Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

Except the lethality part. Taylor was shaken up enough after Durham and being indirectly responsible for two deaths just now to go all trigger happy right now. Remember that mental health is something that this character has and we have no control over (thankfully). Let's avoid jumping on lethal from the get-go, shall we?
This is... a bit of a calculated bit of character development here.
This is Mara Salvatrucha.
They crippled Missy because Taylor held back, they're basically a terrorist group, they hold a massive bloody vendetta over anyone who kills their members, and they decided an S-Class Truce was the time to make a takeover play. Kind of like the Simurgh-compromised, Quarentine-breaking Neo-Nazi group that's been directly involved in going after the Dockworkers Union.

Also, Taylor's not in a good headspace right now.
Her father's brain-dead, she's living with family friends she's not entirely getting along with, and she just made a big compromise to her long-standing morals by actively aiding villains. All Durham got her was some askance looks. Samantha saved her life by turning a bunch of MS-13 goons into meat. And by causing a bit of property damage, she shut down a villain group that's been hobbling one of the greatest heroes in the world for decades.


TL;DR, Taylor's only going lethal because she's mentally out of sorts and is facing a uniquely personal enemy.
TL;DR 2, If I may borrow a quote from General Mattis, we tried 'we come in peace. we won't go after you'. The enemy in response escalated things to the point of 'If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all'.
 
This is... a bit of a calculated bit of character development here.
This is Mara Salvatrucha.
They crippled Missy because Taylor held back, they're basically a terrorist group, they hold a massive bloody vendetta over anyone who kills their members, and they decided an S-Class Truce was the time to make a takeover play. Kind of like the Simurgh-compromised, Quarentine-breaking Neo-Nazi group that's been directly involved in going after the Dockworkers Union.

Also, Taylor's not in a good headspace right now.
Her father's brain-dead, she's living with family friends she's not entirely getting along with, and she just made a big compromise to her long-standing morals by actively aiding villains. All Durham got her was some askance looks. Samantha saved her life by turning a bunch of MS-13 goons into meat. And by causing a bit of property damage, she shut down a villain group that's been hobbling one of the greatest heroes in the world for decades.

There's a bit of a difference here, I think.

Simurgh victims aren't dangerous for their insanity, hell, most look normal until they detonate. Their threat comes for the purposes and pulls put on them by Ziz; in effect, they are a massive Golberg machine with an enormous potential for danger if not neutralized, be it by containment or execution. For example, look at what happened at Lima, as it was mentioned earlier in the quest.

The Mara's... sure, they are horrible and dangerous people, but once dealt with there's no grand machination, any long-term scheme waiting to happen. They may be broken out of jail, but if Salvatrucha as an organization is dealt with in this arc there's not really any reason to kill them.

Besides:
Instead a Flare Shooter hits a gang member carrying a handheld grenade launcher. His partner swings his rifle to aim at you, but that leaves them both open to the bullets from the Winter Hill soldiers that splatter the contents of their heads onto the road.

Nausea wells up in you, but you force it down. It's disgusting and visceral, but it still isn't as bad as disintegrating people in nuclear fire the way you did in Durham.

Again, that right there was indirect. Taylor doesn't enjoy killing people, and yes, she isn't in her best mindspace, so why do you think making her kill when there're other options would be a good idea? Do you want her to have a full on mental breakdown?

Not trying to be abrasive, I'm genuinely curious why you think letal is the best choice here.
 
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I'm not so sure about going lethal here. As a reminder this is what Silently Watches said just a week ago in regards to loosening the non-lethal settings to cause more damage:
Finally… you already have reputation as someone who's a bit too powerful for an independent player. Do you really want to get a reputation for brutality, particularly after Sam's bloodbath in 6.11? If you do, fine, but the other characters won't forget it and will continue to act on that knowledge even after the arc ends, enemies and allies both.

