Remove ads

Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

Reader mode
Kipeci said:
Recall that Rhegion is primarily a naval trade power that is separated from these cities by ocean, so therefore it suffers from a similar problem that we do in the Kymai situation to helping Greek colonies on the Lucanian coast. Shepherds don't have ships for them to blow up and can just melt back up into the hills if ever Rhegion gets to the point of launching an expensive overseas expedition, messing around there until it starts getting a bit too costly and Rhegion is forced to leave. It doesn't help that Rhegion's actual land forces are much more anemic than ours. Also, to take control over these cities it would first need to defeat them; consider that Poseidonia was taken over in a night attack right after they broke out into civil disorder, do you think that other ambitious Lucanian chiefs looking to repeat this feat might have their antennae raised for signs of strife like a war among their Greek neighbors?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean agree their plan is ambitious but they clearly seem to believe they can do it and I would give them more than even chances of subjugating Hylel and the region around it and think that even Neapolis isn't that unlikely. And they should certainly be able to get control of that island in front of Kymai considering unless the Etruscans suddenly decide to oppose them nobody is going to stop them. And sure I am doubtful that Rhegion will be able to decisively defeat the Oscans or Lucani but it isn't like I care too much about that, they should certainly be able to contain them and skirmish with them for a few years and like I said it keeps them nicely distracted from upsetting the balance of power with the other greek states too much.
Adhoc vote count started by Erandil on Jul 2, 2019 at 6:06 AM, finished with 5940 posts and 70 votes.
Click to expand...
 
Droman said:
Ungrateful metics, greedy one and all. They see our generosity and kindness and mistake it for weakness. How well might they find themselves under Spartan rule?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Once again, if you have any desire to reform the metic/citizen relationship in Eretria (which I think you do since if I remember right you were one of the people pushing for a more imperialistic agenda) you should be thankful that the metics are continuing to push for more reforms because that is the only way we will ever get them. Without considerable amount of political pressure the citizenship of Eretria will never start treating the Metics as anything else than second or even third class citizens.
 
Concerning the metics, I think we should give them something. We're not like the other cities where they're a minority. They're key to our fast build up. I think taxes are the best option because the right to purchase property in the city will tie them to us more and integrate them more deeply. I'm not a fan of the representative option because I feel like people are picking it because there's no clear obvious cost. I think it's the most socially damaging one of the lot, though, and the one most likely to harden our own citizens' stance against the metics.
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
Yeah, I'm not a fan of having the majority population of the city have their own singular elected leader who is expressly part of their group -- it makes for a very obvious nucleation point for any metic revolt that might happen should the players decide to fuck over the metics for funsies.
 
kilopi505 said:
I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the Psiloi, will once again cast my vote on the matters of Eretria Eschate.

In regards to the Metics, I vote that the city intervene in the Metic debt crisis. Because all those debts have us, Eretrians, as their creditors. That would mean 90 talents will go to the citizens of Eretria Eschate, which the citizens can then use to improve their businesses, build homes, maintain weapons and armor or use in payment of their own debts! All things that would improve Eretria herself! Not to mention that this act would buy us time to think about how we want to our relationship with the Metics to go on from this point onwards in a carefully planned manner.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That is... actually a pretty good point.

The big problem with it is, it means we lose a big chunk of money right now, when we're already going to be deficit-spending the treasury down to a nubbin in this election cycle as it is, with the relief grain shipments to Kymai and the harbor expansion.

The hope is that expanding trade from the harbor will give us the income to make good on that in the long run, but that doesn't help us now.

There are economic situations where it actually makes sense to sacrifice long-term income potential for short-term money right now, and this is arguably one of them. Because all the tariff income in the world ten years from now won't save us from the political crisis that arises if Epiktetos goes to the treasury in the third year of his term and finds it empty.

Kipeci said:
Also, why would they resent us for literally carrying them across the waves to their rescue from certain death?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because when they arrive, they get dropped on a foreign shore to build a new city from scratch, AND there is a mighty outside power dictating to them that they have to welcome large numbers of strangers into their polis.

