@Alivaril, I understand that Ais would get huge boosts from her ability, but isn't that a bit much even for that? his seems close to 100% of the bonus of the student (who is at a lower level and can thus likely gain experience faster), and if it didn't also scale at least a little with the improving levels of the student, it might encourage frequent switching of students to lower level students with the highest level of growth, which I don't think Dreamer wanted. It might also encourage teaching a few select students a little bit and then getting all the bonuses for everything else they learn, which again, I don't think is what Dreamer wanted (giving the right skill is hard... right?).

Wouldn't it make more sense for the skill to give bonuses either when the student uses what Ais taught them, or when Ais is nearby? That would encourage/force Ais to actually be a teacher instead of teaching a bit, then leaving except for rare advice while still getting all the benefits (ie make her a kakashi, or not serve as enough of a detriment to her going on long excursions without her students since she would get he benefits anyway...).

Also, why is Ais getting the bonuses from Dreamer? She only is teaching QA (as least as far as she knows. She never acknowledged Dreamer as a student, nor taught her anything related to magic before the curse was unleashed). Why is Ais getting Dreamer's bonuses? And also why does she seem to be getting the bonus from Soul Duality? How do those abilities stack?
 
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As I see it, the concepts of shards are determined by what they do, not vice versa like gods.
In this, their limits are really what they can plausibly excuse as a justified application. Creatively interpreting your Concept to include new interests is just part of being a shard.
I don't think that it is really plausibly excuse so much as a methodology and way of looking at the world.

Queen Administrator views everything as lower order things being organized by higher order things. She views problems as things that can be solved by better organization. It makes alot of sense that she picked a host so obviously being failed by the organization she was part of.

Escalation goto solution to all problems is doing more of the same thing, but more. There is a reason QA thinks it is an idiot.

Queen Shaper views everything as matter structured into form. Forms that can be reshaped which tends to be her goto methodology.

Harvest copies and collects the work of others.

Queen Objective sees everything in terms of goals and different paths to said goals.

So a Concept doesn't really tell anything about a shard's powers or limits, but their modus operandi.

Really sort of wish QA was the one fixing heaven's obvious issues. It seems like a problem so well suited to her.
 
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no she's still choosing by her old means. the best <Hosts> are the ones that don't break
Well that is one fairly reliable way to separate diamonds from garbage; crush the lot, or find some that has already been crushed, and look for the bits that survived crushing.

@Alivaril, I understand that Ais would get huge boosts from her ability, but isn't that a bit much even for that? his seems close to 100% of the bonus of the student (who is at a lower level and can thus likely gain experience faster), and if it didn't also scale at least a little with the improving levels of the student, it might encourage frequent switching of students to lower level students with the highest level of growth, which I don't think Dreamer wanted. It might also encourage teaching a few select students a little bit and then getting all the bonuses for everything else they learn, which again, I don't think is what Dreamer wanted (giving the right skill is hard... right?).

Wouldn't it make more sense for the skill to give bonuses either when the student uses what Ais taught them, or when Ais is nearby? That would encourage/force Ais to actually be a teacher instead of teaching a bit, then leaving except for rare advice while still getting all the benefits (ie make her a kakashi, or not serve as enough of a detriment to her going on long excursions without her students since she would get he benefits anyway...).

Also, why is Ais getting the bonuses from Dreamer? She only is teaching QA (as least as far as she knows. She never acknowledged Dreamer as a student, nor taught her anything related to magic before the curse was unleashed). Why is Ais getting Dreamer's bonuses? And also why does she seem to be getting the bonus from Soul Duality? How do those abilities stack?
Ais' boosts still aren't shit on Bell's growth though, so she's a long way off as broken as she could be.

And if you remember, the Gods truth-seeing ability treated QA introducing herself as Taylor as both a lie and a truth at the same time, which means that the Falna considers QA and Taylor to at least partially both be the same entity (as seen with their names 'overlapping'), so by taking QA as her student Ais also took Taylor as her student without realizing. You can't have one without the other; they are inseparable.
 
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...Huh. That's an interesting interlude. I'm surprised the Dungeon's new Friend got attacked by other Dungeon inhabitants though. I had the impression that Xenos were attacked by other monsters because they were sensed to be not following the Dungeon's will. This Friend was made for the Dungeon's purpose though, so I don't get why she's getting attacked. Also, I'm a little surprised she's humanoid, I was expecting her to be a kitty lol.
 
Ais' boosts still aren't shit on Bell's growth though, so she's a long way off as broken as she could be.

I believe they actually are. She gained 100 bonus in all categories in 1-2 days, with most of the work not even done by her or when she was around.

If you assume it was over 48 hours, that would be 20 days to max out your stats in all categories. Bell leveled up in a month with all maxed stats, but max stats in 20 days is still at his level or better. Considering it takes him a month and a half for the next level (I think?) this is definitely on par with him, without throwing either QA or Ais into actually dangerous situations or pushing themselves for (likely) as many hours as it took Bell.

