Thus when he abuses his position, the people revolt, and because we are the overlords, even though nominally that revolt is against us as well as Artahias is our puppet King in their eyes, they turn to us for protection.

Pretty sure it wasn't his abuses that led to this rebellion but the ineptitude of the local nobles as well as us! settling the Kretans in Brention and thus stiring up the local population, against his advice I might add. So I find it strange to use this rebellion as a sign of his ineptidue of a ruler when to a large degree we are the ones causing this.

In my opinion, as I laid out before, this is short term thinking that doesn't consider the benefits of subjugating the Dauni. While peace with the Dauni does grant us a buffer zone, it's unreliable and it can be removed by either of the Samnite factions that border them. Conversely, by making the Dauni our vassals we actively present a force sufficient to deter the Samnites from going to war with them, and by extension us, which encourages them to engage in diplomacy with us.

I just don't get how a weakened and disunited Dauni, of which exactly those parts bordering the Samnite will be most hostile and most ignored by us, is supposed be a stronger bulwark against Samnite aggression than a united tribe with at least a semi-stable government. I mean like their guy threatens it seems like to me that they would just as happily make common cause with the Samnites then defend us against them if we war against them and in many ways that is exactly how Campania fell (and how the northern Etruscans are morphing into a gallic people). I mean sure if actual war broke out we would probably intervene but that isn't the issue with Samnites and Co and instead we in all likelihood would face of constant raiding and slow migration into our territory which we are ill equipped to deal with. And sure we could do the normal thing and try and conduct a punishment expedition against the Samnites when they angered us enough but that just means we have to fight them on their hometurf and probably won't have much success unless we are willing and able to invest the insane amounts of resources and time to actually pacify the Samnites. I mean you really think the Dauni of the hinterlands, where their king has had their base, are going to be happily die to defend what little we will have left them while we exploit their salt and at best strengthen the economy of the few cities near them?

And if the Samnite ever decide to conquer them that would just put us in a perfect position to snap up the lands we are actually interested in and maybe install a friendly tributary up north that doesn't blame us for the downfall of their people.
 
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I just don't get how a weakened and disunited Dauni, of which exactly those parts bordering the Samnite will be most hostile and most ignored by us, is supposed be a stronger bulwark against Samnite aggression than a united tribe with at least a semi-stable government. I mean like their guy threatens it seems like to me that they would just as happily make common cause with the Samnites then defend us against them if we war against them and in many ways that is exactly how Campania fell (and how the northern Etruscans are morphing into a gallic people). I mean sure if actual war broke out we would probably intervene but that isn't the issue with Samnites and Co and instead we in all likelihood would face of constant raiding and slow migration into our territory which we are ill equipped to deal with. And sure we could do the normal thing and try and conduct a punishment expedition against the Samnites when they angered us enough but that just means we have to fight them on their hometurf and probably won't have much success unless we are willing and able to invest the insane amounts of ressources and time to actually pacify the Samnites. I mean you really think the Dauni of the hinterlands, where their king has had their base, are going to be happily die to defend what little we will have left them while we exploit their salt and at best strengthen the economy of the few cities near them?
You're making the mistake of assuming the Samnites would willingly choose to provoke the combined might of the Dauni, Peuketii, Messapii, Eretria, the League and our allies rather than seeking easier gains on the western coast of Italia.

The benefit, one of them, in subjugating the Dauni is that we as their overlord and the forces we can bring to bear represent a significant enough deterrent to the Samnites that it makes more sense for them to continue to look to the west rather than to the Dauni on the east. Further, once the Dauni actually are our vassals (and yes for the purposes of this discussion I'm assuming they are) and we have a vassal bordering the Samnites we have a significant enough reason to actually make contact with them. The Samnites, unlike the Dauni imo, are one of the factions we want to deal with via diplomacy rather than war.

The reason that we have an opening to do this now is because the Samnites and the Lucani have just sent off all their excess men and conquered Campania so there's a period of time - probably at least a decade - where they won't be raiding or seeking to found any new settlements. This means there is the time - and it is a limited window - to both vassalise the Dauni and make contact with the Hirpini and Pentri tribes within the Samnite Confederation to ensure they don't seek war with the Dauni and by extension us.

In this way we can take actions that mean the Dauni cities who boarder the Samnites won't have to fight and die for us because having the Dauni as a vassal gives us the reason we need to proactively make contact with the Samnites and makes the Dauni an unappealing enough of a target that war simply isn't in either of our interests.