I think this warning applies doubly to using lethal force. Especially when it's known we can adjust our spells to be non-lethal. Sure the villains are killing the Maras but remember we're a hero. Being know for actively choosing to kill people is something the public, and government, are going to find very concerning considering Calamity Witch's power level.
 
I'm not so sure about going lethal here. As a reminder this is what Silently Watches said just a week ago in regards to loosening the non-lethal settings to cause more damage:


I think this warning applies doubly to using lethal force. Especially when it's known we can adjust our spells to be non-lethal. Sure the villains are killing the Maras but remember we're a hero. Being know for actively choosing to kill people is something the public, and government, are going to find very concerning considering Calamity Witch's power level.

This.

That the villains are killing the Mara's doesn't mean us, or the other heroes by that matter, should. We are working within the law, after all.
 
Again, that right there was indirect. Taylor doesn't enjoy killing people, and yes, she isn't in her best mindspace, so why do you think making her kill when there're other options would be a good idea? Do you want her to have a full on mental breakdown?

Not trying to be abrasive, I'm genuinely curious why you think letal is the best choice here.
To speak from the mental standpoint, you're misrepresenting things. Taylor basically walked off the nuclear fire she laid down before, so saying that this is somehow worse because she saw two guys get headshotted is... inaccurate. Or something to take up with the author.
The Mara's... sure, they are horrible and dangerous people, but once dealt with there's no grand machination, any long-term scheme waiting to happen. They may be broken out of jail, but if Salvatrucha as an organization is dealt with in this arc there's not really any reason to kill them.
I'm not so sure about going lethal here. As a reminder this is what Silently Watches said just a week ago in regards to loosening the non-lethal settings to cause more damage:

I think this warning applies doubly to using lethal force. Especially when it's known we can adjust our spells to be non-lethal. Sure the villains are killing the Maras but remember we're a hero. Being know for actively choosing to kill people is something the public, and government, are going to find very concerning considering Calamity Witch's power level.
To these accusations that this isn't the best option to deal with MS-13 I say... really, really, really think about who we're dealing with. And Remember Corpus Christi.

We know exactly what MS-13 is doing here:
"Only a few years ago, they set off a similar gang war in Corpus Christi in Texas, and just like here in Philly, in doing so they set themselves up against all the gangs and independent parahumans who lived in the area. It is, however, the first time they have moved so blatantly during an Endbringer fight. Attacking the Winter Hill gang would be a large enough move, but to do that and kill both of the Warlock's capes? That is unusually aggressive even for them."
The Protectorate technically won, but only because the Maras finally decided it would be easier to leave obviously, let the heat die down, and then slip back in with no one the wiser until they were back in full force. It helped that most of their rival gangs got ganked over the course of that war, and those that were left were those the Protectorate thought the local capes could handle on their own. Which means they were weak enough that they couldn't pose much threat to the Maras, or technically the "new" gang that was Mara Salvatrucha in everything but name and still reported to the bosses in Mexico.
Escalate and keep up the pressure until the other side tires out, then slip back in to steal the prize.

MS-13 has zero chance of being finished off in this arc. They will come back, and in greater numbers, probably with lots of bombings and killings. So what do we do? We make them believe the heat will never cool down. Make them go after weaker, softer targets. Every operation they do, every cape they send in the city, they either get run out or sent back as cooked meat. In short, we have to make the city too much trouble for MS-13 to feel like they have to bother with, and the only way they'll reach that conclusion is if so much of their infrastructure, revenue, manpower is wiped out that their other criminal operations start collapsing.

EDIT: Also, we already know the gov't and prt's having private freak-outs about our ability to mass-murder. We've already gone past the point of caring about that, and someone who still does, there's interludes to re-read.
 
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To speak from the mental standpoint, you're misrepresenting things. Taylor basically walked off the nuclear fire she laid down before, so saying that this is somehow worse because she saw two guys get headshotted is... inaccurate. Or something to take up with the author.