How do you think the first generation of Eretrians would have felt, if a city like Athens or Corinth had bankrolled their evacuation, and kept randomly foisting off any Hellene who stepped off a boat and saying "yeah, you have to accept this guy as a citizen of Eretria now, regardless of whether he came over with the initial refugee fleet that had a shared identity, and even if he thinks the Divine Marriage is a stupid joke."

The playerbase might shrug and go "OK," because it would mean their numbers would go up. But the citizens IC wouldn't like it at all. And such a situation would almost certainly dilute uniquely Eretrian cultural elements (like the radical rejection of slave status among the initial colonists, and the idea of the Divine Marriage as a symbolic basis for fusing disparate dualistic elements into a unity). Eretria would be less of a distinctive city, and more of a Generic Hellenic Mish-Mash. Plus, there would reasonably be fear of Athens/Corinth/Whoever packing Eretria Eshkaia with foreigners in an attempt to turn the place into a satellite state with no autonomy.

That's the situation the prospective Neokymaians face, if they found their new city under the usual rules of the Epulian League. This is exactly the time when their existing culture, family lineages, and traditions are in the greatest danger of being destroyed due to the loss of the physical underpinnings of their polis. And right at that moment, we step in and say "oh yeah, you have to accept lots of newcomers who don't give a shit about your culture, lineage, or traditions, and are entirely ignorant of those things, as citizens co-equal with yourselves."

This is a recipe for Kymai to cease to exist as a recognizable city and culture.

And moreover, we're arguing that this is a good thing, when we ourselves talk about homogenizing the Epulian League and preventing Neokymai (?) from becoming a heterogeneous outlier. The Kymaians aren't dumb, so they've probably figured out that it's to our advantage in some sense if they become more fully blended into and subordinate to the prevailing culture and attitudes of the Epulian League cities.

1) We have prior precedent for not keeping the citizenship the same as if transplanting a city across the waves were business as usual- for instance, the illustrious Theron would be languishing in slavery had Eretria not loosened its citizenship on arrival. They who arrive on Eretrian ships, fed and housed in the meanwhile by the Eretria- are they too good to adhere to the laws of her league, the same as any other city would? It's a colony established by Eretria expense and effort with citizens formerly descended of Eretria to be in Eretria's League. It is no independent city doing this on a lark with its own time and resources, let us be clear about that. If we spin this fabrication then any of the cities that we're courting could point out how we forced this on Ankon over its protests despite it having been established prior to the ruling.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Honestly the case of Ankon is the best justification for forcing this on Kymai, because it would be more consistent for us to do so. I don't remember if I participated in that vote or when it happened, honestly.

Spacegnom said:
Ignoring for a moment ...
... the humanitarian arguments for picking the option that saves the greatest amount of people.
...and the probable boost to available freemen numbers in subsequent negotiation rounds gained by not playing hardball right from the start.

I would point to the fact that 700 Freemen are quite the sizeable population on their own. That is more people than the current population of Melania Kerkyra.

Just these 700 Freemen would mean an additional League trireme once New Kymai is up an running, not waiting for immigration required.
Furthermore, and I don't think it has been brought up before, when looking at the Epulian League as a whole the Linean Laws are basically a zero sum game population wise. Everyone who settles in the colonies comes from an already existing league poleis. Meanwhile every freemen we save from Kymai, means an additional taxpayer for the League as a whole.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
One caveat: the Linean Laws have the advantage of turning metic immigrants into citizens of new colonies. Since by custom, agricultural land is held by citizens, the Linean Laws let us attract immigrants and turn them into citizens of colonial cities in our League. As metics flow out of the existing League cities, rising wages and overall growth of economic opportunity for Hellenes in the Adriatic will draw more metics into the League cities.

I suspect that the long term economic and demographic effect will be like the draft over a furnace created by a tall smokestack. The fire burns hotter because more air is continuously being drawn in to react with the fuel.

This I expect to persist more or less until we run out of places to safely park a colony, and until those colonies run out of land in the surrounding area worth farming. Which will probably take us long enough that we wind up worrying about Philip of Macedon, at this rate.
 
