Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
- Location
- Mists of Albion
When all the Metics split the Adriatic Sea and Migrate out of the city
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
@Cetashwayo - Are there any instances of Greek polities capitulating too much to their metic populations? I know Sparta is an example of the opposite, of the citizen status being so fiercely guarded.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Please be civil.
Seriously.
Perhaps the problem is that you imagine that when I say "a mass exodus," I mean "all the metics will leave within a matter of months" or something similarly ridiculous.
No. That is not what I mean.
What I mean is that the metic labor supply will contract, as able-bodied and enterprising metics strike out for the colonies in relatively greater numbers, faster than they otherwise would, fast enough to have an impact on the economy.
The remaining metics will be able to demand higher wages, because citizen employers have no alternative. That in turn means greater economic pressure on employers, which is a problem given how many of our citizens rely on land farmed by metic tenant farmers for their income. We may find citizens indirectly driven into poorer circumstances because rising metic wages mean that the metics are in a stronger position to negotiate more favorable tenant farming arrangements, giving a smaller share of their agricultural produce to their citizen landlords.
Which, in turn, means pissed off hoplites and aristocrats.
I don't know, I kind of like not having so many of the problems and infrastructural issues required to maintain control of a large slave population.
Also, keeping statutory limits on personal slave ownership has done a lot to limit wealth and income inequality in Eretria. Our aristocrats are nowhere near as rich as they could be if they owned arbitrarily large numbers of slaves, and the slave limit has done a lot to force our aristocrats to look at commerce as a valid source of personal income, which in turn is driving a lot of our trade/commercial focus.
If we wanted to go the warrior-farmer route (Sparta and Rome being examples of states that go down this road), we'd probably be fine with that. For the merchant-thalassocracy route (more like Athens or Venice), it's not so desirable.
The tax cut hits in a few years' time after the census. It's not "affordable" in the sense of "we can have it without any consequences," but that's far from saying it's not "affordable" in the sense of "this will beggar the city and ruin everything."
As @Cetashwayo explicitly said, metics cannot buy up land outside the city, which is the part that's important to citizen land-ownership for purposes of who gets to be a hoplite. The land inside the city bought up by metics will probably mostly be land already occupied by metics, and the only citizens likely to be hurt are landlords who make their living renting out to metics, a class there can't be that many of. Especially not that many who are willing to sell the living spaces they currently rent out.
See, the difference between you and me is, I don't think the current situation with metics is stable in the long run. Metics make up a majority of the Eretrian population, they're barred from politics, our economy depends on their labor, and we tax the hell out of them. Except they're not slaves, so we don't have this huge machinery in place to repress them.
Sooner or later, something's got to give. We might as well ease off the pressure in controlled, eight-year increments, instead of being faced with something like the secessio plebis all of a sudden when the Eretrian metics reinvent the concept of the general strike.
I mean, what would that look like? How would you expect that to go?
I'm sure that you could have a Greek city-state make a concession to its noncitizen metics that Greeks would call "going too far," but these are the same people who would attribute a polis' economic success to the thrift and virtue of its citizens and not the giant silver mines and mercantile operations it sustained.
This is basically the ancient world's version of an immigration debate, and I think a lot of the same logic about how to properly deal with immigrants applies, if in a modified form. It's much better if immigrants have a way to assimilate into the society they live in, and a comfortable-ish role to assimilate into, than if they are permanently degraded and humiliated in all ways, while bearing the economic burdens that make life comfortable for the elite.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Lowering their taxes will force the demes to come up with ways to recoup the income somewhere else. We already have some options with the amber trade and getting the Mesapii to pay tribute, but I'm hoping they'll come up with more options.
I see no problem with reducing the metrics tax burden but owning land in the city?
No.
If I had to speak in methophers I would say that they gambeled to high. It is their right to care for their interests. But beeing made fun of?
I employ metrics and we speak of the grivances each other carries. These proposal will surely be the source of many evenings of talk. Both good and bad.
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
No.
If I had to speak in methophers I would say that they gambeled to high. It is their right to care for their interests. But beeing made fun of?
I employ metrics and we speak of the grivances each other carries. These proposal will surely be the source of many evenings of talk. Both good and bad.
