Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

[Undead Martyr]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

I am persuaded. We do not want a unified Sixily.

At least unless we're the ones owning it.

 

[Spacegnom]

I re-read the update and noticed some minor things:

On Korinthos the oligarchs have embarked on a terrible rampage through the citizenry, slaughtering any that they see of supporting democracy, after opening their bloody rule by a massacre of much of the reigning government.

Click to shrink...

On Kerkyra ...?

Our Expenses on Salaries & Subsidies went from 17 to 21 Talents, even though the original price tag for the Office of Barbarian Commerce was 3 Talents per turn.

On the map Hyria is still the cultural center of the Messapii. Is this something we can expect to change now that we elevated Artahias of Neriton?

Syrakousai has 10,000 men and 35 ships. Gela has 6,000 men and 15 ships and Akragas has 7,000 men and 25 ships.

The Sikeliote League has 8,000 men and 15 ships. Rhegion has 2,500 men and 25 ships. Eretria Eskhata has 8,142 men and 22 ships. Thurii has 4,000 men and I think I said 30 ships? Something like that. Himera has 2,500 men and 10 ships. Though of these states, only Akragas, Eretria, and Rhegion are truly proficient in naval combat.

Click to shrink...

Before you said Rhegion has 2500 Hoplites, but now you compare it to the fully levy of Eretria Eskhata. Do they not have any significant forces of metic skirmishers or aristoi cavalry?


"I understand why some seek an alliance with Rhegion, for one the city has already been an ally of Eretria in the past. Furthermore, our shared Ionian history would make such an alliance fit into the Ionian-Dorian conflict we see on the mainland. Rhegion's position at the Straits of Messana is a crucial one and having a power friendly to us control them would surely be a boon in both trade and war. However, I feel that some points have been overstated by those arguing in favour of Rhegion.

For one, Rhegion's naval support would mostly be a local affair. We should not expect them to readily help us with our Adriatic endeavours. If we look at the distance a trireme has to travel along the coast, for the open sea bears risk in every season, then even Korinthos is closer to Eretria than Rhegion. [OOC:Maps of the Sicillian Expedition make me think that fleets don't cross the Gulf of Taras, they hug the coastline.]

Many here seem to intend on securing Rhegion's support at the Congress of Gela. I wonder though; what is the worth of additional support, if by the same act we weaken the bond with our most important regional ally the Sikeliote League? I agree with Phokion Aristides, Rhegion will continue to oppose Syrakousai for it is in their own self interest. The polis of Rhegion has strived to hinder them, since before our arrival in these lands. So, for as long as we do not purposefully upset them, for example by allying their rival Lokris, we should be save in the knowledge that the enemy of our enemy will continue to be just that. Should war come to the Island of Sicily, the citizens of Rhegion will surely live up to their stalwart reputation and join our alliance in a coalition opposing Syrakousai once more!

Last but not least, I would also like to point out that Krotone's role is not unimportant in such a war. For just as Rhegion is likely to join us against Syrakousai, so is Lokris likely to join against us. Were we to ally Rhegion, then it would have to first enter into a lengthy conflict with Lokris before being able to focus on Sicily. Meanwhile if we ally Krotone, then it would be them and Thurii in Lokris back. In such a scenario Rhegion would be able to much more quickly shift its focus against Syrakousai."

 

[Droman]

One last thing before I go to sleep, just noticed your edit.

Look to the map again. Rhegion and its satellites straddle Sicily and Italy. It only borders four entities: neutral Mylai and the Sikels as well as the Sikeliote League and Lokri Epixephyrii. If we make it a solid ally so that the Sikeliote League has to back off, it can dedicate almost all of its power to Lokri Epixephyrii on land and deploy its substantial navy (larger than ours!) as it pleases. This puts its army in the same direction that Taras and Krotone could conceivably come from (though I'm not sure why they would if we have peace with the former and haven't antagonized the other). Or if we have those handled due to Eretria and Thurii coming on down the boot and laying waste to our intimidating the Lokrians out of the fight, it can use its huge navy to deploy where it wants to.

Click to shrink...

Go to sleep and achieve what I could not this night.