Erandil said:
Once again, if you have any desire to reform the metic/citizen relationship in Eretria (which I think you do since if I remember right you were one of the people pushing for a more imperialistic agenda) you should be thankful that the metics are continuing to push for more reforms because that is the only way we will ever get them. Without considerable amount of political pressure the citizenship of Eretria will never start treating the Metics as anything else than second or even third class citizens.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I do have that desire. But the metrics should learn not to push so much in less than a generation. Again, I point to Sparta as a comparison. At least we're willing to compromise, don't mistake an inch freely given for an acre left to plunder like some Samnite shepherd.

And on a side note, shout out to @Cetashwayo for making turns of phrases like that so easy to muster up.
 
Last edited:
Ironanvil1 said:
Denying the Metics anything, whilst simultaneously offering them the opportunity to leave and cease being tax-paying Eretrian Metics whilst still receiving the protection of the League seems rather short sighted, from a fiscal point of view...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No, we expect a gradual exodus that will root out most malcontents, e.g., the shiftless tenant farmers who are a cause of much of this consternation. It may reduce our growth, but at least it will not undermine our tax base.

Nyvis said:
Concerning the metics, I think we should give them something. We're not like the other cities where they're a minority. They're key to our fast build up. I think taxes are the best option because the right to purchase property in the city will tie them to us more and integrate them more deeply. I'm not a fan of the representative option because I feel like people are picking it because there's no clear obvious cost. I think it's the most socially damaging one of the lot, though, and the one most likely to harden our own citizens' stance against the metics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah, letting metics speak in the Assembly is a recipe for consternation and disaster.
 
Last edited:
The kymai rescue is a great undertaking and costs a lot of cash, political influence, and turn actions, its better to get our money's worth in this entire endeavour.
 
butchock said:
The kymai rescue is a great undertaking and costs a lot of cash, political influence, and turn actions, its better to get our money's worth in this entire endeavour.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I am thoroughly soured on gumball plans like this kymai rescue. While a new colony is a decent plus, the expenditure of our international influence and monies at such a fast clip brings about a sure feeling of regret.

In the future, let us be motivated more by self-interest, and less by sentimentality.
 
Satar said:
No, we expect a gradual exodus that will root out most malcontents, e.g., the shiftless tenant farmers who are a cause of much of this consternation. It may reduce our growth, but at least it will not undermine our tax base.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The exodus of the poor is one half of the issue. The other is the rich metic craftsmen who can actually afford to buy houses. The lowered taxes and city rights benefit them far more. Given that they provide a full luxury trade route and may provide two by the end of this term if we roll well on the drakonid immigration policy, i'm quite happy sweetening the pot for them.
 
Droman said:
@Cetashwayo - Are there any instances of Greek polities capitulating too much to their metic populations? I know Sparta is an example of the opposite, of the citizen status being so fiercely guarded.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"Too much" is really a loaded term. It's only too much in the perspective of the citizenry. The metic social position is somewhat similar to the position of Athenian in-debt farmers and landless poor prior to Solon's laws, and so in that sense this is a relitigation of archaic-era social problems. The term "metic"somewhat fools people, including the citizens themselves, to think of them as just foreigners who happen to be in Eretria, even if some of them have lived there for generations and undergird the city's prosperity while also serving in its armies, navies, and so on, without getting a lick of representation for it and double the taxes.

Spartan Helots were serfs, and were bonded labour. They were not free.

Simon_Jester said:
As @Cetashwayo explicitly said, metics cannot buy up land outside the city, which is the part that's important to citizen land-ownership for purposes of who gets to be a hoplite. The land inside the city bought up by metics will probably mostly be land already occupied by metics, and the only citizens likely to be hurt are landlords who make their living renting out to metics, a class there can't be that many of. Especially not that many who are willing to sell the living spaces they currently rent out.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The basic ambition is for middling class metics to be able to own their own home thanks to this policy. For them it's their version of owning a plot of land; the Eretrian dream :p

Kipeci said:
Which reminds me- say, @Cetashwayo, if Kymai's laws are kept would those freemen all be considered as citizens at the new Kymai? You mentioned Afexi citizenship, Google brought up nothing but would that be the granting of citizenship to any of the freemen of Kymai who came with them to the colony even if they were previously a Metic or something?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Most colonies grant citizenship to every person who participated in the expedition upon arrival. This obviously doesn't include slaves or foreigners, though. But it means that, for example, the population of Thurii is incredibly diverse.