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
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Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
That seems like an excellent way to incite hatred, if not outright revols. Much of our power stems from our vassals not viewing us as tyranical overlords.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, nore rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Alothough King Artahaias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, if successful, gain access to 25% pf the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, will once again cast my vote on the matters of Eretria Eschate.
In regards to the Metics, I vote that the city intervene in the Metic debt crisis. Because all those debts have us, Eretrians, as their creditors. That would mean 90 talents will go to the citizens of Eretria Eschate, which the citizens can then use to improve their businesses, build homes, maintain weapons and armor or use in payment of their own debts! All things that would improve Eretria herself! Not to mention that this act would buy us time to think about how we want to our relationship with the Metics to go on from this point onwards in a carefully planned manner.
In regards to Rhegion, I vote we encourage them to attack Lokri Epixephyrii. For Lokri Epixephyrii is the last ally of Syrakousai in Italia. Lokri Epixephyrii is subjugated, then Italia would be a land full of Hellenes friendly or allied to Eretria. And then we can move on to a League of Leagues!
In regards to Kymai, we voted to rescue Kymai, not subjugate Kymai. Why then are we going to insist that Kymai follow our own laws from the start? They will quickly follow our leadjust for survival when they find out they are surrounded by the Epulian League, Kerkyra and its colonies and non-Hellenes.
In regards to the additional mission, I vote on the Messapii mission. I have not heard any news from the Messapii from some time, even from my sister Artemisdora in Egnatia. And Egnatia is also full of Messapii, Hellenized as they are, up to this day! That is disturbing! We must find out what they are doing now!
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis, have now cast my vote! I shall now return to the athletic field to practice my javelin skills while my wife looks after the thermopolion!
Bryzos' thermopolion! Oldest thermopolion in Eretria Eschate! We have fish dishes, squid dishes, and seaweed soup! Located in the Port District and in Egnatia's Port District!
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Alothough King Artahaias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, if successful, gain access to 25% pf the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, will once again cast my vote on the matters of Eretria Eschate.
In regards to the Metics, I vote that the city intervene in the Metic debt crisis. Because all those debts have us, Eretrians, as their creditors. That would mean 90 talents will go to the citizens of Eretria Eschate, which the citizens can then use to improve their businesses, build homes, maintain weapons and armor or use in payment of their own debts! All things that would improve Eretria herself! Not to mention that this act would buy us time to think about how we want to our relationship with the Metics to go on from this point onwards in a carefully planned manner.
In regards to Rhegion, I vote we encourage them to attack Lokri Epixephyrii. For Lokri Epixephyrii is the last ally of Syrakousai in Italia. Lokri Epixephyrii is subjugated, then Italia would be a land full of Hellenes friendly or allied to Eretria. And then we can move on to a League of Leagues!
In regards to Kymai, we voted to rescue Kymai, not subjugate Kymai. Why then are we going to insist that Kymai follow our own laws from the start? They will quickly follow our leadjust for survival when they find out they are surrounded by the Epulian League, Kerkyra and its colonies and non-Hellenes.
In regards to the additional mission, I vote on the Messapii mission. I have not heard any news from the Messapii from some time, even from my sister Artemisdora in Egnatia. And Egnatia is also full of Messapii, Hellenized as they are, up to this day! That is disturbing! We must find out what they are doing now!
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis, have now cast my vote! I shall now return to the athletic field to practice my javelin skills while my wife looks after the thermopolion!
Bryzos' thermopolion! Oldest thermopolion in Eretria Eschate! We have fish dishes, squid dishes, and seaweed soup! Located in the Port District and in Egnatia's Port District!
