AnimalKrazed
Caw Caw!
- Location
- Above You
Is it possible for us to inform the PRT why we aren't going to Behemoth fight if we decide not to?
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Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)
- Thread starter Silently Watches
- Start date
Possible, sure. But not necessary. IIRC, while there is a form of peer pressure to attend in most cases, we cannot be forced to show up.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
I wouldn't think that's necessary. Folks opt out of the near-certain-death Endbringer battles regularly, and it's known our weapons are heat and radiation.
Yep, all we need to say to justify it is "I'm not sure if my attacks are immune from Behemoth hijacking them." and they'd accept it. Nobody want to see what Behemoth would do with access to our stuff.
- Location
- Earth: Universe Meta - 1
Isn't one of the Dragonslayers a tinker 0 or something. As for revealing dragon's nature. All I was suggesting was fixing her in private. Sure, the Dragonslayers could then attempt to reveal it, but a fully unshackled dragon (and Perfect Storm) should at least keep the damage to a minimum.
Given that I don't the the GM would have Taylor go with my attack plan against the Dragonslayers (overkill), I half wonder if Behemoth is the safer fight.
RoninSword
Sky God
- Location
- Canada
Ascalon would be back at their base, so you would have to interrogate them to get the location, and then you would have to hope beyond hope that anyone they left at the base doesn't activate Ascalon as a fuck you to Saint and the rest being captured.
Saint has a tinker 0 rating because he can do maintenance on the Dragon tech from the last dregs of Teacher's power in his system. Since power ratings are threat assessments, all that means is that without tech, a squad of PRT troopers could take him out without worrying about him tinkering up some counter out of garbage. It does not make him a para-human. Which means that he would be sent to regular prison, not PRT containment.
- Location
- Elsewhere
I think our best bet would be to move the radio, but keep up surveillance on the site anyway (non-magically). We won't be able to catch the Dragonslayers or prove that they're truce-breakers or anything, but we will be able to confirm that they're actively trying to steal from us. This is the simplest solution I can think of that has the lowest chance of backfiring on us.
And hey, if someone EMP's the area to take out our cameras, it's not like we can't guess who done it. You aren't fooling anyone Saint.
As for the spell we'd get for going to the fight, we have eight options. I'd rank them as:
And hey, if someone EMP's the area to take out our cameras, it's not like we can't guess who done it. You aren't fooling anyone Saint.
As for the spell we'd get for going to the fight, we have eight options. I'd rank them as:
- Divide Energy: Helps us keep Sam safe and in fighting shape. Sam helps keep us safe and in fighting shape.
- Shell Barrier: Would have been useful last endbringer fight, if I remember correctly. Might be able to save a few lives with it.
- Telekinesis: Good for moving rubble around, probably useful for search and rescue
- Burst: We have better blasting spells if we want to hit Behemoth. Burst is likely more useful against smaller opponents.
- Reforge Armor: Would probably be ranked higher if we weren't 0/4 in it.
- Frost Beam: Ice generation may be useful, but I can't see it doing much at all against Behemoth directly. It's another spell that would be much more useful against smaller opponents.
- Misteltein: A powerful spell, but Behemoth may not be technically alive and thus immune to petrification. Even if he wasn't, I'd imagine he'd resist the effect heavily.
- Ring Bind: An anti-personnel spell that is completely useless unless we're worried about restraining other parahumans or civilians.
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Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Nope, Behemoth's still the riskier fight.
That's because Saint let Teacher give him temporary code-understanding powers, not because he's an actual parahuman.
Not an option. This keeps getting brought up, but it doesn't change things.
- Location
- Sweden
We don't have time to set that up, and the radio is already in a different place.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
I think it's less about Saint per se than it is about the broader assumptions and implications of the truce. The truce exists because without it participation plummets because any individual cape is no longer willing to risk his enemies taking advantage of an endbringer attack to advance their own goals. Lower participation means responders can no longer mount meaningful defense due to lack of manpower which in turn means orders of magnitude more civilian deaths (as well as a higher rate of cape deaths since you can't afford to do basic things like combat rotations to keep people fresh, or have sufficient frontline to keep the endbringer off your S&R (which in turn would also have a negative impact on turnout)).
Lack of participation means the world dies that much quicker.
So it's less that Saint in particular is breaking the truce than it is about the cape community in aggregate. Someone is violating the truce and if someone can get away with it, that means others can too which brings us to that downward spiral. This is a death sentence for the world and will thus invite a heavy-handed response.
This doesn't necessarily mean that there'll be an immediate world-wide manhunt for Saint. It does mean that Saint jumps to the tops of a lot of important people's shit lists since the world cannot afford to lets his behavior to go unpunished. A much more reasonable expectation is that people and institutions are going to be much more responsive to Saint sightings than they were previously. Legend, say, is more likely to prioritize subsequent SOS' from Dragon.