Spacegnom said:
@Cetashwayo What would our maximum gains from a fruitful mission to the Daorsi look like? Is Obander going to also negotiate for lands bordering our potential new members? Could we gain the whole coastal strip from Epidauros to Melaina Kerkyra?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Possibly. You'll see the options next turn. Certainly that area is not very well-populated; so far as I know the Daorsi were almost entirely concentrated in the river valley around Daorson, and that coast is mostly a few fishing villages.
 
Cetashwayo said:
"Too much" is really a loaded term. It's only too much in the perspective of the citizenry. The metic social position is somewhat similar to the position of Athenian in-debt farmers and landless poor prior to Solon's laws, and so in that sense this is a relitigation of archaic-era social problems. The term "metic"somewhat fools people, including the citizens themselves, to think of them as just foreigners who happen to be in Eretria, even if some of them have lived there for generations and undergird the city's prosperity while also serving in its armies, navies, and so on, without getting a lick of representation for it and double the taxes.

Spartan Helots were serfs, and were bonded labour. They were not free.



The basic ambition is for middling class metics to be able to own their own home thanks to this policy. For them it's their version of owning a plot of land; the Eretrian dream :p



Most colonies grant citizenship to every person who participated in the expedition upon arrival. This obviously doesn't include slaves or foreigners, though. But it means that, for example, the population of Thurii is incredibly diverse.



Possibly. You'll see the options next turn. Certainly that area is not very well-populated; so far as I know the Daorsi were almost entirely concentrated in the river valley around Daorson, and that coast is mostly a few fishing villages.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But you see how effective the term is. Even now, with our modern sensibilities and thousands of years of hindsight, we are slowly starting to view them as a population 'other' than Eretrian. They are not a part of us, they do not have the same values we do, they are not loyal like we are, and they are asking too much. So we should deny them for the sake of our stability.

Heck, we don't even have any vested interest in anything the metics gain or don't gain. It is literally just words on a screen, and yet people still argue that they ask too much.

Honestly, I would grant them the privilege to own their own home. Assuming the former landlord is willing to sell it. But Prytanis I think, goes much further in cementing our dreams of Pan-Hellenism within our league.
 
Last edited:
Satar said:
No, we expect a gradual exodus that will root out most malcontents, e.g., the shiftless tenant farmers who are a cause of much of this consternation. It may reduce our growth, but at least it will not undermine our tax base.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, that could happen.

Or we could, y'know, wind up accidentally reinventing the secessio plebis and being forced against our will into more significant concessions by the threat of a general strike among metics of all economic classes.

Satar said:
I am thoroughly soured on gumball plans like this kymai rescue. While a new colony is a decent plus, the expenditure of our international influence and monies at such a fast clip brings about a sure feeling of regret.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Have we sacrificed international influence? Sure, our xenoparakletor is spending time and energy on the task, but we'd be spending this kind of time and energy on getting any serious new colony set up regardless.

Cetashwayo said:
"Too much" is really a loaded term. It's only too much in the perspective of the citizenry. The metic social position is somewhat similar to the position of Athenian in-debt farmers and landless poor prior to Solon's laws, and so in that sense this is a relitigation of archaic-era social problems. The term "metic"somewhat fools people, including the citizens themselves, to think of them as just foreigners who happen to be in Eretria, even if some of them have lived there for generations and undergird the city's prosperity while also serving in its armies, navies, and so on, without getting a lick of representation for it and double the taxes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Frankly yes.

We've basically recreated a class of disenfranchised and economically disadvantaged 'citizens' (citizens in the modern sense, not in the classical Greek sense) of Eretria. This class is large, economically vital to our city, and not "shiftless" in the sense of being lazy, unambitious, or rootless.