On the other hand, if the Dauni remain independent they are an appealing target and likely will face the ongoing raiding you describe.
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Pain [Eretria will continue to recieve options relating to war against the Dauni, there will be no easing of hostilities].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].
Was convinced since the generosity argument, just dragging my feet.

Not budging on the Dauni though. It is not that I do not trust them, I just really want to fight them. It would be another chance of glory and loot!
 
Oh dear, let me be clear I didn't mean to generalize the Dauni as untrustworthy and backstabbing, I meant that I didn't trust their King to keep the peace. Sorry if I accidentally contributed to the soft bigotry, that was not my intention. In my opinion, so long as Ausculos and pro-Ausculos nobles are in power, we will be backstabbed by Ausculos, who has been proven to be an untrustworthy person.
 
Oh dear, let me be clear I didn't mean to generalize the Dauni as untrustworthy and backstabbing, I meant that I didn't trust their King to keep the peace. Sorry if I accidentally contributed to the soft bigotry, that was not my intention. In my opinion, so long as Ausculos and pro-Ausculos nobles are in power, we will be backstabbed by Ausculos, who has been proven to be an untrustworthy person.

It is okay. As long as people are aware and peddle away from the line.
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Refuse the Treaty [Taras will be extremely grateful, Athenai will be unhappy, Eretrian grain trade may be superseded in favor of the Bosporos].

Fuck it, changing vote. Hopefully this will spread democracy to the Hyrians and to their cultural compatriots, in time.
 
It is definitely a line to not cross and I have tried to clearly stay on the right side of it OOC, by attempting to explain how what I tought was a good idea for Eretria IC didn't change the fact that I sympathised and empathised with the Hyrians OOC and by doing my best to make clear my arguments where aimed at Ausculos and the political regime he represented rather then the Dauni as a people and a culture.

If I didn't do well enough I do appologise and I would try to make those distinctions clearer in the future.
 
[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
 
It's making near- permanent hostility the status quo.
In that case, time to stop lurking for once:

[X] [Hyria] Grant Hyria autonomy and Artahias allyship [+5,500 freemen providing tributes and levies including heavier infantry, Artahias becomes a loyal Eretrian ally rather than vassal].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
 
I want to convince the thread to work with Athens and sign their treaty of friendship. Below, I will lay out my reasoning:

First, what is this treaty? It has two main prongs, the first being trade and the second being a declaration of friendship.

The Trade Situation:
The first prong of the treaty is pretty obvious in what it wants to do: Athens is a metropolis and has alienated most of their neighbours. They are desperately in need of a secure source of grain. If they don't have that, then the city will starve and the lower classes will rise up and lynch the aristocrat dominated democracy within the city. This grain is a matter of both physical, but also regime survival for the Athenian government. If their source of grain is insecure, it means that they personally are in danger and need to take steps to minimize that.

Athens, by putting this treaty into effect, is trying to reassure themselves that their grain is secure. They've seen us be buddy-buddy with Spartan aligned Taras and they know we keep them at arm's length. If we were to decide to throw our lot in with Taras, Sparta, and Korinth, then that means one of the few friendly places in the Mediterranean will disappear; right now, aside from us, Athens only has 'allies' kept in line with a hard-heeled boot. They have very little reason to be trustful of the world at large (even if its their highhandedness that's causing a lot of the diplomacy problems they're experiencing — Athens doesn't know this, however).

If we deny Athens this treaty, then they take it as us playing the fence. We currently act as trade partners now, so why shouldn't we formalize this relationship? They're going to be wondering what we're thinking, if we're reliable or of Spartan and Korinthian poison has been dripping into our ear. It could very easily appear that we're just using Athens and we're planning to betray them at the most opportune moment. It makes logical sense, then, that they should sever trade ties and seek grain somewhere else; if they don't, they're putting their lives and fate in the hands of people who are deliberately trying to distance themselves from Athens. How else should they take denying a treaty of trade after reaching out and establishing mutual proxenoi? It obviously means that the trade isn't worth that much to Eretria.

Declaring Friendship:
The second prong of the Athenian treaty is a declaration of friendship. Note that this does not bind us in any way militarily to Athens' cause or obligate us to take any particular subsequent course of diplomatic action. This treaty is basically a declaration that both of our poleis have good bellyfeels towards each other.