To these accusations that this isn't the best option to deal with MS-13 I say... really, really, really think about who we're dealing with. And Remember Corpus Christi.

What @UberJJK quoted was the GM talking about this current arc, if I'm not mistaken. If anything, it sounds like staying non-lethal is the prefered choice.

And what Taylor was doing on Durham was clearly repressing. That's not a solved issue nor has she dealt with it; to start shooting to kill would only add up to the trauma.

We know exactly what MS-13 is doing here:

Escalate and keep up the pressure until the other side tires out, then slip back in to steal the prize.

MS-13 has zero chance of being finished off in this arc. They will come back, and in greater numbers, probably with lots of bombings and killings. So what do we do? We make them believe the heat will never cool down. Make them go after weaker, softer targets. Every operation they do, every cape they send in the city, they either get run out or sent back as cooked meat. In short, we have to make the city too much trouble for MS-13 to feel like they have to bother with, and the only way they'll reach that conclusion is if so much of their infrastructure, revenue, manpower is wiped out that their other criminal operations start collapsing.

I can see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. I think that going lethal is the worst choice on both the mental and strategic sense when there are other methods available.

That, and using lethal to me sounds like it'd make them escalate even harder. When you think that there're no outcomes other than winning or being killed, you end up fighting even harder.

@Silently Watches, would you mind piping in on Taylor's mental state and what impact killing would have on her?
 
[X]Plan Sky Command
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're a heroine after all.
(edit: makes sense)
Except would prefer non-lethal. From both a mental stand point and political stand point being known to cut through swaths of people is not a good thing. On one side you'll become more numb to violence along with the guilt, on the other there's going to be more aggressive actions likely to come at you because of it, and I'm not just talking from villains either.
 
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[X]Plan Sky Command
Except would prefer non-lethal. From both a mental stand point and political stand point being known to cut through swaths of people is not a good thing. On one side you'll become more numb to violence along with the guilt, on the other there's going to be more aggressive actions likely to come at you because of it, and I'm not just talking from villains either.

You need to add a line if you want to go for non-lethal, as the original plan is lethal by default.

[X]Plan Sky Command Restrained Version
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're a heroine after all.
 
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[X] Always Late

Some considerations to the discussion of Lethal versus Non-lethal:

  • How are we/Taylor going to feel if we use non-lethal options on our targets, only for Winter Hill to come behind us and finish them off (as they arguably just did, but perhaps more blatantly 'aim down at unconscious' later?). Tactically for players, it potentially lets them do the dirty work for the same result (less reputation effects, good or bad). But for Taylor, will she get upset? Regret siding with them? Feel comparable guilt to doing it herself?
  • How is Taylor going to feel if she uses nonlethal, and specifically sees one of the attackers from this fight pose a threat later? (Any of being awoken in this fight somehow, or escaping/being-dragged-away and coming to a later one).
  • Do we expect that Winter Hill will gossip about our using non-lethal like they are, or cover it up? There is another fire user here after all, who might mask our role, but even our flare shooters likely leave enough radiation to look for if investigators bother to.
  • Considering there are seven teams actively deployed, and how much trouble a raid on a prison transport by MS-13 caused when the PRT had much less distracting their forces, what do we/Taylor expect to come of using non-lethal force? Taking prisoners and trying to transport them (will we teleport to a facility ourselves maybe, or spend other time escorting it?) or something else?
  • Do we want to be making the argument, and would Taylor want to/like herself if she did, that police are villainous for following a standard procedure of "Use center-mass lethal force when fired upon, non-lethal is for before weapons come out. Use one step of force above opposition" ? Do police even still follow such procedures in a world where containment foam and other technology is potentially available to all of them and not just anti-Hero units (I have no idea) ? Is the argument invalid, because being a hero is about having the Luxury to take a less-safe strategy with no loss of efficacy?
  • How does range play into the significance of lethal force? While morally the same, pragmatically being up close with Flare Blade is going to be a very different experience for her than standard back and tossing little burny tennis balls (and any filtering of the results will be more subtle at range).
  • Has Taylor learned anything from her past encounters with MS-13 and others, whether it is the risks of sandbagging (Vista's injury and possibly Dragons suit being stolen, as nonlethal has failure modes that lethal seems to lack, besides the direct implication of enemy living to fight another day) or the way that these enemies in particular respond to non-lethal and lethal force used against them? Do we want her to have learned and changed from the events, or do we prefer that she stick to her principles and just work harder to make them succeed?
  • What will Winter Hill here, and any other future villain-allies-of-convenience , think of our holding back while their lives are on the line? Are they used to it working with heroes, will they be less inclined to step up and help in the future (would using lethal make them respect us and offer things they don't to Heroes) ? Do we even care what they think, begrudging as this alliance is?
Other considerations to note... using Frost Beam here would be showing off a currently-secret power we hoped to use against Cadejo, and with the big guy here we risk looking like a power-copier or otherwise revising our threat status as its another new power on a seemingly different "theme" from our others. More generally, using exotic tactics here shows off our strategies where simple careful artillery cover might not, and strategy is possibly more important against the unusual and varying threats of capes? On the other hand, using an ice-themed power here might catch Jotunn's attention in a way that the story gets back to Cailleach as an interesting tidbit to share, and who knows what scenes could be the fruit :3 ?

