, does it really matter if an Eretrian soldier is fighting the black shirts or a British Navy Captain fighting Napoleon on Dragonback? We just want to punch bad guys. :V
 
I mean seriously, sometimes you just want to see when the point is to have a cool fight, does it really matter if an Eretrian soldier is fighting the black shirts or a British Navy Captain fighting Napoleon on Dragonback? We just want to punch bad guys. :V
Yes, that would be awesome, I just need my nonsense to make sense! :V
 
With regards to the trade debate, I am of the camp that sees the Illyrian trade as being worthwhile.

Some points I didn't see anyone else mentioning:

1) Illyrian pirates dominated the Adriatic for much of the period, essentially shutting it down for major trade. The battle of the 50 masts opened the Adriatic for us but not permanently. The pirates will recover. Seizing the islands and peninsulas of Dalmatia would be a permanent solution to the pirate problem, and also open new lands for farming, fishing and forestry. That said, don't expect this to be easy. The Dalmatian coast is a maze of channels and the native pirates have a big advantage attacking invaders in this maze (why they lasted so long, until Rome came along, no-one had the resources and ambition to take the job on).

2) Eretria is actually very well positioned to take advantage of the Adriatic trade. While the ports may need upgrading, Eretria's natural advantages mean that if the city keeps investing in its infrastructure, it can be the major port in the region for thousands of years. Further, people need to remember that ships in this period are not as seaworthy as later ships and the Mediterranean is also a dangerous sea to sail. As such, trade routes are not as long ranged as we're used to. Eretria is actually at a pretty convenient stopping off point for trade coming from Sicily, mainland Hellas, Illyria and the Po valley. In other words, we are well positioned to make Eretria a crossroads for sea trade for a long time to come.

fasquardon

Another potential benefit is that by promoting Greek interest in the area by making it both less hazardous and more lucrative to travel to, we may promote Greek migration to the Adriatic. Since Eretria and her Epulian League are pretty strong and influential in the Adriatic and we have sailors going all over the area anyway, we're liable to know about any newly created territories pretty quickly and can operate on that to leverage our power and wealth to expand our influence relatively easily if we give the fledgling cities a helping hand (since they do have a tendency to starve or have difficulty in the first couple years).

I am a bit worried that we'll be too distracted to really focus on this path, though. The piracy threat has been getting worse and worse, and it seems that we'll be focusing on expansion against the Dauni before we're going to have officials willing to deploy the navy against pirates- and that's all while Syracuse is saber-rattling and building up for next time with a vendetta against us. We're going to be up against 2/3 of the starting major enemies we could have chosen from now on it looks like, and they're all the ones furthest away from the Adriatic. Furthermore our only major allies in Thurii & the Sikeliote League are not really helped by us pursuing an Adriatic hegemony. So it seems like we're going to have some fairly split focuses should we pursue this, unfortunately.

I think that the best Adriatic starting selection would have been to go with of course the Drako faction but also enmity with Korinth and alliance with Athens. Korinth would have started out with some Adriatic territory like Epidamnos that we could have liberated for sway while the Athenians were bullying them for their lunch money (provided that they and Kerkyra were having the same success they've enjoyed here), and we could leverage the vast Athenian network to really get some fine trade and colonists lined up. The situation in Italy would have us more isolated, but also Syracuse wouldn't be incredibly keen on mulching our bones from the tricksy coalition building.

The best Italian set-up might have been to swap out our Drako faction for the Antipatrids, since we just keep on getting beaten over the head with how we've let ties that would have helped us out in having a more solid coalition versus Syracuse or avoiding war with Taras were neglected in favor of that trade money we've been rolling in.

There again, there could have been Exoria Eretria and Carthage against Taras as public enemy number one. With the Dauni being wrecked to limit the potential fronts and Taras having been subjected to some horrible mistreatment by Carthage, it seems that local opposition to a more militarily capable Eretria might have been a more daunting prospect.
 
Some questions:

- Are there any roads between Eretria and the Peuketii cities or Egnatia? Or the other League cities? If not, can we expand or build them as a project?

- Let's say that we want to occupy an island in Illyria in order to build a colony or a trading center. Mechanically, it is possible? It is expensive?
 
Some questions:

- Are there any roads between Eretria and the Peuketii cities or Egnatia? Or the other League cities? If not, can we expand or build them as a project?

- Let's say that we want to occupy an island in Illyria in order to build a colony or a trading center. Mechanically, it is possible? It is expensive?
Both are possible, though I think that under the new Demes-system we can no longer just go for these things directly via write-in. Instead we probably have to keep electing the faction that is most likely to prioritise what we want.
For road systems I suspect we would have to repeatedly pick the Proboulos from the Demos Exoria. Their general program seems to be infrastructure and barbaroi intergration. More roads are probably close behind the sewer system in their "Great Works"-priority list.
For more Adriatic colonies we would have to keep picking the Xenoparakletor from the Demos Drakonia. Last election they wanted to found "proto-Venice", which would have given us a luxury trade route. IMO other possible colonies such as Issa, Pharos or Pula are probably further down the priority list, since they would not boost trade as much. Rather they would serve to secure established Adriatic shipping against pirates.
 