As far as the Athenians can tell, this is basically the status quo. They're not offering us anything that is not already true; we are friends and trade partners with Athens. They've indirectly been benefiting us by curb-stomping Korinth upon the oceans and preventing them from asserting their traditional Adriatic Hegemony. Korinth has been utterly trashed by Athens and is slowly falling apart, entirely to our benefit. When Athens' enemies are destroyed, we benefit. When their enemies grow, we are imperiled. Look at the Demos Drakonia's Slate this election; they've been building a navy, just to oppose Korinth and their inevitable return. We are in an unofficial arms race and compete with one of Athen's main rivals.

Even locally, we like Athens. The only reason why this treaty is not a no-brainer is because it makes Taras nervous. It isn't a break of the Treaty we established with them, but it bends the spirit. It specifically 'disturbed' them, because they're not sure if we intend to keep the peace. Considering we still have enforced neutrality with them due to the treaty established with Metapontion, we have a bit of room to still reassure them. We're in enforced neutrality for the next 10 years, we have time to reach out to Taras.


Benefits to Signing
  1. Athens is Grateful... and Dependent. If we reassure them that their grain is secure coming from us, then they will be very thankful; it's a low-key matter of survival to them. As the grain trade expands, Athens will even become dependent on us. Right now, 2 Staple grain routes is something they can manage to move eventually, 7 routes will not be easily replaceable. We can hold starvation over Athens' head if we need a get-out-of-jail free card with them.
  2. Trade will explode. @Cetashwayo has said that we could get up to 5 more grain trade routes relatively quickly. We may be even able to swing an expansion in luxury trade goods as well. Athens produces the finest pottery in the world and that is still in demand among our Adriatic barbaroi and Etruscan contacts. A few more Staple or Luxury trade routes would bring in an immense amount of cash, but even 5 Staple trade routes is huge on its own, almost 40 talents/year. The money would pay for any one of:
    1. 10 additional active triremes and 15 reserve triremes. It would bring us up to 50 + 45 triremes versus Korinth's 90. It would be risky and expensive, but it means we could achieve numerical parity with them in a pinch. Our Adriatic League would be secured.
    2. Double the number of people employed in the Kleos Exoria and Hieros Ekdromoi, allowing us a large, flexible, elite standing army.
    3. Replace all of the income we've lost the last few turns, allowing us to continue our Great Work building binge every 4 years.
  3. Korinth remains suppressed by Athens. If Athens comes to depend on grain imports from us, then they will, of their own accord, continue to suppress Korinth. This allows our Adriatic Hegemony to grow and it stops Korinth from contesting us until we're really dug in. Korinth can't contest Athens on the waves so they won't even bother to try. This also means that their sailors and rowers will have their skills grow rusty, compounding our existing naval advantages of more skilled crews.
The Costs of Accepting
  1. Taras is disturbed. This will increase the standing of their revanchist faction because it betrays the spirit of our past treaty, but not the word. We can oppose this by trying to negotiate with our Xenoparkletor, but that can fail.
    • Note: if Taras takes to the extreme of going to war with us, we're better able to fight the war than they are. Any fighting will occur either primarily in Messapii land or Taras' land. We're likely to lose less directly in any sustained conflict. There's nothing stopping us from turning the Messapii into a hell of guerrilla warfare and chewing up the Tarantine army before they reach our lands.
    • Taras going to war also can't occur for another 10 years because Metapontion and Thurii are guaranteeing a sacred peace between us. Taras couldn't fight that, so there's time for them to cool down before they might declare war.
  2. We might be drawn closer to the current Mainland War. Diminishing this con, however, is:
    1. Sparta has no navy.
    2. We're already naval rivals with Korinth. We've already pissed them off by expanding aggressively into the Adriatic, their traditional hegemony. They're also being suppressed by Athens right now so their anger is impotent for what is looking to be a long time, a decade more at least. They likely won't immediately declare war on us once they're freed from Athenian dominance, but they will immediately start throwing their weight around.