I see what you're saying about Rhegion's potential contributions. That said, I think for the time being we can still push for Krotone and trust that Rhegion will remain allied to the Skieliote League for at least this war. Next war, who knows, maybe we align with Rhegion against the Sikeliotes after the former shares Lokri's territories with Krotone.

 

[Karugus]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[kilopi505]

@Cetashwayo, what are the Sicels, Sycani and Elymi doing?

Are they also joining the conference? Are they interested in joining an Anti-Syracuse alliance?

Also, is Morgantina a Greek city or a Sicel city in your quest?

 

[fasquardon]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

Citizens! I have words!

Alkaios son of Kleitos speaks well when he says that our reasons for opposing Artahias as king of the Messapii in the past no longer apply. And it is right that we should wish a capable ally who may banish the disorder of the cattle drive we saw this year and who may bind the wounds of the Messapii so that they might recover their strength and become barbaroi allies worthy of the name.

When it comes to the Illyrian expedition, I remained concerned that Zeus will be displeased should we be too aggressive and greedy. I charge that our strategos for this expedition should be careful. Do not sink your spear too deeply into the Liburnian beast, lest it's tusks come close enough to gore you! Remember the tricks the Liburnians have used in the past when they have used the foolishness of the unwary to their advantage. That said, we must answer these pirates, lest we also displease the gods by cowardice. Every piece of news we get from the north we hear of their boldness growing. It is needful that we humble them!

Further, the Illyrian expedition will not burden our xenoparakletor with a mission that does not suit his skills.

On the matter of our chosen alliance, I reject the notion of allying with Krotone. It is not seemly for us to hem in the ambitions of faithful Thurii when we ourselves are so ambitious. Lokri may prove a worthy ally, but I think it unwise to upset both Krotone and Rhegion for the prize of separating Lokri from Syrakrousai. I advocate Rhegion as our ally, for together with them we may command the seas that bound Italia, and though their armies are smallest of the three, with their skilled rowers and many ships, they may bring their armies swiftly to our aid should we need them. And though allying with Rhegion comes with complications with the Sikeliote League, in truth, this will better focus the Sikeliotes on the problem of Syrakrousai.

So says Kleon son of Aristophanes!

 

[Ironanvil1]

Looking longer term, allying with Krotone now, we have the immediate potential to mitigate the irritation it might cause Thurii via handing them a free city as a gift.
Ally with Rhegion now, and we irritate the Sikeliote League, which seems unwise going into the Sicilian Conference. Especially when they're already nominally on the same side, raising divisive issues is not a great idea.

However, since Krotone and Rhegion do not seem to be particularly at odds with one another, allying with Krotone just now, pacifying Thurii, and cultivating a friendly relationship with Rhegion in the longer term off the back of the Sicilian Conference would seem to provide us a great deal more in total.

 

[Sivantic]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[Karom13]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[Ironanvil1]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[butchock]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

Awesome! I got my cows!

 

[racnor]

Looking longer term, allying with Krotone now, we have the immediate potential to mitigate the irritation it might cause Thurii via handing them a free city as a gift.
Ally with Rhegion now, and we irritate the Sikeliote League, which seems unwise going into the Sicilian Conference. Especially when they're already nominally on the same side, raising divisive issues is not a great idea.

However, since Krotone and Rhegion do not seem to be particularly at odds with one another, allying with Krotone just now, pacifying Thurii, and cultivating a friendly relationship with Rhegion in the longer term off the back of the Sicilian Conference would seem to provide us a great deal more in total.

Click to shrink...

That could be exactly reversed. We're going to the conference to support the league so we could ride that goodwill to get them to accept our opposition to any potential future backstabbing of Rhegion, then later use lingering goodwill from giving Thurii their new city to help smooth over frustration from a link with Kroton.

Also, as for the Conference itself, we may drive a small wedge between us and the league proper, but we remove from the arsenal of Syracuse the much larger wedge of "Hey, Rhegion, you know that If we ever lost you would be next, right?"

 

[Ironanvil1]

That could be exactly reversed. We're going to the conference to support the league so we could ride that goodwill to get them to accept our opposition to any potential future backstabbing of Rhegion, then later use lingering goodwill from giving Thurii their new city to help smooth over frustration from a link with Kroton.