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
(Sadly, I don't have the time for any RP here)
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
(Sadly, I don't have the time for any RP here)
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
Vote Tally : Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest) - Original - Alt. History | Page 227 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 5677-5861]
##### NetTally 2.0.1pre1
Task: Metics
[x][Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
No. of Votes: 25
Nyvis
butchock
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
DkArthas
Driven by Apathy
Godwinson
Lavazz9595
LonelyWolf999
Orisha91
piebox
racnor
Rakuhn
Random Member
Rat King
Redium
Secretariat
Shard
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
Sivantic
veekie
Wellhello
wildwill
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
No. of Votes: 13
Void Stalker
afterthought53
Chopak
Darkcrest
DeAnno
Droman
inawarminister
McLuvin
NuclearConsensus
phil03
Portec
SirLagginton
Star
[x][Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
No. of Votes: 8
Spacegnom
Crazy7s1
Erandil
Horologer
Ironanvil1
Kipeci
Professor Vesca
SyntheticTrevor
[x][Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
No. of Votes: 7
gutza1
Captain Hunt
Himmelhand
kilopi505
No7sHere
Oshha
Undead Martyr
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Rhegion
[x][Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
No. of Votes: 33
gutza1
butchock
Captain Hunt
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
Chopak
Crazy7s1
DkArthas
Droman
Godwinson
Himmelhand
Horologer
inawarminister
kilopi505
Kipeci
Lavazz9595
LonelyWolf999
No7sHere
NuclearConsensus
Orisha91
Oshha
piebox
Portec
Professor Vesca
racnor
Secretariat
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
SyntheticTrevor
Undead Martyr
veekie
Wellhello
wildwill
[x][Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
No. of Votes: 9
Spacegnom
afterthought53
DeAnno
Ironanvil1
McLuvin
Nyvis
SirLagginton
Void Stalker
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Rhegion] Redirect their ambitions toward the islands of Lipara and the Lucanian coast [Raises tension with Thurii].
No. of Votes: 2
Erandil
Redium
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kymai
[x][Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
No. of Votes: 26
Spacegnom
butchock
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
DkArthas
Driven by Apathy
Erandil
Godwinson
Horologer
Lavazz9595
McLuvin
NuclearConsensus
Nyvis
Orisha91
Oshha
Portec
racnor
Rat King
Redium
Secretariat
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
veekie
Void Stalker
wildwill
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
No. of Votes: 21
gutza1
afterthought53
Captain Hunt
Crazy7s1
DeAnno
Droman
Himmelhand
inawarminister
Ironanvil1
Kipeci
LonelyWolf999
No7sHere
piebox
Professor Vesca
Rakuhn
Shard
SirLagginton
Star
SyntheticTrevor
Undead Martyr
Wellhello
[x][Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, nore rapid population growth after settlement].
No. of Votes: 1
kilopi505
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Mission
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
No. of Votes: 40
Spacegnom
afterthought53
butchock
Captain Hunt
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
Chopak
Crazy7s1
DeAnno
DkArthas
Driven by Apathy
Droman
Erandil
Godwinson
Himmelhand
Horologer
inawarminister
Ironanvil1
LonelyWolf999
McLuvin
No7sHere
NuclearConsensus
Orisha91
Oshha
piebox
Portec
racnor
Random Member
Redium
Secretariat
Shard
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
SirLagginton
Star
Undead Martyr
veekie
Void Stalker
wildwill
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
No. of Votes: 3
Kipeci
Professor Vesca
SyntheticTrevor
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission.
No. of Votes: 2
Shador
Wellhello
[x][Mission] Amber Trade Mission. The Enetoi were Eretria's staunch allies in the war against the Liburni. We must know capitalize on this to gain a monopoly over the export of amber to the wider Mediterranean. Through this we can strengthen ties and open the way for a future colony in the marshy lagoons off the coast of their lands, strengthening an Eretrian presence in the northern Adriatic [If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new monopoly trade route worth 25 talents].
No. of Votes: 1
gutza1
[x][Mission] Amber Trade Mission.