It doesn't matter if they can be referred to as truce-breakers, because the truce doesn't apply to them. And even if there was a visible consequence from them trying to steal our shit, it won't matter because we've lost a very good chance to take care of them right now. We already know that there's a good chance for them to come and try to steal more TSAB tech away from us because of how they attacked us when we went to recover the tech in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, that's enough reason to take them out ASAP before they do something even more annoying at a very important point in time.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
Saint can certainly claim that he never agreed to any truce and it doesn't apply to him, but Saint's opinion of the truce isn't the one that matters here. It's the broader cape society and institutions such as the PRT that need to be convinced that his breaking the truce doesn't matter.
If Saint is going to claim the truce doesn't apply to him and then go into people's backyard and mess with their stuff during an endbringer attack, what's to stop other people from doing the same? To kinda hit things on the nose, what villain would choose to participate if suddenly he has to worry about the police (because remember, Saint's argument is that he's not a cape and thus not covered by the truce) moving in on their operations while they're gone? Given that, I find it difficult to believe that people will care about whatever excuses Saint chooses to make.
That being said, it is very much in our interests to stay and spring the trap ourselves. That makes it a lot easier to press our case against Saint if for whatever reason he takes the bait but we fail to capture him. Having video of him attacking us is much more convincing evidence and we can further sway public/institutional opinion against Saint by going on about how we really want to help vs the endbringers but we just can't what with the threat of Saint fucking with us while we're gone.
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- Location
- Ekaterinburg, Russia
The fuck it doesn't.
I don't fucking care what Saint and any other arsehole might think about "oh, I'm not a parahuman, so the Endbringer Truce doesn't apply to me". It has a different nature to other parahuman-related conventions.
Birdcage exists to imprison parahumans. It only applies to parahumans.
Unwritten rules (no unmasking) exist to prevent parahumans from escalating against other parahumans. They only apply to parahumans breaking them.
Kill order payouts are provided for killing specific parahumans. It's entirely canon that even a Birdcage candidate (Hookwolf) can kill a member of S9, waltz with their head to the local PRT base, get their money, and leave unmolested. It's not about who killed those parahumans - it is about the fact those kill-ordered parahumans were killed.
Endbringer Truce exists to protect the parahumans that go to Endbringer fights. It's entirely canon that even prisoners will be released if they volunteer, no matter who imprisoned them. This, too, is not about who harms those parahumans - it is about the fact that Endbringer Battle Volunteers were targeted in their absence.
I don't fucking care what Saint and any other arsehole might think about "oh, I'm not a parahuman, so the Endbringer Truce doesn't apply to me". It has a different nature to other parahuman-related conventions.
Birdcage exists to imprison parahumans. It only applies to parahumans.
Unwritten rules (no unmasking) exist to prevent parahumans from escalating against other parahumans. They only apply to parahumans breaking them.
Kill order payouts are provided for killing specific parahumans. It's entirely canon that even a Birdcage candidate (Hookwolf) can kill a member of S9, waltz with their head to the local PRT base, get their money, and leave unmolested. It's not about who killed those parahumans - it is about the fact those kill-ordered parahumans were killed.
Endbringer Truce exists to protect the parahumans that go to Endbringer fights. It's entirely canon that even prisoners will be released if they volunteer, no matter who imprisoned them. This, too, is not about who harms those parahumans - it is about the fact that Endbringer Battle Volunteers were targeted in their absence.
I believe, similarly, that it ought to be it does not matter who attacked a volunteer to an Endbringer Battle - it's the fact such a volunteer was attacked at all that matters.
- Location
- England
Ok, guys. I think the discussion about the Truce has gone on long enough. It's pretty apparent that Saint is basically a delusional maniac who doesn't give a shit about the truce or anything to do with it.
So, lets look at this from a rewards basis.
1 - We can go to the Behemoth fight.
Rewards - Two Spells, Knowledge on how Behemoth interacts with Magic, Potential good will with the PRT/Protectorate if we don't fuck up somehow.
Downsides - There is a pretty good chance that WE/SAMANTHA/DANNY WILL DIE! GAME OVER, Chance of our magic being used to hurt other Hero's if it interacts badly, Letting Saint do whatever the fuck he wants.
2 - We can ambush Saint.
Rewards - Chance of capturing/killing Saint + Accomplices, figuring out how the FUCK he managed to teach someone how to learn magic so quickly, stopping him from slinking away to have said person learn more and better magic, stopping Saint's future plans (He knows about the TSAB, since Dragon was in on that call and I can only IMAGINE the clusterfuck he will turn that into if we let him go about doing what he wants.), good will with Dragon.