Also, as for the Conference itself, we may drive a small wedge between us and the league proper, but we remove from the arsenal of Syracuse the much larger wedge of "Hey, Rhegion, you know that If we ever lost you would be next, right?"

Click to shrink...

Both we and the Sikeliotes are broadly friendly to Rhegion right now. Us opening up an unnecessary rift there by seeming to favour one over the other is the unwise bit going into the Conference. Get past that Conference, and we're all on the same side versus Syracuse, a minor kerfuffle over who's our Bestest Best Friend can be smoothed over more easily.

The optics of us being magnanimous and gifting Thurii and entire city, making them look churlish if they complain about us allying with Krotone, are also rather different to us having to bring up that grant of a city in future to defray the alliance, making it far more transactional and debt based than we really want our relationships to be.

Allying with Krotone now also should aid adding Rhegion later, as the Lokrians are the primary land threat towards them, one countered by Krotone on the far side.

 

[ctulhuslp]

[x] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[x] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[Deadly Snark]

New
[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Krotone. Once the hegemon of the western Italiotes, Krotone's star has fallen significantly. However, they still constitute a significant force and have strong relations with the minor cities of the region. If they were to be swayed into alliance and friendship, the main challenge remaining would be to reconcile them with the ambitious Thuriians [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Krotone].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[inawarminister]

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[SneakySnek]

Kleon son of Prokopios is quite content. His shipments of pottery will be a little safer with the news from the Adriatic. Demos Drakonia is on the rise again, he tossed his stone in the right way. The ekklesia back away from a long war which may hurt the trade in the region and looked like most of the decisions will be of his liking this year.

"Dear citizens! First, I congratulate to our new Xenoparakletor and Proboulos, may they aid our city with great skill! And I also need to thank the Gods themselves, for they showed their goodwill to Demos Drakonia! May the three Demoi rule in great accordance!

But after showing my gratitude to them, I need to ask a favour too. Not for myself, but for our cousins and distant neighbours in Campania. I offer my libations for the etrusci lying dead in the fields. I do this for they were once a mighty and worthy foe and now need to fight against those strange sheep…herders for inland. This land will be a more dangerous place if we let them destroy the ones who think like us, at least in some ways. Also, think about our cousin at Kymai! Because they will be next target of this rabble, I guarantee.

But this is not our only concern in the way of war. Our waters are infested with pirates and they will threaten us if we stay passive. The Etruscans and the Enetoi are already doing our duty. Aren't we worked long for control the trade at the Adria? Then we have to act now! But I am confident that the ekklesia is in favour of this motion. Don't forget, it was Demos Drakonia who proposed this first!

And if you listen to me, I hope I can change the mind of some of you. We need friends in this land, friends for war but also for peace. And for both the best choice is Rhegion! Fair Rhegion and her fleet will guarantee that we rule the waves not just in war when it can mean that we are able to feed our city, reach our colonies and deny that for our enemy, but also in peace. When we need to push back pirates, we want to connect our cities and want to fill our coffers with the help of our trade! The polis is planning to implement the colonial policy of Demos Drakonia, a fine choice if you ask me but for that the strong fleet and friendly waters are necessary. Consider this, when you vote in the question.

In the matter of the cattle-trade, I feel there is a unanimous will to work with this man, so I won't waste the time of the ekklesia with any more on that matter.

I hope that after this term the gods will be pleased with us, after the completion of the Hill, the construction of a new temple and the calendar reform. I also hope that we can reconcile with Taras and manage to deal with the siceliotes but everything in due time. Thank you, dear citizens to listen to me!"

[X] [Cattle] Grant Artahias authority over the annual cattle drive [+1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Italy] Rhegion. The gateway to the Tyrrhenian Sea, Rhegion occupies the critical juncture of the Straits of Messina. Gaining their allegiance would secure Eretria's trade routes to the Etruscans, but cause difficulties with the Sikeliote League, who while their nominal allies envy Rhegion's control of the strait [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out alliance with Rhegion].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].

 

[Murska]

While currently we are backing the Sikeliotes and Syracuse is our enemy, we do not want either friend or foe to control Sicily. If the Sikeliotes win, we still lose, if not as badly as with a Syracusan victory.