No. of Votes: 1
Nyvis
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].[/QUOTE]
No. of Votes: 1
Lavazz9595
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Alothough King Artahaias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, if successful, gain access to 25% pf the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
No. of Votes: 1
kilopi505
Total No. of Voters: 54
##### NetTally 2.0.1pre1
Task: Metics
[x][Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
No. of Votes: 25
Nyvis
butchock
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
DkArthas
Driven by Apathy
Godwinson
Lavazz9595
LonelyWolf999
Orisha91
piebox
racnor
Rakuhn
Random Member
Rat King
Redium
Secretariat
Shard
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
Sivantic
veekie
Wellhello
wildwill
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
No. of Votes: 13
Void Stalker
afterthought53
Chopak
Darkcrest
DeAnno
Droman
inawarminister
McLuvin
NuclearConsensus
phil03
Portec
SirLagginton
Star
[x][Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
No. of Votes: 8
Spacegnom
Crazy7s1
Erandil
Horologer
Ironanvil1
Kipeci
Professor Vesca
SyntheticTrevor
[x][Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
No. of Votes: 7
gutza1
Captain Hunt
Himmelhand
kilopi505
No7sHere
Oshha
Undead Martyr
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Rhegion
[x][Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
No. of Votes: 33
gutza1
butchock
Captain Hunt
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
Chopak
Crazy7s1
DkArthas
Droman
Godwinson
Himmelhand
Horologer
inawarminister
kilopi505
Kipeci
Lavazz9595
LonelyWolf999
No7sHere
NuclearConsensus
Orisha91
Oshha
piebox
Portec
Professor Vesca
racnor
Secretariat
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
SyntheticTrevor
Undead Martyr
veekie
Wellhello
wildwill
[x][Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
No. of Votes: 9
Spacegnom
afterthought53
DeAnno
Ironanvil1
McLuvin
Nyvis
SirLagginton
Void Stalker
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Rhegion] Redirect their ambitions toward the islands of Lipara and the Lucanian coast [Raises tension with Thurii].
No. of Votes: 2
Erandil
Redium
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kymai
[x][Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
No. of Votes: 26
Spacegnom
butchock
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
DkArthas
Driven by Apathy
Erandil
Godwinson
Horologer
Lavazz9595
McLuvin
NuclearConsensus
Nyvis
Orisha91
Oshha
Portec
racnor
Rat King
Redium
Secretariat
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
veekie
Void Stalker
wildwill
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
No. of Votes: 21
gutza1
afterthought53
Captain Hunt
Crazy7s1
DeAnno
Droman
Himmelhand
inawarminister
Ironanvil1
Kipeci
LonelyWolf999
No7sHere
piebox
Professor Vesca
Rakuhn
Shard
SirLagginton
Star
SyntheticTrevor
Undead Martyr
Wellhello
[x][Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, nore rapid population growth after settlement].
No. of Votes: 1
kilopi505
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Mission
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
No. of Votes: 40
Spacegnom
afterthought53
butchock
Captain Hunt
Cavalier
Chimeraguard
Chopak
Crazy7s1
DeAnno
DkArthas
Driven by Apathy
Droman
Erandil
Godwinson
Himmelhand
Horologer
inawarminister
Ironanvil1
LonelyWolf999
McLuvin
No7sHere
NuclearConsensus
Orisha91
Oshha
piebox
Portec
racnor
Random Member
Redium
Secretariat
Shard
Sigvrd
Simon_Jester
SirLagginton
Star
Undead Martyr
veekie
Void Stalker
wildwill
Zeitgeist Blue
[x][Mission] Picente Diplomatic Mission.The colony of Ankon is now rapidly growing beyond the small plot of land provided by the Picentes. Although the town of Numana and its hinterland lies to the south, the northwest of Picenum is sparsely populated. In order to avoid conflict with the Picentes and ensure a foundation for new Eretrian colonies along that stretch of coast, the xenoparakletor will be dispatched to negotiate a purchase of land for both Ankon and future colonies [-40 talents, if successful Ankon's territory will expand and land will be opened up for further colonies in Picenum].
No. of Votes: 3
Kipeci
Professor Vesca
SyntheticTrevor
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission.
No. of Votes: 2
Shador
Wellhello
[x][Mission] Amber Trade Mission. The Enetoi were Eretria's staunch allies in the war against the Liburni. We must know capitalize on this to gain a monopoly over the export of amber to the wider Mediterranean. Through this we can strengthen ties and open the way for a future colony in the marshy lagoons off the coast of their lands, strengthening an Eretrian presence in the northern Adriatic [If successful, Eretria will be then be able to construct a trading colony in the Venetian lagoon and a new monopoly trade route worth 25 talents].
No. of Votes: 1
gutza1
[x][Mission] Amber Trade Mission.