In any case, I'm fine with this current strategy I think. Moreso if Strong Shield is based on five-times our Knight Armor and not five-times our Barrier Jacket (I forget if that was ever specified, feel like its been asked). Charging into melee would bring Samantha more directly into play, give a little more control on Winter Hill's actions (assuming they don't risk hitting us...) , and potentially bring us too close to use certain anti-Brute measures like an RPG. On the other hand, I think all of us are a little gun-shy from the fear of Anti-Brute tasers, and even Knight Armor may not be brutey enough to casually laugh off gunfire (which is not the same as reliably tanking hits we can't dodge, I assume with flare blade we'd just charge in and soak it largely).

We are a bombardment mage though, and after eating an RPG after one measely shot (did we ever hear how much our contribution did to that fight, or did Samantha leave it irrelevant and settled? We did disarm several gangers beforehand) I have a petty desire to redeem our reputation for managing it against a live field and not just for ambush-strikes.
 
And what Taylor was doing on Durham was clearly repressing. That's not a solved issue nor has she dealt with it; to start shooting to kill would only add up to the trauma.
We can't exactly sit down with Yamada you know. Besides, considering Durham and what happened really never even got mentioned in Maskless IIRC, I don't think there's repression going on. It's just normal coping. Bottom line though, MS-13's got the same kind of context and mental baggage the E88 had, which makes going lethal alot more palatable.
I can see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. I think that going lethal is the worst choice on both the mental and strategic sense when there are other methods available.
Which you've yet to share with anyone.
That, and using lethal to me sounds like it'd make them escalate even harder. When you think that there're no outcomes other than winning or being killed, you end up fighting even harder.
Except, if you had actually read the quotes I used, they don't have unlimited resources, unbreakable morale, or 40k Commissars. They have a breaking point. By turning up the heat high enough, they run. So no, they won't fight harder.

Come on Lance, you can put together a better argument than that.
Except would prefer non-lethal. From both a mental stand point and political stand point being known to cut through swaths of people is not a good thing. On one side you'll become more numb to violence along with the guilt, on the other there's going to be more aggressive actions likely to come at you because of it, and I'm not just talking from villains either.
That's alot of trite and empty saying to deconstruct... hookay, summary time.

'political standpoint', again, we already crossed that bridge in Durham.
'more numb to violence and guilt' is not a universally imposed rule. It's all dependent on the individual and environment. Taylor's been pretty good about not going kill-crazy, so this shouldn't push her over the edge.
'more aggressive actions: Villains', I just talked about being considered too much trouble to go after, would you like me to use Lung or Nilbog as additional examples?
'More aggressive actions: Heroes', That's just not how they roll, flat stop. They don't try to bully S-class heroes. They won't try to push us around.
 