Also, consider that there are three competent fleets in the area, all of which are roughly equal in size. If we tie one to ours by alliance, we will have naval dominance assured in any local conflict. Not everything has to do with Sicily, and if we end up facing Korinth or in some other conflict with Greeks in the local area, having Rhegion on our side is very useful. And most pressingly, if Rhegion is ever against us, we face the threat of losing our fleet. That would be a death blow for Eretria, one that we would probably not recover from.

Krotone, I feel, gives us friendly Hoplites that we don't need at the moment, and little else.

 

[Erandil]

I mean like I said potentially cooling down the relationship with the Sikeliote's is something of a plus in my opinion when it comes to Rhegion since I do fear a tight alliance will result ina conflict with Carthage in the future. It isn#t like I want them as enemies or even think they are bad friends I just to reach a point where if they poke the bear a bit too much we can extradite ourselves without too much trouble if we desire so.

I think this is placing too much onus on Etruscan failure. The Lucani and Bruttii delivered plenty of defeats to the Greek cities of the coast over the course of the 4th century BCE In fact, they conquer a good portion of the coastal Greek cities such as Krotone, Metapontion, and Poseidonia, and defeat multiple mainland expeditions to attack them led by Sparta and then Epirus. Usually, however, they do it through treachery or intelligent use of the environment to trap their enemies; the most famed victory of the Samnites was not a battle at all, but trapping the Romans in a pass that allowed them to force the entire army to a surrender (The Caudine Forks).

I don't think the Etruscans are particularly worse fighters than the Hellenes, and we have precious few sources about the fall of the Northern Etruscans in the Po Valley or the Campanian Etruscans. However, I think it's a factor of three things:

1. The Etruscans might have been an elite over a mixed or mostly indigenous population, and so were brittle in the face of military defeats.
2. In the case of the Southern Etruscans, they may have been spent from fighting the Greeks, a greatly weakened force. This is almost certainly the case given that the outcome of the Battle of Kymai in 474 BCE was the effective loss of dominance for the Etruscans in the southern Tyrrhenian Sea, after having already lost their land connection to Campania thanks to the invasions of the Volsci and the rise of the Roman Republic.
3. It's probably more complicated than "they were overrun". Internal strife, divisions between cities, treachery, and other complex factors could all have played a part in the fall of these cities.

Indeed, the Etruscans fight extremely fiercely when facing the Romans, and don't seem to have been bad fighters by any measure. They are just about to go through a series of extremely unfortunate events. Within a century of the Battle of Kymai, the Etruscans will experience the following misfortunes:

1. Losing the outpost of Fidenae to Rome, ceding control of the right bank of the Tiber conclusively.
2. Losing the entirety of Campania to Samnite invaders.
3. Losing the entirety of the Po Valley to a Gallic invasion, though how much of an invasion and how much was a more Anglo-Saxon situation where it was a mixed invasion/migration/ethnic coup is a big question.
4. Losing the city of Veii to Rome.
5. Suffering the loss of many of their cities north of the Arno to the Friniates.
6. Consistent Gallic raiding after that and then a final defeat by the Romans.

Just one of the most shit hands in history.

Click to shrink...

Oh, I didn't want to allude that the Ertruscans are bad fighters or that we are that much better than them. Indeed the whole reason why I said that it might make sense to delay our military reforms till we met the Samnites in battle was that I feared that we wouldn't do that much better either and thus it makes some sense in my opinion to wait till after taht to reform our army to both implement lessons learned there and perhaps have elss internal resistance to certain reforms that might otherwise be viewed as to radical/going against tradition/unnecessary.

 

[kilopi505]

[X] [Cattle] Better to keep the drive decentralized [-1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].

Hello everyone! It is I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the psiloi, here once again to fulfill my civic duty as a citizen of Eretria Eschate!

I cast my vote on keeping the drive decentralized, in keeping with our decision to not support any Messapii leader over any other! In the first place, is not the solution of this simple problem a proper schedule according to a calendar? Let's just schedule when each city or realm will send their cattle to us, according to

And to address the root of this problem...why must we unite the Messapii cities under one ruler, when it is manifestly clear that the Northern Messapii have no desire to be placed under the rule of a Southern Messapii?! We would only be inviting discord and future headaches were we to force the Northern Messapii to start following the orders of Avarthios Artahas!

