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Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

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[X] Jump in – The Maras are attacking now. Help Fairyland now without waiting for backup.
-[X] Warn Privateers that we're dealing with Brute that gets stronger up the more hits he take. They need some serious firepower if they want to be useful.
--[X] Tell Fairyland to stop attack, they only help him.
-[X] Use Frost Beam on him.
--[X] If ice holds, call PRT. You have a gift for them.
--[X] If not, use Temporal Sludge and Frost Beam to slow him down, Fairyland should retreat.
 
edale said:
We have already had one case where a deviceless mage turned the tide of a battle against us (Dragonslayers 1st confrontation).
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You're oversimplifying. We lost the first battle against the Dragonslayers for more reasons than Mags having Strong Shield. Samantha being knocked out, Dragon getting hacked, our earlier injury preventing us from going all-out, etc.
edale said:
And still, all this arguing against, without even considering the possibility that you might not be right. The ONLY way we'll know for sure how useful it will be is to actually train a parahuman to use magic without a device. (The adepts come to mind)

And for the record, ALL of this is OOC knowledge, we have no reason to think that magic affects parahuman power negatively at all IC.
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Also, there hasn't been a heavy emphasis of 'IC-only' knowledge in voting decisions. Certainly not a requirement.
 
Always Late said:
You're oversimplifying. We lost the first battle against the Dragonslayers for more reasons than Mags having Strong Shield. Samantha being knocked out, Dragon getting hacked, our earlier injury preventing us from going all-out, etc.
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True there were other factors involved (there always are in combat), but it can't be denied that if Mags didn't have Shell Barrier (I think that's the spell she used, not going back to check atm), then we would have quickly and easily won that fight. I think that even happened before Samantha got knocked out (again, not going back to check atm).

Basically that one spell, by that one deviceless mage, changed the course of the battle, turning an easy win into a hard loss.
Silently Watches said:
I do not give you useless mechanics. How useful they will be depends on how you use them.

That is all.
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That's pretty much what I've been trying to say from the start. Thank you for spelling it out so clearly.

Wish I could give more than one rating for a post, because you'd get a like, hug, informative, and an insightful for that one if I could.
 
landcollector said:
Fair enough. However, I do still think that in Missy's case in particular, if she has a weak core the tradeoffs are very substantial.
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There isn't even a tradeoff unless we wanted to give her a device for some reason. She gains an option. Part of her main power is weaker while using that option.

...so what?
Say you teach Clockblocker to cast a simple D rank shield spell, which will reduce his timestop duration to 1 second while he's casting. Is it a tradeoff?
Absolutely not, it's a straight buff. He can now close into melee with a shield up, drop the spell, THEN freeze the target.

Vista getting a spell which cuts her ability to twist space(but allows extending/contracting freely)? She currently has no offense/defense option other than distance, and that doesn't work on everything. We could probably fix offense easily enough by giving her a gun(much to the PRT's displeasure), but a shield spell would have bought time to react when Cadejo snuck up on her, or a Search spell to take even better advantage of her ability.

Refusing to even scan is just completely and utterly pointless.
Theres no tradeoff. There is a time cost to teaching, which may not be worthwhile, but there is no tradeoff unless and until you give them a device and burn out their parahuman ability.
It's basically like saying the tradeoff of a helmet is that it's hard to eat while wearing one. So you might as well not get a helmet
 
tyaty1 said:
She could also get more PR friendly weapon, like some fancy stungun, or a crossbow(like Flechette or SS).
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Even giving her a tazer suggests that she is intended to go into combat due to her visible youth(yes the reality is that she's winding up in combat but image), so the PRT is going to be annoyed regardless.

Vista on the other hand will celebrate getting a megaman blaster arm.
 
veekie said:
There isn't even a tradeoff unless we wanted to give her a device for some reason. She gains an option. Part of her main power is weaker while using that option.

...so what?
Say you teach Clockblocker to cast a simple D rank shield spell, which will reduce his timestop duration to 1 second while he's casting. Is it a tradeoff?
Absolutely not, it's a straight buff. He can now close into melee with a shield up, drop the spell, THEN freeze the target.

Vista getting a spell which cuts her ability to twist space(but allows extending/contracting freely)? She currently has no offense/defense option other than distance, and that doesn't work on everything. We could probably fix offense easily enough by giving her a gun(much to the PRT's displeasure), but a shield spell would have bought time to react when Cadejo snuck up on her, or a Search spell to take even better advantage of her ability.

Refusing to even scan is just completely and utterly pointless.
Theres no tradeoff. There is a time cost to teaching, which may not be worthwhile, but there is no tradeoff unless and until you give them a device and burn out their parahuman ability.
It's basically like saying the tradeoff of a helmet is that it's hard to eat while wearing one. So you might as well not get a helmet
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I've never said not scan, I don't understand why people keep trying to put words in my mouth.:confused:
 
landcollector said:
I've never said not scan, I don't understand why people keep trying to put words in my mouth.:confused:
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I think it got confused in the mess that was the OOC discussion before Vista's Guilt Trip vote and some people were advocating that if she happened to have a Linker Core then losing her powers to obtain magic would be a bad trade-off or that her powers are more valuable.