What @UberJJK quoted was the GM talking about this current arc, if I'm not mistaken. If anything, it sounds like staying non-lethal is the prefered choice.
I was speaking generally. Regarding this arc, remember that MM hinted that the PRT's stance right now was capture if possible, kill if not.
In any case, I'm fine with this current strategy I think. Moreso if Strong Shield is based on five-times our Knight Armor and not five-times our Barrier Jacket (I forget if that was ever specified, feel like its been asked).
Strong Shield is based off your Barrier Jacket, but your Barrier Jacket is also now as strong as a Knight's armor, so… yes.
(did we ever hear how much our contribution did to that fight, or did Samantha leave it irrelevant and settled? We did disarm several gangers beforehand)
You destroyed a lot of the gangers' small arms in that fight, which normally would have given the heroes/Winter Hill a definite advantage. It also meant that instead of Samantha fighting MS-13, she just straight-up butchered them.
on the other there's going to be more aggressive actions likely to come at you because of it, and I'm not just talking from villains either.
Exceptions get made in Truce situations like this. Now. would there have been more aggression had you chosen to fight everyone, abso-friggin-lutely, but right now not so much because you would be fighting lethally alongside your normal enemies.

And last but not least
@Silently Watches, would you mind piping in on Taylor's mental state and what impact killing would have on her?
Taylor understandably still feels guilty about what she did in Durham. Keep in mind that she isn't an assassin, a soldier, a conflict-driven cape, or a hyper-competent hyper-rational SV armchair quarterback. (Not a jab against anyone in this thread, but I think you know the kind of people I'm talking about). She's a fifteen-year-old girl who before January was too worried about what would happen afterwards to fight the three girls bullying her. She knows killing E88 was necessary, but that doesn't make it easy.

If you vote for her to kill, she will. She'll know this is a cruel necessity just like E88. The difference is that this time, it won't be because they're Ziz-bombs. It will be because they're monstrous human beings all on their own, and if she needs to kill these monsters, what about the next? The ones after that? Have her go lethal on less and less extreme circumstances, and you run the risk that eventually she might wind up going lethal without consciously deciding to do so. You've already seen the first step of that when she fought against the Dragonslayers the first time and made her Flare Shooters as hot as they could possibly be. That wouldn't have happened had she not gone lethal in Durham.*

I won't promise when such a thing will happen, either. Might be in a couple of arcs. Might be next fight. All I'll says is that your choices will determine what circumstances lethality becomes something other than a last ditch measure.

Probably. I never plan out all the little details of a chapter before I write it, so I can't say for sure that I wouldn't have written the scene that way, but I seem to recall thinking about the Durham fight while writing it.
 
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PRT dislikes lethal force unless authorized, as well as the fact that every prisoner is one more chance of receiving more intelligence about the enemy.

On the flipside though, In this situation, we already know that they will engage lethally. If they use lethal force lethal force is authorized. This is the most likely outcome.

If they for some reason use non-lethal force, Switch to non-lethal and proceed to restrain them. Least likely outcome.

This is technically a war (on crime) now... Most of them signed up for this and knew the consequences. Now, they pay with their life. They already had a chance to surrender, so now they are willing combatants.

Think as of us as a SWAT team preparing to breach and clear a house. They have Lethal authorization when they enter. But they give them a chance to surrender. If the suspects fight, they can and will engage.

MS-13 has already shown to kill innocents for da evuls. We shall return no quarter to every willing enemy participant.

'More aggressive actions: Heroes', That's just not how they roll, flat stop. They don't try to bully S-class heroes. They won't try to push us around.

Yeah, because who in the world pisses off a living WMD? Especially one that has shown to engage top tier parahumans before and win.