Blaming the class of metics for being ungrateful or treating them as a bunch of presumptuous jackasses for wanting to reduce the level of exploitation and legalized discrimination they face is absurd for us to do, speaking out-of-character. In-character the actual citizens of Eretria may feel that way... but bluntly the in-character citizens of Eretria have all manner of distasteful and downright appalling opinions that we would do well not to celebrate. Their time and culture was not without its virtues, but it was assuredly not without its sins.

Professor Vesca said:
But you see how effective the term is. Even now, with our modern sensibilities and thousands of years of hindsight, we are slowly starting to view them as a population 'other' than Eretrian. They are not a part of us, they do not have the same values we do, they are not loyal like we are, and they are asking too much. So we should deny them for the sake of our stability.

Heck, we don't even have any vested interest in anything the metics gain or don't gain. It is literally just words on a screen, and yet people still argue that they ask too much.

Honestly, I would grant them the privilege to own their own home. Assuming the former landlord is willing to sell it. But Prytanis I think, goes much further in cementing our dreams of Pan-Hellenism within our league.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'd actually vote OOC for the Metic Prytanis bit if it weren't for the fact that IC it would cause riots and would go very directly against something I had Leukos the Accountant say in character years earlier.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Have we sacrificed international influence? Sure, our xenoparakletor is spending time and energy on the task, but we'd be spending this kind of time and energy on getting any serious new colony set up regardless.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We missed a chance to do other important things that probably wouldn't costed us as much and still be more profitable, to top that we will probably sour our relationships with Krotone wich could reflect on our next turns.
We are in a financial pinch because we need to help them and could have problems with our Leauge depending on what we do.

If we decided to let's say set up serious new colony on our own without helping Kymai we could had avoid at least Krotone and Leauge problem. So yea we would spend less energy than usual on this.
 
Last edited:
Alexis, son of Kallias Aristeides presents a compelling argument. I will try to complement them on the subject of Metics. It is known by many in this assembly that I employ Metics in my workshop. The past year has been busy and lucrative for them; some of the new triremes are using our sails, and we all take great pride in serving Eretria Eskhata through our skills in peace as well as in war.
Even so, I witnessed lively discussions among my employees about the fate of Metics in Eretria. We fight in times of war, and we toil in times of peace, for the glory of Eretria Eskhata, they say. Yet our burden is great, and we are weary. Why should we stay as Metics, struggling and hard pressed, when we could cross the Adriatic, become citizens, and ply our craft for our own benefit?

For now they stay, placing their hopes in our deliberation, that their burden might be alleviated. If we refuse them, I know for a fact that some of my own employees will leave for Issa. They would be difficult to replace, weaving robust sails requires great skill! And my workshop would not be able to supply both our triremes and our merchants. Let us remember that we need strong arms and skilled hands for our glory and prosperity. We should be wary of a policy that drives away good men.
So says Nereos son of Theodotos.

[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
[X] [Metics] Allow Metics to purchase property within the walls of Eretria and reduce their taxation [10% reduction in Metic taxation, -14 talents a turn].
[X] [Rhegion] Encourage Rhegion to make war against the city of Lokri Epixephyrii [Raises tension with Krotone].
[X] [Kymai] The settlement may have its own laws [+200 potential freemen, stronger cohesion, less rapid population growth after settlement].
[X] [Mission] Messapii Tributary Mission. Although King Artahias reigns in Neriton, the Messapii are not yet integrated vassals of Eretria, and indeed owe only theoretical allegiance to the city. If we are to transform a temporary subject into a permanent ally then we must build the institutional and diplomatic grounding for it. The Xenoparakletor will tour the Messapii lands and gain support for a more permanent and fair arrangement, all the while tying the resolution of conflicts and the settling of disputes to Eretria. In this way we can curtail Artahias' ambitions without enraging him, and even grant him greater central authority that he may wield on our behalf [-20 talents, If successful, gain access to 25% of the entire Messapii freemen levy as well as 10.3 talents in regular tribute].
 
OOC: I would rather we keep out some of the moral judgement with regards to other posters over the Metic issue. Like no shit we all know that what is happening to the Metics is wrong and ultimately in our eyes everything they are asking is more than justified.