Besides, our grandfathers and fathers had already faced this problem before, in the matter of Turai and the Peucetii League! Recall that they voted to just separate Turai from the rest of the Peuketii so there would be no political headaches in forcing someone to follow someone else they don't like! I propose that the next time the power struggle among the Messapii affect us again that we simply repeat what our grandfathers did in regards to Turai and the Peuketii League! Separate Hyria, Caelion and Brention into states of their own just like Turai and Egnatia, while the Messapii League officially becomes just Neriton, Lupiae, Manduria and Rudiae!

As for the mission, I vote to send our fleet pirate hunting! In the absence of Kerkyra's navy in patrolling their side of what I propose we officially now call the Epulian Sea, pirates have multiplied like rats and flies, and strangling trade across the Epulian Sea in effect and hurting our city's finances! We must act! For the sake of our city's money! For the sake of glory and further experience for our trireme rowers, ekdromoi and what I propose we call from now on a Thalassa Strategos who can lead the fight on the seas in case war comes and we need to fight anyone's navy!

And finally, on the matter of allies, I propose we ally with Lokri Epixephyrii on the auspices of holding them back from making trouble with Rhegion from now on, and Obander if you are listening tell that to Rhegion's leaders as an explanation the moment you step into the city! Tell them we are allying Lokri so we can restrain Lokri from attacking Rhegion's butt! In fact, go to Rhegion first and say that to them before going to Lokri with the alliance proposal! Giving Rhegion advance warning and consulting with them about it should lessen any hard feelings on Rhegion's part!

I have finished casting my votes, and shall now return to my thermopolium. Eat at Bryzos' Thermopolium! The oldest thermopolium in Eritrea, and the first thermopolium with multiple stores! We are present at the Eretria's Port District and Egnatia's Port District! We have good fish and squid dishes! Come and eat!

 

[Godwinson]

[X] [Cattle] Better to keep the drive decentralized [-1% tariff efficiency].
[X] [Mission] Illyrian Expedition: The time has come for more than a simple pirate-hunting expedition. For years Illyrian pirates have stalked the southern islands of the Liburni and threatened Eretrian trade eastwards. It is time for Eretria to seize these islands with a full expedition and establish a colony on the island of Issa, ending the threat of piracy in the Adriatic conclusively through the establishment of a new colony in the region for merchants to call home while building allies for Eretria among the Illyrians to ensure victory [3 Month campaign led by elected strategos, 500 Ekdromoi, 18 Triremes, 72 talents naval upkeep for campaign, if successful, new land for colony on Eastern Adriatic Island of Issa].
[X] [Italy] Lokri Epixephyrii. Although an ally of Syrakousai and Sparta, Lokri has begun to drift apart from her former friends in recent years due to the changing alliances and diplomatic situation in Italia, including the rise of Taras and the Peloponnesian War depriving them of aid. If we could gain an ally, Syrakousai would lose its only friend in Italy, though we would anger Rhegion and Krotone [-10 talents, Xenoparakletor will seek out an alliance with Lokri].

Hello everyone! It is I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis the psiloi, here once again to fulfill my civic duty as a citizen of Eretria Eschate!

I cast my vote on keeping the drive decentralized, in keeping with our decision to not support any Messapii leader over any other! In the first place, is not the solution of this simple problem a proper schedule according to a calendar? Let's just schedule when each city or realm will send their cattle to us, according to

And to address the root of this problem...why must we unite the Messapii cities under one ruler, when it is manifestly clear that the Northern Messapii have no desire to be placed under the rule of a Southern Messapii?! We would only be inviting discord and future headaches were we to force the Northern Messapii to start following the orders of Avarthios Artahas!

Besides, our grandfathers and fathers had already faced this problem before, in the matter of Turai and the Peucetii League! Recall that they voted to just separate Turai from the rest of the Peuketii so there would be no political headaches in forcing someone to follow someone else they don't like! I propose that the next time the power struggle among the Messapii affect us again that we simply repeat what our grandfathers did in regards to Turai and the Peuketii League! Separate Hyria, Caelion and Brention into states of their own just like Turai and Egnatia, while the Messapii League officially becomes just Neriton, Lupiae, Manduria and Rudiae!