Well nowadays...

Not to mention villains. We're like a M1A2/M109 combination while they've only got an M4 with the occasional LAW. They really can't do anything unless they decide to pile us in numbers somehow. Not to mention we got our own infantry support (allies, if the metaphor wasn't obvious).
 
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We can't exactly sit down with Yamada you know. Besides, considering Durham and what happened really never even got mentioned in Maskless IIRC, I don't think there's repression going on. It's just normal coping. Bottom line though, MS-13's got the same kind of context and mental baggage the E88 had, which makes going lethal alot more palatable.

Eh, I disagree. Then again I'm not the GM, so I wouldn't know for sure. The human mind is surprisingly good at avoiding things it doesn't want to deal with.

Which you've yet to share with anyone.

I didn't think I needed to? The same spells we've been using through the quest work as well on either mode, the only difference is the outcome.

Except, if you had actually read the quotes I used, they don't have unlimited resources, unbreakable morale, or 40k Commissars. They have a breaking point. By turning up the heat high enough, they run. So no, they won't fight harder.

Oh, sure. But a desperate foe is a dangerous one. If they know they'll be killed that'll just make them go at it even harder; they literally have nothing to lose, so they'll be prone to recklessness and brutality over survival.

They will eventually run away, but by going lethal the battle becomes even more brutal, and all the more difficult and dangerous for the defenders, villains and heroes alike.

Come on Lance, you can put together a better argument than that.

I'll take that as compliment.

But maybe we could reach a compromise? The battle's just started, we don't have that clear of a picture; for all we know the defenders have managed to blitzkrieg the Mara and going lethal is unnecessary (as unlikely as that is).

Can we stay our hands this update, reassess the situation and decide whether the situation merits lethality next week?

Also:

If you vote for her to kill, she will. She'll know this is a cruel necessity just like E88. The difference is that this time, it won't be because they're Ziz-bombs. It will be because they're monstrous human beings all on their own, and if she needs to kill these monsters, what about the next? The ones after that? Have her go lethal on less and less extreme circumstances, and you run the risk that eventually she might wind up going lethal without consciously deciding to do so. You've already seen the first step of that when she fought against the Dragonslayers the first time and made her Flare Shooters as hot as they could possibly be. That wouldn't have happened had she not gone lethal in Durham.*

Choosing to kill seems to be if not a slippery slope, then a rocky road. Call me naive, but I'd rather this Taylor stay closer this side of sanity than her canon self. Let the poor girl retain the humanity for once.
Adhoc vote count started by LancerisDead on Sep 2, 2017 at 3:16 AM, finished with 124 posts and 48 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by LancerisDead on Sep 2, 2017 at 3:17 AM, finished with 52 posts and 19 votes.
 
If people want her to go lethal here, can we not just do a non-lethal Solar Wrath instead? Wide area search to make sure no civilians would get caught up in it, Solar Wrath, put out fires with Frost Beam.
 
If people want her to go lethal here, can we not just do a non-lethal Solar Wrath instead? Wide area search to make sure no civilians would get caught up in it, Solar Wrath, put out fires with Frost Beam.

It was mentioned in-update, but the problem with Solar Wrath is all those nice innocent buildings/vehicles/other-property that get in the way of the beam as the enemies are hiding amongst them for cover. Not to mention any risks involved with incompletely wrecking the terrain, whether its a gas main leak because we knicekd the road (and then sparks from gunfire and missed shots) or a building they're in toppling because we took out one of the support beams. I don't know if they're quite as clustered up as the last fight with MS-13, but SW did say how effective even the flurry of rust shooters was despite what it did to us.

But whether its Solar Wrath or Flare Shooter or whatever, the unanswered question is what happens after a successful non-lethal victory? Will Winter Hill just sit back and ignore the dazed enemies, will they shrug and let the guys get away with prison time while their friends are dead, will the prisoners get safely transported and securely held by a gang known to recruit and operate inside prisons as well?