Some questions:

- Are there any roads between Eretria and the Peuketii cities or Egnatia? Or the other League cities? If not, can we expand or build them as a project?
What roads exist are probably basically just tracks. Paths that lots of people and pack animals follow, that are physically convenient and safe in the "you won't accidentally slip and fall into a ravine trying to go this way" sense. They almost certainly don't have any pavement whatsoever except possibly when passing through the towns themselves. Notably this means that carts can't use them when the ground is wet.

Improvement along the roadside is probably minimal to nonexistent, except perhaps for brush clearance as a security measure that doubles as "oh hey, easy access to firewood!" Markers to show where the path is might exist, and there may be a few places where someone has established something (an inn or small village) that focuses in part on services for travelers. Or there might not. It would depend.

- Let's say that we want to occupy an island in Illyria in order to build a colony or a trading center. Mechanically, it is possible? It is expensive?
The way @Cetashwayo runs his games, such an action is possible mechanically, but it would basically require us to support the right choices for the proboulos and xenoparakletor. Doing it as a user motion ("WHO WILL LIFT MY ROCK?") might not fly, simply because it would represent a big diversion of effort from the priorities of the faction-aligned governments.

Eretria is in the process of evolving into a representative democracy, rather than a direct one, arguably- to some extent we get only what is politically possible for the politicians we elect, not the things the ekklesia (the quest voters) might vote for in theory.

The expense would no doubt be considerable, but the exact costs would depend on how big a place we wanted to establish. The big problem with occupying an island off the coast of Illyria (which is a fancy word for "pretty much the entire northeast coast of the Adriatic once you get north of the Greek part)... Well, the problem with occupying such an island is that the same swarms of pirates who are causing us so many problems will be very happy to plunder the colony. It would probably have to be fortified and supported by us on an ongoing basis to be secure.
 
OFF: long-time fan of the quest, I hope I can contribute :)

I also support the Adriatic Trade Plan, in fact I envisioned a trader character with Etruscan connections. Eretria has a luxury (pottery) trade route with them and that is sadly underrepresented.
To kickstart my character: @Cetashwayo what is our current connections with Kyme? They were fairly amicable, right? Also, what is our disposition with the northern and southern etruscan leagues (if the Capua area is still in etruscan hands, last time they looked for help, maybe we can use this, to gain an ally there or strenghten Kyme)? And lasty, having a foreigner wife isn't really a reputable thing, right? And childrens of such a marriage are not citizens, am I correct?
 
- Let's say that we want to occupy an island in Illyria in order to build a colony or a trading center. Mechanically, it is possible? It is expensive?
It seems potentially possible, at least. Picking the Drakonian faction netted us the colony of Ankon as well as trading posts (unmarked on the map) at Iadar in Liburnia, Etruscan Adria as well as Rhyzon (near Lissos in Illyria). This was done over a substantial period of putting Italian issues apart from the anti-Syracuse coalition on the backburner, though. The Drakonians were in favor of getting an Amber monopoly from the Enetoi via a trading post in modern day Venice, raiding pirates and upgrading the harbor to make more trade routes (and thus trade posts) possible, but they've been defeated pretty thoroughly in the recent elections and all of those policies probably need to be implemented before further Adriatic colonization/trade becomes possible. As to the costs of that, raiding was set to cost 52 talents (with potential to bring in up to 30 talents and reducing piracy for ten years) though it may be more now that the piracy is having more and more time to develop and establish itself. The Enetoi probably need some hefty bribing to grease their willingness to allow us a trade colony and the expanded harbor was to cost some 550 talents spread over five years, after which we would have two more trade routes and a trade route limit incremented by ten.

OFF: long-time fan of the quest, I hope I can contribute :)

I also support the Adriatic Trade Plan, in fact I envisioned a trader character with Etruscan connections. Eretria has a luxury (pottery) trade route with them and that is sadly underrepresented.
To kickstart my character: @Cetashwayo what is our current connections with Kyme? They were fairly amicable, right? Also, what is our disposition with the northern and southern etruscan leagues (if the Capua area is still in etruscan hands, last time they looked for help, maybe we can use this, to gain an ally there or strenghten Kyme)? And lasty, having a foreigner wife isn't really a reputable thing, right? And childrens of such a marriage are not citizens, am I correct?
I think Kymai relations were positive but they're really far away so that's probably decayed to positive neutrality if anything. We should be on pretty good terms with the northern Etruscans as they've permitted trade in pottery and possibly olive oil (not sure where in "Northern Italy" we're sending that too, precisely), but I don't think the southern Etruscans have all too much reason to care about us. Bear in mind that the southern Etruscans and Kymai seem to be somewhat at odds, the first news update says that Kymai have been plagued by "interior shepherds" raiding far inside and growing more confident and given their location I think they must mean the Etruscans.
 