The Benefits of Rejecting the Treaty:
  1. Taras likes us a lot. @Cetashwayo has said that Taras would likely consider some type of closer union after rejecting the treaty with Athens. I suspect that this union would be some type of formal military alliance. It means a lot to them to slam the door in Athens' face and they'll likely work with us to keep Athens away. On the other hand, this means:
    1. Accepting an alliance with Taras will render Athens apoplectic. Taras is a soft rival of theirs, aligned with Sparta and Korinth. If you think Athens is fickle and dangerous, they're also going to be pissed with us once we receive the benefit of improved relations with Taras. Allying with Taras and rejecting a friendship treaty with Athens is going to be a profound insult and even a betrayal, as they see it.
    2. Taras benefits a lot more from an alliance with us than we do with them. Taras is currently aligning with Thurii and Rhegion. If you add us into that mix, then it's likely we could bring all of Italia to heel. Taras would crush Metapontion, Thurii would expand against Krotone, and Rhegion would be able to finish off Lokri Epixephyrii and take all of the other free Greek cities in their neighbourhood.
      • We don't benefit at all from this arrangement. We could grow on our own, but a Tarantine alliance can't help us grow. We might be able to swing closer to an Italian Union, but relative to the other powers, they would gain in strength significantly while we remain stagnant.
  2. We remain slightly more distant to the mainland war.
    • Provided our 'closer relationship' with Taras isn't taken as a betrayal, inspiring Athens to launch the Epulian Expedition in place of the Sicilian Expedition.
The Costs of Rejecting the Treaty
  1. Our trade with Athens could dry up. Since we're not going to expand the amount of grain we ship them and offer guarantees of future delivery, Athens will look elsewhere. We could very easily lose 2 Staple trade routes to the Hellespont trade, about 16 talents/year at our current Tariff Efficiency.
    • This is also likely to have negative effects on our two Luxury Trade Routes with Athens. Right now, we're trading in Athenian pottery and Byssos Cloth with them. If those trade routes are imperiled due to deteriorating relations, that's 26.5 talents/year that we could lose.
  2. Athens could do nothing. What I mean, is that Athens could decide to stop suppressing Korinth on the waves. We know OTL where Eretria Eshkata did not exist, Athens never bothered to secure Kerkyra in order to counter and bottle up the Korinthian navy. If they decide they don't need to bother any more due to not needing to secure an unreliable source of grain, they could simply leave and allow us to face Korinth ourselves. They'll still fight Korinth around Lakedemonia, but they don't need to fight them all the way north at the entrance of the Adriatic; they would no longer have any interests there.
    • Our Adriatic hegemony would immediately be put at risk in this scenario. We can't take Korinth's navy at the moment and the loss of trade revenue could mean we're forced to further cut back.
      • The State of the Mediterranean Update event acknowledges that if Korinth had a free hand, our Adriatic dreams would instantly be crushed.
  3. Athens potentially perceives our actions as a betrayal. This is compounded if we decide to pursue closer relations with Spartan ally, Taras. Athens, OTL, decided to engage in the Sicillian Expedition to try to acquire safe, reliable sources of grain; to acquire additional silver coinage through tribute/looting; and to try and topple the Spartan friendly government of Syrakousai. Syrakousai was friendly to Sparta, but that was it; they weren't allies. If we 1) possess a lot of grain, 2) have a lot of wealth, and 3) align softly with Sparta, we could be the next Athenian target.

It's for all of these reasons that I would like the thread to consider and vote for:

[] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].

As their response to Athens' treaty.
 
If I didn't do well enough I do appologise and I would try to make those distinctions clearer in the future.

If there's a problem I'll always let people know. I can understand why this particular issue emerged but wanted to head it off. I don't mean any ill will to @McLuvin but it was going into a direction that I was absolutely uncomfortable with.

And if people feel my writing has these problems then let me know. I might not agree with you but I'd appreciate it nonetheless.
 
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I think I've discussed this point enough by now considering I've been doing nothing but arguing for not accepting the peace deal with the Dauni for the last two days now and if people still wish to make peace with them for some reason then well, atleast I tried. But let's give it another go shall we?

There seems to be some idea here that if we do not accept the peace with the Dauni that it means that we will immediately go to war with then, which is not the case. We are simply keeping the option to to do so open for now. We can wait a year or two before going to war, the important thing is that we do and do so while the Dauni still aren't that much of a threat to us. I simply cannot see anyway in which they could win or even make this into a phyrric victory for us should we choose the right approach to the war.

I'd also like to point out again that accepting the deal now, when we have been deliverd the heads the nobles that alligned with Eretria will be seen as the Dauni King having forced Eretria into peace with him, just think about how that will be perceived by our allies, vassals and other neutral factions around us. I myself would rather not have to go to war right now but when needs must?