Downsides - We might die (much, much lower chance than fighting Behemoth), people would be a little pissed at us for skipping an Endbringer fight (Though, it is in NO way mandatory to attend these, and it might be somewhat expected we skip after the shitshow that was last time?).
To me, it seems pretty clear what we need to do. We CANT let Saint keep running around like he is, doing god knows what with Magic, even if we cant kill/beat him we should have a pretty good chance of at least ganking the Mage if we do this right. Just imagine what would happen if Saint decided it would be in his best interest to say to us/Dragon "Do as we say or we tell everyone about the TSAB". He probably has recordings (almost certainly) of the call and the various other things he knows about Dragon.
Imagine what would happen if the TSAB arrives and Saint thinks "END OF THE WORLD APPROACHING, MUST SAVE HUMANITY, FIRE THE NUKES"
In doing this we do risk Dragon getting Deleted, but we don't know that in-character and to be honest, considering the spells we know (Ragnarok) I'd think that Taylor would be slightly more than eager to make sure that Saint never reaches a point where he is capable of casting anything near what she can.
Also, just a pointed note to @SilentlyWatches, don't you thinks it's at least a little cheesy to have Saint manage to figure out how to have someone learn magic and find someone who is capable of doing so in what... A couple of weeks?
Regardless of the fact that he has a book telling them how to do so? If it was that easy them the TSAB would be swimming in good mages, instead they have a lot of mediocre-okay mages
How did he even find this mystery mage? Did he just happen to have one on hand? Or one of his Teammates were possible mages? Because that just stinks of "Oh, this guy/girl learned magic because it's convenient to the plot to have an enemy that can do so"
So, lets look at this from a rewards basis.
1 - We can go to the Behemoth fight.
Rewards - Two Spells, Knowledge on how Behemoth interacts with Magic, Potential good will with the PRT/Protectorate if we don't fuck up somehow.
Downsides - There is a pretty good chance that WE/SAMANTHA/DANNY WILL DIE! GAME OVER, Chance of our magic being used to hurt other Hero's if it interacts badly, Letting Saint do whatever the fuck he wants.
2 - We can ambush Saint.
Rewards - Chance of capturing/killing Saint + Accomplices, figuring out how the FUCK he managed to teach someone how to learn magic so quickly, stopping him from slinking away to have said person learn more and better magic, stopping Saint's future plans (He knows about the TSAB, since Dragon was in on that call and I can only IMAGINE the clusterfuck he will turn that into if we let him go about doing what he wants.), good will with Dragon.
Downsides - We might die (much, much lower chance than fighting Behemoth), people would be a little pissed at us for skipping an Endbringer fight (Though, it is in NO way mandatory to attend these, and it might be somewhat expected we skip after the shitshow that was last time?).
To me, it seems pretty clear what we need to do. We CANT let Saint keep running around like he is, doing god knows what with Magic, even if we cant kill/beat him we should have a pretty good chance of at least ganking the Mage if we do this right. Just imagine what would happen if Saint decided it would be in his best interest to say to us/Dragon "Do as we say or we tell everyone about the TSAB". He probably has recordings (almost certainly) of the call and the various other things he knows about Dragon.
Imagine what would happen if the TSAB arrives and Saint thinks "END OF THE WORLD APPROACHING, MUST SAVE HUMANITY, FIRE THE NUKES"
In doing this we do risk Dragon getting Deleted, but we don't know that in-character and to be honest, considering the spells we know (Ragnarok) I'd think that Taylor would be slightly more than eager to make sure that Saint never reaches a point where he is capable of casting anything near what she can.
Also, just a pointed note to @SilentlyWatches, don't you thinks it's at least a little cheesy to have Saint manage to figure out how to have someone learn magic and find someone who is capable of doing so in what... A couple of weeks?
Regardless of the fact that he has a book telling them how to do so? If it was that easy them the TSAB would be swimming in good mages, instead they have a lot of mediocre-okay mages
How did he even find this mystery mage? Did he just happen to have one on hand? Or one of his Teammates were possible mages? Because that just stinks of "Oh, this guy/girl learned magic because it's convenient to the plot to have an enemy that can do so"
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Silently Watches
Professional Stalker
- Location
- Right behind you
I'm going to cut in to the Truce thing right now and declare it a moot, pointless argument for the following simple reason:
You can't prove he was there if you don't stay.
You can't put up cameras. You can't call up the Privateers to watch it for you. You can't create hybrid votes to try to cover all your bases. I'm so tired and frustrated with watching this back and forth that I'm putting my foot down right now. You either go to the Endbringer fight or you deal with the warehouse. Pick ONE or the OTHER.