No. of Votes: 1
Nyvis
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].[/QUOTE]
No. of Votes: 1
Lavazz9595
[x][Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Alothough King Artahaias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, if successful, gain access to 25% pf the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
No. of Votes: 1
kilopi505
Total No. of Voters: 54
[X] [Metics] The city will intervene in the Metic debt crisis and pay their debts [-90 talents].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, nore rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Alothough King Artahaias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, if successful, gain access to 25% pf the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
I have heard Hermesdora Eretriazenis' argument and am convinced. This is a good plan for the future of our fair city. He sells good fish too.
I would add that we should see to the Messapii for the simple reason that the wise man knows to not reach beyond his grasp. Before we expand further we must ensure that our current gains are secure. We cannot leave the Messapii as they are, inside our tent but not fully in our control.
Thus speaks Kaidos the Messenger.
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, nore rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Alothough King Artahaias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, if successful, gain access to 25% pf the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
I have heard Hermesdora Eretriazenis' argument and am convinced. This is a good plan for the future of our fair city. He sells good fish too.
I would add that we should see to the Messapii for the simple reason that the wise man knows to not reach beyond his grasp. Before we expand further we must ensure that our current gains are secure. We cannot leave the Messapii as they are, inside our tent but not fully in our control.
Thus speaks Kaidos the Messenger.
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
The something to show for it is not irritating the rest of our league by making a mess of the colonial laws that we just recently agreed upon. None of them would be able to get a handle on this new massive new colony on barbaroi land through introducing prior residents of their cities to become the new citizens, we entirely circle around the process that we previously burned Ankon on even though they were previously existing on their current spot and definitely didn't want to pry open their citizenship. I wouldn't take irritating them so lightly; together they hold a veto that they can use on league decisions if they don't like our actions. I don't really care that much about Kymai's proud heritage and traditions, apparently ~80% of the current potential colonists are also willing to drop being so rigid about the citizenship if it means living and the ones that aren't can be mostly made up with increased emigration anyway.
This is rather uncharitable of you, verging on the deceptive. Cetashwayo said earlier that we would only have the chance to evacuate something around I think ~7500 by default, so 15000 was never even on the table. I don't know why you're pushing this 1500 number for my proposal either, as the vote itself only brings it down to 2000 compared to a high of 2700 (definitely not 15000) for your preferred option. Both numbers in either case are quite likely to increase as the siege carries on and a few things happen: they run out of hope that they'll find another way to survive on site, they have more time to think over the idea in that depressing atmosphere, and finally that they hear of some successes in settlement in Eretria and beyond and so it is no longer a zany scheme but a possibility. Desperation will do a fair amount to inflate the numbers regardless of whether they're a fan of the citizenship policy as I think some people who are presently haughty on it may reconsider as they begin to starve and spend another couple of years watching the flocks outside the walls.
Recall that Rhegion is primarily a naval trade power that is separated from these cities by ocean, so therefore it suffers from a similar problem that we do in the Kymai situation to helping Greek colonies on the Lucanian coast. Shepherds don't have ships for them to blow up and can just melt back up into the hills if ever Rhegion gets to the point of launching an expensive overseas expedition, messing around there until it starts getting a bit too costly and Rhegion is forced to leave. It doesn't help that Rhegion's actual land forces are much more anemic than ours. Also, to take control over these cities it would first need to defeat them; consider that Poseidonia was taken over in a night attack right after they broke out into civil disorder, do you think that other ambitious Lucanian chiefs looking to repeat this feat might have their antennae raised for signs of strife like a war among their Greek neighbors?
The vote says there are 2500 potential freemen to evacuate as it stands, if they abide by the standards of our league that'll drop to 2000 freemen and if we make an exception to keep their restricted citizenship then it'll be 2700, no multiplication needed. Both would probably climb higher the further the siege drags on. Which reminds me- say, @Cetashwayo, if Kymai's laws are kept would those freemen all be considered as citizens at the new Kymai? You mentioned Afexi citizenship, Google brought up nothing but would that be the granting of citizenship to any of the freemen of Kymai who came with them to the colony even if they were previously a Metic or something?