Last edited:
The way to look at it isn't that the Drakonids got suddenly wiped out electorally. It's that after 34 uninterrupted years of pushing their policies, Eretria found itself with unaddressed issues outside their competencies that needed dealt with.
 
Yeah. As @Kipeci notes, we're going to see a lot more success if we choose a path to focus on, whatever that may be -- I think there's a broad consensus that the Dauni are the primary medium-term target.

As an electorate, I think we want to weigh the demes based on that metric, and try to avoid distractions from that goal if at all possible.
 
I think Kymai relations were positive but they're really far away so that's probably decayed to positive neutrality if anything. We should be on pretty good terms with the northern Etruscans as they've permitted trade in pottery and possibly olive oil (not sure where in "Northern Italy" we're sending that too, precisely), but I don't think the southern Etruscans have all too much reason to care about us. Bear in mind that the southern Etruscans and Kymai seem to be somewhat at odds, the first news update says that Kymai have been plagued by "interior shepherds" raiding far inside and growing more confident and given their location I think they must mean the Etruscans.

The Etruscans are not shepherds, and they are also under attack.
 
Frankly, if we can annex Salapia and any other "volunteer" Dauni to our hegemony, that should be enough to be satisfied with. Unlike with the Messapii, chasing after the entirety of the Dauni lands just pulls us further into the problems of the interior and the tribes therein.
A rump buffer state serves our interests.
 
Also, re where in Northern Italy you are trading with the Etruscans, all of the lower Po Valley is Etruscan territory and they founded several modern Italian cities like Bologna (Felsina) or Mantua (Mutina).
 
I'd say the Dauni are the primary near-term target, really. Medium-term is setting up a permanent presence in Illyria (probably at Salona aka modern Split, because it's an excellent harbor in a good location that doesn't already have a substantial native town sitting on it) from which to destroy pirates, quarry limestone, cut timber, and trade with the inland tribes for gold and silver.

Long-term goals would be to dominate trade in and exert naval control over the Adriatic, tie the whole of Epulia together into a single polity centered on Eretria, and support the Sicelian and Italiote Leagues against external pressures from Syracuse and the Brutii/Lucani/etc. Also to rebuild our city into both a major cultural center within the Hellenic world and the most important one in the Adriatic region. Theaters, baths, academies, gymnasia, temples, the works.

Eventual industrial developments would also be part of this; people across the Hellenic world and beyond drinking Eretrian wine from Eretrian bowls that was poured from Eretrian jugs, with the ceramics decorated with Eretrian designs and themes, would itself be a statement of our cultural and economic power.
 
Frankly, if we can annex Salapia and any other "volunteer" Dauni to our hegemony, that should be enough to be satisfied with. Unlike with the Messapii, chasing after the entirety of the Dauni lands just pulls us further into the problems of the interior and the tribes therein.
A rump buffer state serves our interests.
Just note that the two Dauni settlements that have directly asked for our annexation are in a segment between the Ofanto and another river that they share with the Dauni Capitol.

And there are no natural barriers outside of that, they're right on the doorstep of the enemy administrative and cultural centre, to properly secure the region we'd have to burn it to the ground. Considering that three other cities were easily bribed to force the King, who is known for being politically ruthless and bloodthirsty in his intrigue, into staying neutral in our war, it might just be easier to put a Salapian Dynasty in Auscula as a Tributary, overthrowing the Arpian Dynasty in control there now. If we give them enough autonomy outside of their Southern regions, with low tribute, we might just be able to snatch the entire Kingdom with minimal issue.
 
Last edited:
Also, re where in Northern Italy you are trading with the Etruscans, all of the lower Po Valley is Etruscan territory and they founded several modern Italian cities like Bologna (Felsina) or Mantua (Mutina).
Ideally, I'd like to push our hegemony out to the Tinky Winky Mountains.
Just note that the two Dauni settlements that have directly asked for our annexation are in a segment between the Ofanto and another river that they share with the Dauni Capitol.

And there are no natural barriers outside of that, they're right on the doorstep of the enemy administrative and cultural centre, to properly secure the region we'd have to burn it to the ground. Considering that three other cities were easily bribed to force the King, who is known for being politically ruthless and bloodthirsty in his intrigue, into staying neutral in our war, it might just be easier to put a Salapian Dynasty in Auscula as a Tributary, overthrowing the Arpian Dynasty in control there now. If we give them enough autonomy outside of their Southern regions, with low tribute, we might just be able to snatch the entire Kingdom with minimal issue.
A Dauni rump that's lost two or three of its component cities to us is a rather less formidable threat, set against our enhanced hegemony. Sure, having someone more amenable on the throne than the current occupant would be handy, but not if we then have to send troops up into the hinterland to help protect them from the Samnites.
 
Back
Top