As for the mission, I vote to send our fleet pirate hunting! In the absence of Kerkyra's navy in patrolling their side of what I propose we officially now call the Epulian Sea, pirates have multiplied like rats and flies, and strangling trade across the Epulian Sea in effect and hurting our city's finances! We must act! For the sake of our city's money! For the sake of glory and further experience for our trireme rowers, ekdromoi and what I propose we call from now on a Thalassa Strategos who can lead the fight on the seas in case war comes and we need to fight anyone's navy!

And finally, on the matter of allies, I propose we ally with Lokri Epixephyrii on the auspices of holding them back from making trouble with Rhegion from now on, and Obander if you are listening tell that to Rhegion's leaders as an explanation the moment you step into the city! Tell them we are allying Lokri so we can restrain Lokri from attacking Rhegion's butt! In fact, go to Rhegion first and say that to them before going to Lokri with the alliance proposal! Giving Rhegion advance warning and consulting with them about it should lessen any hard feelings on Rhegion's part!

I have finished casting my votes, and shall now return to my thermopolium. Eat at Bryzos' Thermopolium! The oldest thermopolium in Eritrea, and the first thermopolium with multiple stores! We are present at the Eretria's Port District and Egnatia's Port District! We have good fish and squid dishes! Come and eat!

Click to shrink...

"Stop hawking your wares, Hermesdora," Theopilos the Elder chastises in a dour tone, despite the smile on his face, "I already spend too much coin there."

 

[kilopi505]

@Cetashwayo, a question regarding something in your FAQ.

You explained many cities tightened citizenship rules to make it so both parents had to be citizens. You also explained only Greeks can be citizens. But what is Eretria's specific rule on Citizenship and on the requirements for attaining Metic status? Are we an exact copy of Athens in that, with exception in case of letting heroic metics become citizens? Or is there something else?

Can heroic non-Greek metics become citizens in Eretria? Can someone with a non-Greek metic mother and a citizen father be a citizen? Or is citizenship in case of citizen-metic offspring only applicable if the metic mother is an ethnic Greek?

 

[The Sandman]

Methodios is staying out of this vote, due to not actually being in the city at the moment. Were he here, he would likely slightly favor Krotone due to a desire to be proactive about our coalition-building before the Samnites start coming for Italia and Epulia in force, but could also see the advantages of the other two options.

Right now, however, he's probably either on Rhodes or Delos trying to coax some glass-smiths to come west with samples of the sands they'd have to work with near Brention, or if successful on that front he's in Egypt looking into purchasing natron. Once those legs of the expedition are over, he'll be in Cyrene acquiring silphium for his garden, which he's probably going to do by purchasing some whole plants and the soil they're rooted in, then potting them to be replanted at home. If needs be he'll also pay for one of the local silphium growers to relocate to Eretria so that he has someone who already knows how to work with it on staff.

Which, hopefully, will be the necessary first step in successfully growing it somewhere outside Cyrene. Partially for its immense value as a trade good, but also to see what the societal effects might be of retaining access to a relatively effective and safe female contraceptive/abortifacient past when silphium began its slide towards extinction IOTL.

As for why he'd be allowed to do this given the lengths nations have gone to throughout history to prevent similar efforts (China with silk, Portugal with cinchona, the Netherlands with nutmeg, etc.), it's because silphium was notorious for being impossible to grow anywhere else, and it seems that multiple people in antiquity tried using seeds, root cuttings and the like without success. So as far as the Cyrenaicans are concerned, Methodios would just be the next one in a string of wealthy individuals willing to pay them good money so he can fail to break their natural monopoly.

 

[Godwinson]

@Cetashwayo
Are there any resources you would recommend for getting an idea of the wages and prices for various things in this era? Or, heck, possibly a write-up regarding those things in Eretria?

 

[Skippy]

Also, let's not dip into "kill them all", even in-character. As I've said in the past I'm not a fan of people using the in-character voice as an opportunity to advocate for genocide or mass killing or what-have-you. It is certainly a thing that happened but let's keep it out of player posting.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, 'kill them all' really isnt Eretrias style anyway. Why would they kill you when they can pick a king and then make you filthy rich?

Also we have a habit of opting for peace when offered to us.

Click to shrink...

Killing our enemies would go against the time-honoured Eretrian tradition of BEFRIENDING