For our league we want a cohesive culture and mutual bonds such that we all feel strongly for the well-being of our fellow cities and act in unison rather than getting deadlocked- particularly as league cities now hold the veto, so if internal divisions arise we could find ourselves eventually paralyzed on league matters. Slamming shut the opportunity to colonize in this huge and wonderful harbor in everyone else's face does not do that; it makes our Adriatic colonies more heterogenous rather than less and eliminates an incentive for the joining of Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros where they might have sent their surplus population thereabouts. Their surplus population which is familiar with the local clime, the cultivation of crops within it and the customs of local groups such as the Daorsi and Pleraei, as well as providing familiar points of contact for trade between these colonies. As well, bear in mind that the Kymai population is actually rather weak in terms of their number of able-bodied freemen of military age on account of their string of painful defeats against the Campanians. If you are wanting to bring up the number of hoplites, it may be best if immigrant men could be brought in and become citizens to marry citizen maidens and widows who may bear citizen children; otherwise a lot of saved women citizens are likely to become old without bearing children, or marrying metics whose children as non-citizens cannot become hoplites.
Also, why would they resent us for literally carrying them across the waves to their rescue from certain death? The ones who would be hateful of it would the ones not taking us up on the offer and dying horribly on the other side of Italy, and honestly I'm fine with leaving behind the sticks in the mud who are too set in their ways to adapt to a new situation. We don't need the mentality that restricting citizenship is worth dying for further strengthened by their presence, it's best if our league can somewhat ebb that out within itself if anything.
1) We have prior precedent for not keeping the citizenship the same as if transplanting a city across the waves were business as usual- for instance, the illustrious Theron would be languishing in slavery had Eretria not loosened its citizenship on arrival. They who arrive on Eretrian ships, fed and housed in the meanwhile by the Eretria- are they too good to adhere to the laws of her league, the same as any other city would? It's a colony established by Eretria expense and effort with citizens formerly descended of Eretria to be in Eretria's League. It is no independent city doing this on a lark with its own time and resources, let us be clear about that. If we spin this fabrication then any of the cities that we're courting could point out how we forced this on Ankon over its protests despite it having been established prior to the ruling.
2) We aren't receiving and sending a fixed quota of immigrants. As long as people suspect we have prime land in the colonies that they would like to settle and become citizens on, the people to whom that sounds like a better deal than their life in Eretria will stream out. Their streaming out will put the remaining labor in a better position because there isn't a huge supply of labor to be cheap and demanding about it. The word filters back to the immigrant source areas that there's great opportunity in Eretria and the feedback loop progresses until we start running low on choice colonial land, not as many people leave the city and the incoming stream of people getting bottled up in Eretria again makes labor relatively inexpensive and therefore less attractive compared to chances in other areas. You have to consider that someone might emigrate for choice land if you have two new colonies but might stay if they could only get marginal spots in one.
3) A contact is someone you know and are familiar with. They don't even need to be a trader themselves; but if you are a merchant in this strange city and happen to see someone you used to talk to then you're likely far more inclined to talk to them than a bunch of random strangers. Being pointed the right way or to the right person is critical, it's way easier to do business if you can have people vouching for you than going in cold with no one knowing anyone and whether or not they're trustworthy. That said, we're paying for literally anyone to go and not restricting it to lotteries of the desperately poor, so it could very likely be the case that we're sending out former craftsmen and people in the know, and additionally, most any colonist from one of our cities is going to be familiar with their home city which may be from anywhere across the league and can give much better information on who trades what where than all these folks from Kymai would have just going in blind after whatever transient period in Eretria.
They are neither powerful nor having an overwhelming reason to be grateful to Eretria in particular, and at least in the case of Melaina Kerkyra a same mother city is shared with the former Lykaians and they even share a part of the same islands. It is possible that it could provoke some such sentiment regardless, in which case we definitely should not further exacerbate it by walling off this huge new polis amidst them from any of their own influence when we have the chance to do this together with the league.
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DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
Yeah. I have been convinced.
Anyway, lowering taxation and allowing metics to get there own properly in the city may translate into more metics being able to afford the Panoply.
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
Yeah. I have been convinced.
Anyway, lowering taxation and allowing metics to get there own properly in the city may translate into more metics being able to afford the Panoply.