The Dauni will always present a threat to Eretria even in peace because they will be a faction we share border with who we have a history of hostility with, a difference in culture and social structure that is just too different for us to try and Hellenize through peace or any soft approach. Let us conquer Auscula, Herdonia, Salapia and maybe throw in Arpi as a bonus if we can before making peace with what remains of the Dauni, if what people are concerned about is the length and cost such a campaign would take if our goal was to completely conquer the Dauni.

I just do not see how peace with them in anyway benefits us in the long term, it's such a short sighted option to accept it just so we can focus on other things first which doesn't even make that much sense if you take into consideration that even if we can put the Dauni matter to rest for a while with peace, we will always be forced to keep an eye on them, always looking over our shoulders to make sure they do not betray Eretria, something that with their current King is the most likely outcome btw. I say we deal with them once and for all and then we are free forever more to focus on other matters without our focus being drawn to or borders again, atleast for a while.
 
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I will say the debate and discussion so far has been pretty impressive even by usual MG standards. A lot of effort being expended by everyone and I appreciate it.
 
I think I've discussed this point enough by now considering I've been doing nothing but arguing for not accepting the peace deal with the Dauni for the last two days now and if people still wish to make peace with them for some reason then well, atleast I tried. But let's give it another go shall we?

There seems to be some idea here that if we do not accept the peace with the Dauni that it means that we will immediately go to war with then, which is not the case.
No, we won't, and arguably that's the problem.

We'll be looking at a protracted situation in which the Dauni have even MORE time to fortify and entrench themselves as a costly opponent to conquer. We'll be worrying about them jumping us from the north over and over, every time we face some other enemy. And they'll continue to indulge in dickery among the Messapii and Peuketii, an area where they enjoy massive advantages by speaking the same language and having more cultural similarity to the people they're trying to stir up.

Our relationship with the Dauni has been a constant source of inconvenience and opportunity costs for a long time, and that is precisely because we are in an ongoing state of hostility with them. They have agency and rationality themselves; they KNOW we're contemplating war with them, so they do everything in their power to make such a war costly and to give us too many other problems to seriously consider conquering them. The recent killings will only consolidate Ausculos' power to do so.

If we swear peace with him, and he keeps his word? This ends. We gain greater security and trade opportunities.

If we swear peace with him, and he breaks his word? Then we finally have grounds to drain the abscess that is our relationship with the Dauni, in a war.

But ongoing continuous "no war no peace" isn't to our advantage. "Keeping our options open" is not profitable in and of itself.

We are simply keeping the option to to do so open for now. We can wait a year or two before going to war, the important thing is that we do and do so while the Dauni still aren't that much of a threat to us. I simply cannot see anyway in which they could win or even make this into a phyrric victory for us should we choose the right approach to the war.
Remember that our net profit from the Dauni lands is going to be, at most, something like a few dozen talents per year for the foreseeable future. They don't have to make the victory "Pyrrhic" in the sense that it dooms Eretria, for it to be a bad choice to fight them. They just have to make it cost more than we can realistically recover from looting and exploiting Dauni land in a reasonable amount of time (say, a couple of generations).

That's not entirely out of the question, given how much it costs us to maintain an army in the field.
 
No, we won't, and arguably that's the problem.

We'll be looking at a protracted situation in which the Dauni have even MORE time to fortify and entrench themselves as a costly opponent to conquer. We'll be worrying about them jumping us from the north over and over, every time we face some other enemy. And they'll continue to indulge in dickery among the Messapii and Peuketii, an area where they enjoy massive advantages by speaking the same language and having more cultural similarity to the people they're trying to stir up.

It's why I said for a year or two only. Thats the maximum amount of time I believe we can give the Dauni before having to march on them.

Edit: You also seem to be again as most and even I do sometimes be looking only at the immediate monetary gain here, it might take a while for those profits we recieve from the conquerd Dauni lands to truly matter but to have them at all under our control is only just one of the many benefits, It would connect our lands better with Pylona Sinpontion and Garnea, increase the number of land directly under Eretrian control which we can hand out to our citizens, especialy soliders or veterans of past wars..but that's just an idea btw. Anyhow, the pros outweigh the cons.
 
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No, we won't, and arguably that's the problem.

We'll be looking at a protracted situation in which the Dauni have even MORE time to fortify and entrench themselves as a costly opponent to conquer. We'll be worrying about them jumping us from the north over and over, every time we face some other enemy. And they'll continue to indulge in dickery among the Messapii and Peuketii, an area where they enjoy massive advantages by speaking the same language and having more cultural similarity to the people they're trying to stir up.