Which is something I disagree with, but let's burn that bridge when we cross it.
 
veekie said:
There isn't even a tradeoff unless we wanted to give her a device for some reason. She gains an option. Part of her main power is weaker while using that option.

...so what?
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So her main purpose in a fight is being hampered in exchange for something that is surpassed by anything Tim can make. Give Vista a sniper-scythe, give her power armor, give her an energy shield, recon drones, you name it.

Look, if folks want to advocate for more scanning, maybe use somebody other than Vista? Because the more potent a cape's power is, the less beneficial magic is. I'm not talking out of my ass here, I'm talking SWWOG.
veekie said:
Theres no tradeoff.
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Ever heard of Teacher?
veekie said:
a shield spell would have bought time to react when Cadejo snuck up on her, or a Search spell to take even better advantage of her ability.
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:Citation Needed:X2
mono-directional Shield stopping a swarm of unnaturally sharp claws?
Limit her power's ability to help her run?
landcollector said:
I've never said not scan, I don't understand why people keep trying to put words in my mouth.:confused:
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Because you're against 'us'. Thus, you must be lumped in with 'them'. Can't have nuance in arguments.:V
 
Always Late said:
:Citation Needed:X2
mono-directional Shield stopping a swarm of unnaturally sharp claws?
Limit her power's ability to help her run?
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She couldn't run fast enough to matter.
A shield would have bought her time for response to flee because the first hit wouldn't already maim her.
She's basically the textbook case for why its GOOD, because her power acts as a force amplifier for even weak spell effects, AND is large enough that generally she loses little even with a debuff because theres not enough room to use a Shaker 9 power.

Oh and as per word of SW, her basic stretch/shrink space ability is not debuffed much while casting. Only the 'advanced' warp space elements.

The debuff furthermore ONLY procs when she is casting and has thus already decided she needs the spell more than the ability to warp space. Shield spell + Contract Space would have reduced damage and let her flee while the shield tanks. Then drop the shield and regain her full power while she has clearance.

As such there is NO TRADEOFF. She gets a new option to allocate per round attention resource to.

The only question is whether the time investment in teaching is worth it.
 
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veekie said:
Oh and as per word of SW, her basic stretch/shrink space ability is not debuffed much while casting. Only the 'advanced' warp space elements and other case-by-case uses of her power.
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FTFY.
veekie said:
The debuff furthermore ONLY procs when she is casting and has thus already decided she needs the spell more than the ability to warp space. Shield spell + Contract Space would have reduced damage and let her flee while the shield tanks. Then drop the shield and regain her full power while she has clearance.
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Swarm, remember? Your strategy relies on Cadejo's dogs all being stopped at once by the shield, when it's been shown that he loves to use the extra dogs for surprise flanks.
 
Always Late said:
FTFY.

Swarm, remember? Your strategy relies on Cadejo's dogs all being stopped at once by the shield, when it's been shown that he loves to use the extra dogs for surprise flanks.
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Cadejo only got one hit in. Or Vista wouldn't be missing an arm. She'd be mincemeat.

Vista's per round options before and after learning magic(assume C rank, since below that she doesn't really merit the time):
-Before magic:
--Warp space
--Contract space
--Expand space

-After magic:
--Warp space
--Contract space
--Expand space
--Contract space + Spell
--Expand space + Spell

Net result, she has nearly doubled her combat options and is less likely to face a situation she can't deal with.
The whole tradeoff thing is complete bullshit, all her old options are still there and available at full power if desired

If you were arguing from a perspective of time efficiency instead you'd have a pretty solid case once we scan her and learn if she can at least maintain a shield that can stop a bullet or not. Below C rank it'd mainly be a quality of life feature and unlikely to be significant compared to conventional equipment.
 
This entire argument is getting tiresome and going in circles. Should a vote to scan Missy to see if she even has a Linker Core ever make the cut, the debate can be revisited at that time.
 
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Silently Watches said:
I love that everyone is focused on combat magic.
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It's the minmaxxer's dilema - people assume that shooting a man for 15d6 is the optimal route, so they optimise for that, but don't realise that you can win the entire encounter with the weakest trick in the book plus a few things that work in an interesting manner. For example, Telekinesis (if properly applied) can be incredible, and Wide Area Search lets you do Search and Reconnaisance stuff. Also? Aerial Combat is a spell. Going from 2d movement to full 3d movement is a MASSIVE leap in combat tactics. Also, if we find someone with an A-rank or higher Linker Core, we can give them Barrier Jacket and Aerial Combat, essentially handing out combined Brute/Mover packages. Because turning someone whose Parahuman power is being strong into a fully-fledged Alexandria Package with a custom outfit they can call up is hillariously good.
 
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