Miss Militia does want us to capture if possible, but that was given at the outset and now they have seven teams actively deployed and more keep seeming to pop up. Seven seperate attacks in the space of twenty-seven hours or so, and anyone spent guarding transports is someone who's distracted and maybe leaving the city while more attacks happen. And any losses taken during this battle are wasted if even one of those prison transports gets sprung and the knocked-out MS goons go back to fighting.

But I do see the point about rocky roads and slippery slopes, and how this is an easy argument to apply elsewhere. It seems to me a smallish step, as the "risk of escape" is not remotely comparable with Capes who follow the unwritten code and don't kill (Cadejo and MS-13 are seemingly rare for this?), and not truely comparable when forces are at their usual and not stretched thin between recent-Endbringer and S-class-Beast-Attacks AND a full out gang War to make RL "gang wars" seem a playground scuffle.

I wonder what Militia would say if we called in and asked whats the status on containing captured MS-13 so far, are we stretched too thin etc. I suspect she wouldn't like saying "yeah we are too busy to bother, just kill them" but it would be a nice detail to have on hand.

It looks like, with the clear mention of "Isn't it lucky Winter Hill is here" and mention of their specific roster and numbers, that none of the Winter Hill are yet dead? Jotunn's ice-car barrier seems effective so far. So that could shape our lethality and tactics a bit. If there were Winter Hill dead on the ground I feel like it'd modify Taylors impulse to hold back, but its not quite clear she needs to go all out? They seem to be doing fine thus far even before we show up with WAS-guided sniping (that grenade launcher could've done nasty things to the car cover potentially, so its already improved).

@Silently Watches can we get confirmation that there are currently no Winter Hill bodies in sight, at least? It'd be pure bonus if we knew any more details on casualties so far (I know the Warlocks capes were mentioned specifically, how about non-capes?) but less important since its not "protecting lives right this moment".
 
[X]Plan Sky Command
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're aheroine after all.
 
It was mentioned in-update, but the problem with Solar Wrath is all those nice innocent buildings/vehicles/other-property that get in the way of the beam as the enemies are hiding amongst them for cover. Not to mention any risks involved with incompletely wrecking the terrain, whether its a gas main leak because we knicekd the road (and then sparks from gunfire and missed shots) or a building they're in toppling because we took out one of the support beams. I don't know if they're quite as clustered up as the last fight with MS-13, but SW did say how effective even the flurry of rust shooters was despite what it did to us.

My point was just that if people want to go lethal for the sake of convenience, there are other options. Being willing to cause property damage or risk the lives of the people she's fighting seems a less gruesome step than moving straight to "kill 'em all."
 
Hey all, just joining.

I'd actually like to know more about the surroundings and enemy deployment. Because I have the sinking suspicion were once again ignoring what we're good at. Remember: Calamity Witch is artillery. We are made of fire and bombardment spells, so I'd prefer this engagement be treated strategically. Which is to say, decisive action that fundamentally alters the flow of battle is more likely to get my vote.

For example, can we just light all the mooks on fire all at once? Cook off their ammunition? Lob a Jerry can of petrol at them or torch a car near them? Drop a water tower on them? Smoke them out by cooking the tar out of the asphalt? Go bowling with thug pins and a ball named Solar Wrath?

It's too bad we flew in blatantly like a damn novice and lost the element of surprise. Even if we get out of sight now, they'll still be that much harder to get the drop on.
 
[X]Plan Sky Command
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're a heroine after all.

Lethal doesn't even HELP. Unless it's a cape.
 
[X]Plan Sky Command
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're a heroine after all.
 
[X]Plan Sky Command
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're a heroine after all.
--[x] Exception: smoke mr. Turns Into Dogs on sight.
 
[X]Plan Sky Command
-[X]Stay on non-lethal unless it's absolutely necessary; you're a heroine after all.