Our relationship with the Dauni has been a constant source of inconvenience and opportunity costs for a long time, and that is precisely because we are in an ongoing state of hostility with them. They have agency and rationality themselves; they KNOW we're contemplating war with them, so they do everything in their power to make such a war costly and to give us too many other problems to seriously consider conquering them. The recent killings will only consolidate Ausculos' power to do so.

If we swear peace with him, and he keeps his word? This ends. We gain greater security and trade opportunities.

If we swear peace with him, and he breaks his word? Then we finally have grounds to drain the abscess that is our relationship with the Dauni, in a war.

But ongoing continuous "no war no peace" isn't to our advantage. "Keeping our options open" is not profitable in and of itself.
There are a number of issues I have with this. Firstly regarding their 'dickery' with the Messapii and Peuketii, while it's true that they hold an advantage over Eretria in that area do remember they wouldn't be working against us there. They would be working against the established Nobles and Kings of said kingdoms who they do not have an advantage over.

While the Dauni has been an ongoing problem that has caused us issues it doesn't, therefore, follow that the best option to that is a short term solution by accepting a peace with them. While that does bring an end to the immediate problems it does nothing for the longer-term concerns of us having an untrustworthy neighbour on our border. Additionally, as I think we all accept King Auscelos will break this peace if it's ever in his advantage to do so, simply making peace here doesn't remove the threat of them putting a knife in our back the next time we have to send troops elsewhere.

Moreover we also have to consider the opportunity costs of accepting peace, because they do exist and are substantial. The tribute might not on it's own be game-changing but when it's combined with the income from the salt it begins to look more respectable. Additionally we, and Garnae, Sipontion and Aufidenos would all benefit from gaining new lands. We are after all, out of public lands.

Beyond that, there remains the threat of the Samnites. As an independent Kingdom the Dauni represent a very appealing target for future Samnite expansion in 15-20 years when they next need more lands. A Dauni which is a vassal of Eretria is considerably less appealing, to put it mildly. We want the Samnites to continue focusing on the east and by vassalising the Dauni we ensure that happens. And also by gaining a border with the Samnites (through a vassal) we open the opportunity for diplomatic contact and trade with them during a period where they will not be raiding and expanding, this is the best opportunity to do so and presents a significant strategic win be removing the Samnites as a threat.

And lastly, you're right, a war will probably be costly. But at some point it's going to be necessary. At some point Eretria needs to learn how to siege. At some point Eretria needs to fight in a war that forces it's military to evolve and the Dauni represent a very appealing target for all of that.
 
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[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].

Ultimately, though I fight in the phalanx and bear the weapons of war for the city, the wise warrior seeks not the continuation of war in contravention of peace but the continuation of peace so that weapons be drawn in service to a good cause. Should this be our good cause? A war with the Dauni over what? Spite? And a rejection of the friendship of the Athenians for what? Fear? No. I reject these paths. How shall a war with the Dauni be waged? Shall our young men be drawn into a war of pain, a war of thorns, a war of dragging feet and heavy shields? Shall we let our fields grow fallow with the coming and going of the seasons as widows-to-be weep from Furthest Eretria, knowing that their husbands may never return, that their sons may never return, that their fathers may never return? And for what cause? Our spite and our bloodlust, I say! And what then when we have conquered the Dauni, if we can conquer them at all? Shall we then turn our attentions to the Samnites and conquer them as well, spilling over their hills and their plains until there are no Eretrians left and our women must ready a desperate defense with sticks, stones and tiles? And should we conquer the Samnites, what shall we do with them? Send the young men that remain to guard their fields and watch their kings to assure their loyalty. When the children of Eretria watch her servants, who shall watch Eretria herself? How will they defend the city. I remind my fellow Eretrians, my fellow Hellenes, of Ikaros and Daidalos. Shall we be Ikaros and see Helios burn us for our impiety and hubris. Trade has been our enrichment for as long as I have lived, let us trade with the Dauni and have them send young men with cattle to our fields rather than young men with spears and horses.