But you know its a game about playing Ancient Period City State, so a significant part of the IC population isnt going to agree with that. And there is a pragmatic element with regards to how the current metic taxes were explicitly stated to be what keeps us running and the IC arguments over wheter its better to keep the squeeze going or let if off a little to encourage development.
 
Deadly Snark said:
OOC: I would rather we keep out some of the moral judgement with regards to other posters over the Metic issue. Like no shit we all know that what is happening to the Metics is wrong and ultimately in our eyes everything they are asking is more than justified.

But you know its a game about playing Ancient Period City State, so a significant part of the IC population isnt going to agree with that. And there is a pragmatic element with regards to how the current metic taxes were explicitly stated to be what keeps us running and the IC arguments over wheter its better to keep the squeeze going or let if off a little to encourage development.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If I gave the impression of casting moral judgement upon anyone for their votes, I apologize. That was not my intention, and I cast no judgement upon anyone for what they are voting for, and why they vote for it. None of us are here to recreate an enlightened liberal state in the time before Alexander. I just found it interesting that simply using a specific term to refer to a specific group of people changed how those people were thought of.
 
@Cetashwayo When would Eretrians feel comfortable easing up on the restrictions on serfs and slaves? I got the impression that the victories the polis has had emboldened it enough, but there doesn't seem to be much demand among the aristocrats. Are they that Gung-ho on adriatic trade?
 
Orisha91 said:
@Cetashwayo When would Eretrians feel comfortable easing up on the restrictions on serfs and slaves? I got the impression that the victories the polis has had emboldened it enough, but there doesn't seem to be much demand among the aristocrats. Are they that Gung-ho on adriatic trade?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Why would the city need to loosen those restrictions? It isn't really suffering a major labour shortage.
 
Spacegnom said:
I would point to the fact that 700 Freemen are quite the sizeable population on their own. That is more people than the current population of Melania Kerkyra.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It is not however more population than Epidauros, and is certainly less than both together. I would not risk endangering the accession of the two new league cities by ripping away the chance for them to colonize the easiest and nearest site, and as Linos says this is a terrible example to set for the league cities by saying that league rules don't apply for Eretria and her endeavors if they don't want it (although they'll be inflicted on you if you go against it and are weak, as with Ankon earlier). Plus, I would contend that even if those 700 were not almost made up through immigration within a mere 25 years, it would be more useful to have it take some citizen immigrants from the local cities. They actually know the local conditions and could serve as an invaluable trove of information to the refugees of Kymai, who have only known very different barbaroi and agriculture in ash-nourished volcanic lands. We want them to land on their feet and not stumble, but if we restrict citizenship to Kymai only then they cannot benefit from this local knowledge.

Melania Kerkyra
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Spacegnom said:
Furthermore, and I don't think it has been brought up before, when looking at the Epulian League as a whole the Linean Laws are basically a zero sum game population wise. Everyone who settles in the colonies comes from an already existing league poleis. Meanwhile every freemen we save from Kymai, means an additional taxpayer for the League as a whole.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It was brought up before, but I disagree. The main driver in our immigration is the wage and opportunity available in Eretria, since that's the only city of ours that most have heard of. If we have massive emigration to the colonies from the choice land and opportunities available out there, then that spikes up wages in Eretria as the labor supply becomes less. The high wages drive general migration to our city, and once they arrive and become aware of a good number of the colonial opportunities a good fraction immediately set sail to the colonies. It's a feedback loop that continues as long as we have available land, with the immigration to Eretria being driven by the 'pull' factor of wages towards Eretria. This is most maximized by having desirable colonies hoovering up everyone who thinks they can make a better life from Eretria, that is, a 'push' factor towards the colonies in the form of choice available land. To maximize the pull in, we must maximize the push out; that can be done if we have many attractive spots available (that is, more sites available for colonization) to limit the rate at which any particular one's desirable land is parceled out and provide different circumstances amenable to the whims of the people. For instance, some may prefer island living and others living on a mainland.