You can't prove he was there if you don't stay.
You can't put up cameras. You can't call up the Privateers to watch it for you. You can't create hybrid votes to try to cover all your bases. I'm so tired and frustrated with watching this back and forth that I'm putting my foot down right now. You either go to the Endbringer fight or you deal with the warehouse. Pick ONE or the OTHER.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
In-universe justification: Dragonslayers have sophisticated and powerful/tinkerbullshit ECM which ought to completely nosells whatever mundane recording devices Taylor set up. We didn't devote any workshop time to making magic-derived surveillance tech, which means that the only way to capture Saint on video is to be present with Perfect Storm.
- Location
- England
Well, since it's been mentioned.
My vote will go towards
Stay at the warehouse – You could say you trust the Dragonslayers not to go after the radio while you're in Ukraine, but that would be a massive lie. You'd bet money they're headed this way. Time to catch a rat.
And
Come with you
The first can be justified in a multitude of different ways and the second can be justified by Taylor being a Teenager and being silly/angsty, but I think it's worth the risk to get the Dragonslayers out of the way. (I also kinda want Danny to die because I feel like it would be good Character Development for Taylor to have something like this blow up in her face. Also I don't really like Danny and would love to see where the story would go if he died.)
My vote will go towards
Stay at the warehouse – You could say you trust the Dragonslayers not to go after the radio while you're in Ukraine, but that would be a massive lie. You'd bet money they're headed this way. Time to catch a rat.
And
Come with you
The first can be justified in a multitude of different ways and the second can be justified by Taylor being a Teenager and being silly/angsty, but I think it's worth the risk to get the Dragonslayers out of the way. (I also kinda want Danny to die because I feel like it would be good Character Development for Taylor to have something like this blow up in her face. Also I don't really like Danny and would love to see where the story would go if he died.)
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Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
To the extent we players know, they do not possess such equipment, Taylor does not have any surveillance devices herself, and the QM has laid down the law on the timeframe. That you're attempting to justify that mundane surveillance equipment would somehow work, or that Taylor has them at all, reeks of getting the last word in.
If that was not your intention, then you've massively misunderstood the finality and obviousness of SilentlyWatches ruling.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
Dude, chill. I'm agreeing with and bolstering the QM edict by providing plausible in-universe justification. Saying that it doesn't even matter if Taylor set up recording equipment because Saint could reasonably bring tinkerbullshit ECM is, like, the exact opposite of what you think I said.
If we're staying at the warehouse, is Taylor just watching them or is she confronting them? If we're confronting them, can Taylor scan them and the mechs? I want to try a Oni-Lee style assault, attacking weak points for maximum damage.
Also, does Vista extend the range of Taylor's spell?
Also, does Vista extend the range of Taylor's spell?
- Location
- Denmark
i was under the impression that the endbringer truce was a little more then just "respecting cape culture" considering it also prevents governments from capitalizing on endbringer attacks and violations has started a war
and you think guys fighting in tinker tech combat vehicles are treated like normal civilians?
but I agree that Saint walking into an empty warehouse isn't going to start a war on its own.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
And if we didn't already have explanations from the QM that contradicted what you tried to slip in, you might have a point there.
But you don't. Additionally your wording was very explicit and specific. Let me walk you through it:
1. Dragonslayers have Thing A.
1. Thing A does Action A.
2. Taylor did Action B with Thing B, which is negated by Thing A and Action A.
At no point is there any of the ambiguity you're now trying to set up, nor is there any sort of proof the Dragonslayers actually possess that kind of asset. So why don't you put this pointless line of discussion to bed while you're behind?
- Location
- England
GUYS
DROP IT
The Author has already stated this argument is meaningless.
And yes, Vista's powers have been shown to work on her spells perfectly.
DROP IT
The Author has already stated this argument is meaningless.
Stop making justifications and shit. Pick ONE or the OTHER.
I don't think a Device has shown that function in the past. It's more likely that the most effective method would be to have Taylor move into her dimension, charge up a strong attack while Sam wait outside and when they show up have Sam try to maneuver them into position and have Taylor drop the dimension when she's behind them and demolish them.
And yes, Vista's powers have been shown to work on her spells perfectly.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
@Always Late - you are reading intent that isn't there. I suggest you take a break to cool off and stop trying to escalate things.
RoninSword
Sky God
- Location
- Canada
Any scans would be gibberish to us since we aren't a tinker. And it likely would take time, time that wouldn't be dedicated to assaulting them.
And yes, Taylor would be attempted to fight them. Since the warehouse is empty, the only reason to lure them out like this is to attack them.