As for Athenai, how can we even consider rejecting her? Though her nobility discomfit me, do you think we can simply ignore the war and pretend it is not there? That we can remain in splendid isolation forever-more and be safe from all earthly ills? That we can be as the Theoi Athanatoi, constant and unchanging, untouched by mortal frailties? Our rejection of Athenai shall surely be seen as invitation by Sparta and what shall we do if they invite us? Reject them as well and suffer the justice of the Plataians? Does this august Ekklesia truly believe Furthest Eretria can survive, should Athenai or Sparta move against us? It is perfectly within the treaty with Sparta to declare our friendship with Athenai, and our trade with Attike is nourishing to our coffers and life-giving to them. If we reject, they shall simply find another market and we shall find ourselves at a loss for trade routes. Athenai is truly unstoppable once she puts her mind to something, let us rather ride her waves upon the Aegean and Adriatic, rather than be swept up in the undertow and dragged to drown in the deep.

As ever, I thank you, my fellow Eretrians, for your deep-seated commitment to the demokratia and the koinon of Eretria. And as ever, I beg the constant and unchanging Theoi Athanatoi that your decisions be in the right.

So speaks Glaukommes, son of Perixeontes.
 
[X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
 
X] [Hyria] Allow Artahias to subjugate Hyria [+10,900 freemen providing tribute and levies, Hyrian revolt is crushed and Artahias becomes an Eretrian vassal just as the Peuketii].
[X] [Dauni] The Path of Peace [Eretria and the Dauni will cease hostility, open trade to one another, and stop plotting against one another].
[X] [Athenai] Accept the Athenian treaty [Athenai will be grateful, Taras will be disturbed, Eretrian grain trade will grow faster in the future].
 
Honestly this is why I vote for giving the Hyrians their autonomy.

The thing is the Peuketii king only asked that he be made King of ALL the Peuketii and that he be permitted to see to his own internal affairs as he sees fit. As long as the King provides tribute in a timely fashion and levies when needed we leave them alone. He did kill his rivals, who turned to the Dauni as a way to try to retake power from Harpos. Not because they wanted to kick us out (though I am sure that would have been icing on the cake for them) but because they were pushed out of power where before they had enjoyed power within their own fiefdom.

The Messappii are not like this. Many view Daxtus as their last legitimate King, and see Artahias as opportunistically positioning himself to speak on behalf of them all and making himself the defacto choice for King. Yet he has not done much to earn that position beyond holding our spear above all the cities.

Thus when he abuses his position, the people revolt, and because we are the overlords, even though nominally that revolt is against us as well as Artahias is our puppet King in their eyes, they turn to us for protection.

Because they arent completely stupid and know that if they make us mad we are perfectly capable of coming down there and kicking butt.

So a central authority figure doesn't fit the Messapii the way it does the Peuketii. I would rather see Messapii hoplites marching in our phalanx then more light infantry and cavalry. The Peuketii and the Kleos Exoria fulfill that roll quite nicely, and I would rather help the Hyrians hellenize so that one day they might stop being vassals and become a part of our league as proper Hellenes with all the rights and privileges that entails.

With their own unique spin on what it means to be Greek after all, just as we put our spin on our interpretation of Greekness.

Honestly, by giving the Hyrians what they ask from us, they indebt themselves to us. We become to them as we are to the Peuketii. When you want something, you come to us, and if your logic and reasoning is sound, we, the kindly Patriarch, provide it. They come to us, they say they are suffering under the rule of Artahias and his supporters. We are the Father, when our child, adopted or otherwise, is suffering, it is our duty to relieve that suffering.

Just as the Aristoi has a duty to the commoner and to the serf and to the slave, and they to him, just as the citizen has a duty to the polis, and the polis a duty to the citizen, so do we have a duty to our hegemonia and to our vassals and subjects. They provide us with tribute, they and their horses march in our wars and fight in our phalanx. Now they come to us and say they are suffering. Let us do our duty as wise Fathers and relieve their burden.

So says I, Arkadios.
Wait, sorry but didnt you just vote to let the king deal with the Hyrians instead of granting them autonomy?
 
Folks!

Vote for Hyrian autonomy and peace with the Dauni!

A vote for peace with the Dauni is a vote for free trade! A vote for Hyrian autonomy is a vote for Messapii Hellenization!
 
There are a number of issues I have with this. Firstly regarding their 'dickery' with the Messapii and Peuketii, while it's true that they hold an advantage over Eretria in that area do remember they wouldn't be working against us there. They would be working against the established Nobles and Kings of said kingdoms who they do not have an advantage over.
Yes, but the nobles also have disadvantages of their own.