Gworn said:
They are not just random migrants looking for a new place to move to. We wanted to rescue and evacuate Kymai, that includes their laws and cohesion.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Neither was Ankon, they were settled citizens when we decided that the league law should override them despite their protests and provide us the opportunity to put more settlers there to homogenize the league. Having just done this, we now propose to turn around and say that Kymai's foreign laws are paramount and must be preserved over the ones of our league, which it may still reap the full voting benefits of? What do you think that may do for our cohesion as a league, beyond just the one colony? I entailed the benefits above to New Kymai's success that having citizens from around the area to emulate could provide, some loss of their cohesion (which may also be termed as better bonding and acculturation to the Epulian League) could prove quite beneficial if they are able to learn some tips on local agriculture, trade and how not to irritate the local barbaroi into a frenzy.

Erandil said:
I mean agree their plan is ambitious but they clearly seem to believe they can do it and I would give them more than even chances of subjugating Hylel and the region around it and think that even Neapolis isn't that unlikely. And they should certainly be able to get control of that island in front of Kymai considering unless the Etruscans suddenly decide to oppose them nobody is going to stop them. And sure I am doubtful that Rhegion will be able to decisively defeat the Oscans or Lucani but it isn't like I care too much about that, they should certainly be able to contain them and skirmish with them for a few years and like I said it keeps them nicely distracted from upsetting the balance of power with the other greek states too much.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I fully believe them capable of demanding tribute from Hyele and perhaps they may do so for Neapolis even, although if they were unable to pay double tribute they would be destroyed by the Campanians. That's not where I have the problem. The problem is that having just defeated these cities and thereby further weakening their land forces and defenses, you seem to assume that Rhegion would be willing and able to defend these cities from the land forces of the Lucanians that may strike within a single night as was disastrously proven at Poseidonia. No one can prepare a naval expedition in that time; furthermore, Rhegion's land forces are small and much larger and more practiced armies have been easily put to ruin by the Oscan peoples. For another, where's the profit of doing this? Rhegion wants trade influence and money, it gets that if it forces these cities to for example not sell to Thurii and have to trade for their goods at Rhegion. If these cities get destroyed by barbaroi, hey, that's most of the effort done automatically. That's why they're celebrating the destruction of Kymai. No tribute, but oh well. The financial incentives just aren't there for them to actually stay and fight the Lucanians since they'd keep the trade benefit and only lose some tribute which we've generally found to not be of incredibly high value, certainly not enough for risky engagements with the Lucanians that could destroy their army while their envious neighbor of western Lokri remains at home. And should they actually start to win, the Lucanians can just take to the hills and not fight until they're forced to go back. This is fundamentally a fight where land power is necessary unless you get to an Athens level of the city being supported entirely by using its navy to demand or purchase grain while besieged, and I see absolutely no reason for Rhegion to provide them that when it's in this business to make money.

Simon_Jester said:
Because when they arrive, they get dropped on a foreign shore to build a new city from scratch, AND there is a mighty outside power dictating to them that they have to welcome large numbers of strangers into their polis.

How do you think the first generation of Eretrians would have felt, if a city like Athens or Corinth had bankrolled their evacuation, and kept randomly foisting off any Hellene who stepped off a boat and saying "yeah, you have to accept this guy as a citizen of Eretria now, regardless of whether he came over with the initial refugee fleet that had a shared identity, and even if he thinks the Divine Marriage is a stupid joke."

The playerbase might shrug and go "OK," because it would mean their numbers would go up. But the citizens IC wouldn't like it at all. And such a situation would almost certainly dilute uniquely Eretrian cultural elements (like the radical rejection of slave status among the initial colonists, and the idea of the Divine Marriage as a symbolic basis for fusing disparate dualistic elements into a unity). Eretria would be less of a distinctive city, and more of a Generic Hellenic Mish-Mash. Plus, there would reasonably be fear of Athens/Corinth/Whoever packing Eretria Eshkaia with foreigners in an attempt to turn the place into a satellite state with no autonomy.