Some considerations to the discussion of Lethal versus Non-lethal:

  • How are we/Taylor going to feel if we use non-lethal options on our targets, only for Winter Hill to come behind us and finish them off (as they arguably just did, but perhaps more blatantly 'aim down at unconscious' later?). Tactically for players, it potentially lets them do the dirty work for the same result (less reputation effects, good or bad). But for Taylor, will she get upset? Regret siding with them? Feel comparable guilt to doing it herself?
  • That will remind Taylor that while Winter Hill are nicer villains they're still villains and, when our little alliance of convinience will end, they should be dealt with.

  • How is Taylor going to feel if she uses nonlethal, and specifically sees one of the attackers from this fight pose a threat later? (Any of being awoken in this fight somehow, or escaping/being-dragged-away and coming to a later one).
  • Something like that already happened. Taylor caught Rune, but later she was with Empire in Durham. Does that means we should had have kill her, not arrest her? Does that means we should kill all villains?

  • Do we expect that Winter Hill will gossip about our using non-lethal like they are, or cover it up? There is another fire user here after all, who might mask our role, but even our flare shooters likely leave enough radiation to look for if investigators bother to.
  • I don't understand a question. Do you mean, Solaire may kill someone with her flame sword and then claim that it was our doing? But we'll have WAS records that proves she's lying. Or do you mean it's the other way around - Taylor'll kill Maras, but Winter Hill will say that was Solaire? But Miss Militia didn't prohibit the lethal response, and I don't want to be in villains debt.

  • Considering there are seven teams actively deployed, and how much trouble a raid on a prison transport by MS-13 caused when the PRT had much less distracting their forces, what do we/Taylor expect to come of using non-lethal force? Taking prisoners and trying to transport them (will we teleport to a facility ourselves maybe, or spend other time escorting it?) or something else?
  • 'We have troubles with prisoners transportation' doesn't make 'Take no prisoners!' right response. That's not a total war, whatever Maras thinking. Offer help with transportation would be a good idea, I think.

  • Do we want to be making the argument, and would Taylor want to/like herself if she did, that police are villainous for following a standard procedure of "Use center-mass lethal force when fired upon, non-lethal is for before weapons come out. Use one step of force above opposition" ? Do police even still follow such procedures in a world where containment foam and other technology is potentially available to all of them and not just anti-Hero units (I have no idea) ? Is the argument invalid, because being a hero is about having the Luxury to take a less-safe strategy with no loss of efficacy?
  • Police don't have full-body forcefield that capable to tank RPG, supersonic flight or any other way to deal with bullets. It's logical that for them boundaries of 'safe enough to try non-lethal' are different than for heroes. I don't remember police ever used con-foam.

  • How does range play into the significance of lethal force? While morally the same, pragmatically being up close with Flare Blade is going to be a very different experience for her than standard back and tossing little burny tennis balls (and any filtering of the results will be more subtle at range).
  • Yes, I think going into melee and disarm/behead enemies with lightsaber will influence Taylor more than just shooting them.
  • Has Taylor learned anything from her past encounters with MS-13 and others, whether it is the risks of sandbagging (Vista's injury and possibly Dragons suit being stolen, as nonlethal has failure modes that lethal seems to lack, besides the direct implication of enemy living to fight another day) or the way that these enemies in particular respond to non-lethal and lethal force used against them? Do we want her to have learned and changed from the events, or do we prefer that she stick to her principles and just work harder to make them succeed?
  • We know that non-lethal attacks are useless against Cadejo. But I don't think that immunity applies to normal gangsters.

  • What will Winter Hill here, and any other future villain-allies-of-convenience , think of our holding back while their lives are on the line? Are they used to it working with heroes, will they be less inclined to step up and help in the future (would using lethal make them respect us and offer things they don't to Heroes) ? Do we even care what they think, begrudging as this alliance is?
  • I don't care about villains respect.
 
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