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Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
Eugenios the Stonemason:
I thank Hermesdora and Kaidos for their reasoned voting for Metic debt relief. As much as it may seem like a cost to the city, it is very much a boon to its people! After all, as we seek to grow our trade network through a larger harbor, who do merchants like to do business with? Why, people with money, of course! This would be a wise choice for the assembly to make.
I thank Hermesdora and Kaidos for their reasoned voting for Metic debt relief. As much as it may seem like a cost to the city, it is very much a boon to its people! After all, as we seek to grow our trade network through a larger harbor, who do merchants like to do business with? Why, people with money, of course! This would be a wise choice for the assembly to make.
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
- Location
- USA
[X] [Metics] We cannot accept any of these demands! [Metics will consider assembly a failure].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
- Location
- Universe, Milky Way, Earth
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
[x][Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
[x][Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
[x][Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].
- Location
- Central Europe
Ignoring for a moment ...
... the humanitarian arguments for picking the option that saves the greatest amount of people.
...and the probable boost to available freemen numbers in subsequent negotiation rounds gained by not playing hardball right from the start.
I would point to the fact that 700 Freemen are quite the sizeable population on their own. That is more people than the current population of Melania Kerkyra.
Furthermore, and I don't think it has been brought up before, when looking at the Epulian League as a whole the Linean Laws are basically a zero sum game population wise. Everyone who settles in the colonies comes from an already existing league poleis. Meanwhile every freemen we save from Kymai, means an additional taxpayer for the League as a whole.
@Cetashwayo What would our maximum gains from a fruitful mission to the Daorsi look like? Is Obander going to also negotiate for lands bordering our potential new members? Could we gain the whole coastal strip from Epidauros to Melaina Kerkyra?
... the humanitarian arguments for picking the option that saves the greatest amount of people.
...and the probable boost to available freemen numbers in subsequent negotiation rounds gained by not playing hardball right from the start.
I would point to the fact that 700 Freemen are quite the sizeable population on their own. That is more people than the current population of Melania Kerkyra.
Just these 700 Freemen would mean an additional League trireme once New Kymai is up an running, not waiting for immigration required.
Furthermore, and I don't think it has been brought up before, when looking at the Epulian League as a whole the Linean Laws are basically a zero sum game population wise. Everyone who settles in the colonies comes from an already existing league poleis. Meanwhile every freemen we save from Kymai, means an additional taxpayer for the League as a whole.
@Cetashwayo What would our maximum gains from a fruitful mission to the Daorsi look like? Is Obander going to also negotiate for lands bordering our potential new members? Could we gain the whole coastal strip from Epidauros to Melaina Kerkyra?
I'm proposing an easing of restrictions, not there complete removal. Large populations are still too risky. Getting enough to take some of the edge off the Metic tax obligations and reducing labor costs would be fine, I think. We don't want the problems you mentioned to be exacerbated too much.
[X] [Metics] It is time now for a Prytanis to be selected from among the Metics to address the assembly [Metics will choose their own representatives to present before the city].
If rejection were still a big risk, I would vote for the front-runner instead. Back in the first round of this, I warned that granting (almost) all the metic demands would just mean more unreasonable demands sooner. We should have granted enough that they are happy to be heard and held back a few reforms (that we wanted anyway) for this time. That's done though and we have to move forward now.
[x] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
I don't have a strong opinion on this one.
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
They are not just random migrants looking for a new place to move to. We wanted to rescue and evacuate Kymai, that includes their laws and cohesion.
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Picente and Amber also look important, but we need to get this one done.
If rejection were still a big risk, I would vote for the front-runner instead. Back in the first round of this, I warned that granting (almost) all the metic demands would just mean more unreasonable demands sooner. We should have granted enough that they are happy to be heard and held back a few reforms (that we wanted anyway) for this time. That's done though and we have to move forward now.
[x] [Rhegion] Help them work out a settlement with the Sikeliote League in Sicily [Raises tension with Taras].
I don't have a strong opinion on this one.
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
They are not just random migrants looking for a new place to move to. We wanted to rescue and evacuate Kymai, that includes their laws and cohesion.
[x] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
Picente and Amber also look important, but we need to get this one done.