Firstly, they are a divided class (some Messapii and Peuketii would prefer independence for the Iapyges, or independence from our chosen vassal rulers like Harpos and Arthaias). Secondly, their power is concentrated in the politically unpopular cattle trade, creating a ready-made source of rebelliousness and impoverished people willing to revolt against the nobles. Thirdly, OUR power to back the nobles is limited by the fact that, well, as a class they aren't entirely under our protection and the Eretrian ekklesia has limited political will for bailing the Iapyges vassal nobles out of the fires created in large part by their own oppressive agricultural/pastoral policies.

While the Dauni has been an ongoing problem that has caused us issues it doesn't, therefore, follow that the best option to that is a short term solution by accepting a peace with them. While that does bring an end to the immediate problems it does nothing for the longer-term concerns of us having an untrustworthy neighbour on our border. Additionally, as I think we all accept King Auscelos will break this peace if it's ever in his advantage to do so, simply making peace here doesn't remove the threat of them putting a knife in our back the next time we have to send troops elsewhere.
Actually, Ausculos might very well prefer to keep such a peace, especially in his old age (how old is he anyway). This is because the Dauni, and the Iapyges as a whole, have learned that historically, while Eretria has been threatened several times, it generally found some way to rally and punish its enemies. Ausculos is not going to be able to say with certainty that his plan to backstab Eretria while someone else hits us from another direction will succeed... and he knows that if the plan fails, his ruin is far more certain than if he'd never signed the treaty in the first place. Furthermore, this state of "cold war" is necessarily costly to the Dauni, in ways they might well prefer to put an end to. So Ausculos DOES have incentives to keep the peace.

But beyond that, I don't agree with your basic characterization of the Dauni as inherently a long term threat. By your argument, the very state of having neighbors is a long term cost, because any neighbor we have might at some future time turn into an enemy. Except that we cannot avoid having neighbors; there will always be another one on the far side of the one we conquer because we don't trust them. And those new neighbors are unlikely to seem trustworthy to us either, because exactly like the Dauni, by the time we make contact with them, they'll already be arming, fortifying, and intriguing to preserve their independence from our armies. Indeed, this is precisely our dynamic with the Dauni- unlike the Peuketii, whom we started attacking almost immediately, the Dauni had time to prepare against us, and as such were able to strike back, which in turn made us angry and has led to us distrusting them while also wanting to conquer them.

Frankly, it's an ugly sentiment, and one I am not immune to.

Moreover we also have to consider the opportunity costs of accepting peace, because they do exist and are substantial. The tribute might not on it's own be game-changing but when it's combined with the income from the salt it begins to look more respectable. Additionally we, and Garnae, Sipontion and Aufidenos would all benefit from gaining new lands. We are after all, out of public lands.
Yes, and as I already said, if we want to follow the Roman model of conquering our neighbors to grant more land to our freemen to make more soldiers to conquer the next ring of neighbors, going after the Dauni makes a lot of sense.

But a lot of us don't want to pursue that strategy, and instead pursue some combination of oceanic settler colonization, seagoing trade, and navy-focused thalassocracy.

Beyond that, there remains the threat of the Samnites. As an independent Kingdom the Dauni represent a very appealing target for future Samnite expansion in 15-20 years when they next need more lands. A Dauni which is a vassal of Eretria is considerably less appealing, to put it mildly. We want the Samnites to continue focusing on the east and by vassalising the Dauni we ensure that happens. And also by gaining a border with the Samnites (through a vassal) we open the opportunity for diplomatic contact and trade with them during a period where they will not be raiding and expanding, this is the best opportunity to do so and presents a significant strategic win be removing the Samnites as a threat.
Does not a similar argument apply to the Dauni? Can we not, through trade and diplomatic contact, remove them as a threat? They seem rather less fierce and expansionist than the Samnites, so surely they would be more susceptible to such an approach.

Furthermore, if the Samnites begin to conquer the Dauni, then from your perspective this is quite an opportunity! Eventually, the surviving remnants of the Dauni will be weakened enough to appeal to us for aid, and in the aftermath we are likely to be able to establish ourselves as the senior partner in such a relationship... At least, that's assuming the Dauni don't successfully defend themselves, which would leave us with the status quo.

Again, it bears remembering that the strategy of conquering your "untrustworthy enemies" in hopes of securing your frontier is recursive. Doing it once will just make you a new "untrustworthy enemy" on the far side of the one you just conquered. The idea of conquering one's way to total security is a pipe dream.

Why is free trade good?
Because we're good at it and it tends to make us rich in the long run?
 
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