That's the situation the prospective Neokymaians face, if they found their new city under the usual rules of the Epulian League. This is exactly the time when their existing culture, family lineages, and traditions are in the greatest danger of being destroyed due to the loss of the physical underpinnings of their polis. And right at that moment, we step in and say "oh yeah, you have to accept lots of newcomers who don't give a shit about your culture, lineage, or traditions, and are entirely ignorant of those things, as citizens co-equal with yourselves."

This is a recipe for Kymai to cease to exist as a recognizable city and culture.

And moreover, we're arguing that this is a good thing, when we ourselves talk about homogenizing the Epulian League and preventing Neokymai (?) from becoming a heterogeneous outlier. The Kymaians aren't dumb, so they've probably figured out that it's to our advantage in some sense if they become more fully blended into and subordinate to the prevailing culture and attitudes of the Epulian League cities.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Much can be accepted for the sake of survival. We set as citizens even slaves to escape destruction, all we ask for their salvation is that they adhere to the laws of our league just as any other city might. This will become far less controversial as the new citizens prove their worth, particularly ones from Melaina Kerkyra and Epidauros who have the most local knowledge to provide tips on survival in this strange new region. Eretria hated Athens largely due to that it had done nothing to support the city in the time of its greatest trial; we on the other hand will for years ferry them out, let them live among us as our own and then ferry them to life in a new land where all regardless of their prior status may live as citizens. Compared to a sure death, I find that an entirely acceptable deal. If the accepting of new citizens is somewhat onerous, at least we know it is a burden borne by all the other cities in our league of brothers, and that we may in turn benefit from it and influence the sprouting colonies elsewhere in our time.

Simon_Jester said:
Honestly the case of Ankon is the best justification for forcing this on Kymai, because it would be more consistent for us to do so. I don't remember if I participated in that vote or when it happened, honestly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Children of War update is where it happened. From my brief scan over it you did vote but only on other items concerning the wars we were involved with, but you might want to double check to be sure.

Simon_Jester said:
One caveat: the Linean Laws have the advantage of turning metic immigrants into citizens of new colonies. Since by custom, agricultural land is held by citizens, the Linean Laws let us attract immigrants and turn them into citizens of colonial cities in our League. As metics flow out of the existing League cities, rising wages and overall growth of economic opportunity for Hellenes in the Adriatic will draw more metics into the League cities.

I suspect that the long term economic and demographic effect will be like the draft over a furnace created by a tall smokestack. The fire burns hotter because more air is continuously being drawn in to react with the fuel.

This I expect to persist more or less until we run out of places to safely park a colony, and until those colonies run out of land in the surrounding area worth farming. Which will probably take us long enough that we wind up worrying about Philip of Macedon, at this rate.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Exactly, and with the massive amount of land opening up in Sicily to soon act as another massive magnet for immigration, I want to be sure that we can competitively draw the most of it that we're able to by having the most colonial land available to push out colonists to and through higher wages draw in the Metics.

butchock said:
The kymai rescue is a great undertaking and costs a lot of cash, political influence, and turn actions, its better to get our money's worth in this entire endeavour.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Don't let the sunk cost blind you. I didn't want to be here, but we are; being here, I recommend that instead of just trying to wind up with the highest number of colonists possible that we safeguard the greater interests of our league and city. We're not doing this for Kymai's sake but for our own, we should feel no obligation to cave to them on their every demand no matter the cost because we actually have a fair amount of leverage in this situation. Furthermore, it sets us up for a bad time later if we bow at their every condition and import the maximum number available; did we not just get burned by the Metics on account of their being emboldened by us almost totally yielding the ground on their conditions? What might the people of Kymai demand for their huge and culturally distinct city without any moderating influence from the rest of the league if they are accustomed to getting their way? The first generation present will be grateful, but we must live with all the ones thereafter as well.
 
I would like to change my vote on Kymai

Is it alright to just post it here, or should i go back and edit my vote?
 
Last edited:
wildwill said:
I would like to change my vote on Kymai

[X] [Kymai] The settlement will have the same citizenship laws as the rest of the Epulian League's new colonies. [-500 potential freemen, weaker cohesion, more rapid population growth after settlement].

Is it alright to just post it here, or should i go back and edit my vote?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You can either repost your full vote or edit your original post.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top