Also, this still doesn't address the other problems that I mentioned with this skill in terms of incentives, with how it is currently portrayed. Especially if it stacks with multiple students, since she doesn't have to spend much time training them to get the full bonus apparently, it incentives having multiple students, or having a student grow quickly during the initial period then switching to another student as soon as they start to plateau.

I doubt this will come up given the focus of this story, but if the characters (ie: Ais) cared as much about increasing their power as they do canonically, they would try to munchkin it if they could. It's also possible that by the time we actually get far enough in the plot for it to matter, it will be 2021, and by that point something else will have happened that might render it moot, but... this still is a potential huge problem right now.
 
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Wait wait wait. Hold up. "Nearly-empty", Lili? You sure? Because I've seen your backpack, and that thing runs solidly on anime logic, and I'm pretty sure that in-universe it relies upon the divine magic of the gods themselves to so much as balance, and that your opinion of the weight is "not too much" no matter what it is. I've seen you lugging that thing into, out of, and all throughout dungeons, and it sure looks like the difference between "nearly empty" and "full to nearly bursting" is precisely zero. Are you sure you don't, I dunno, have a school bus or something forgotten in the corner?
Lilli has a skill specificly for that.
Lili, I'm not sure how to break this to you, but, uh... well adding or removing ears and a tail doesn't really, er, do much, y'know? Especially with the exact same outfit, and one that usually has such features concealed in any case. I'm just saying, it might not have been QA's peerless observational skills that gave you away. But that's okay! Because now your new big sister can help with that... assuming that you can hear her over the sound of all of Orario collectively shrieking in alarm at the prospect.
I think its a race thing I also think she makes herself look younger but the anime sucks at stuff like that. But more specifically if you saw a black guy who lookwd alot lile a white guy you saw a couple time you wouldn't jump to the idea of them being the same.
Added to that, non combat magic is super rare from what I can tell as adventures are the most likely to get magic and they are fighters. The closest to non combat outside Lilli we see is Chloe Lolo at the Benevolent Mistress, with her Pheles Cruz shadow clone bullshit l, to note that the professional assassin has magic less stealth based than Lilli.
Disappointed Bell isn't with Hestia as well.
Yeah, tho honestly Bell is a huge Domino in universe who affects alot of people so all that shit may go bad.( like Lyu)
In canon Xenos(sapient monsters) get attacked but I don't recall if it has been explained why yet. Author probably came up with a reason of his own for this fic.
I think this is because the dungeon doesn't seem to be able to change monsters after they are born.
Also, this still doesn't address the other problems that I mentioned with this skill in terms of incentives, with how it is currently portrayed. Especially if it stacks with multiple students, since she doesn't have to spend much time training them to get the full bonus apparently, it incentives having multiple students, or having a student grow quickly during the initial period then switching to another student as soon as they start to
Skills don't show everything in how their worded. To note Lilli has a skill to up carrying Strenght but it also seems to take care of the fact that she's like half the weight of her bag.
 
I believe they actually are. She gained 100 bonus in all categories in 1-2 days, with most of the work not even done by her or when she was around.
Sure, but keep in mind that one of the things that happened in those 1-2 days was the Ishtar Incident, and Teacher of Heroes has this specific description. "Effect scales with strength of purpose and achievements of students". Given that we know that a significant amount of QA\Taylor's growth was from what Taylor did to Ishtar, it stands to reason that a significant amount of Ais' growth was also from what Taylor did to Ishtar, which would imply that the 100+ bonus in ~2 days is probably not going to be sustained.

I would presume that at least half of Ais' growth was from her student's achievements with Ishtar, if not more than that, simply because of the sheer scale of that particular incident. Note that Teacher of Heroes says nothing about how much Ais needs to be involved with nurturing her students, just that she needs to have students and be nurturing them and that the effect can scale upwards.

Also, what do you reckon the odds are that the 'strength of purpose' qualifier for scaling effects triggers on Ais wanting to hug a murderfloof? I'm betting the odds are almost definitely 'yes', and that Ais is getting major double effect scaling as well as extra boosts from 2 level 1 students who are themselves growing at 4x speed due to their own broken skills.


In short; Ais' is stacking several broken as fuck growth boosting effects on top of each other with a pair of students who one-shotted an entire major Familia, and she's still only managed to approximately match Bell's one singular broken growth boosting skill for a brief period of time. (Goddamn Bell is so overpowered, no wonder Freya has a giant raging ladyboner for him.)

I think this is because the dungeon doesn't seem to be able to change monsters after they are born.
The Demi-Spirits\New Types also attack other dungeon monsters in order to harvest cores to fuel their growth. Unfortunately we don't know enough about the Dungeon and what exactly is going on with them and the Xenos to know why they are hostile with each other unlike 'normal' dungeon monsters, so it is impossible to say what the canon reasons for such are.

What the dungeon is and why it does what it does, along with related mysteries like the Xenos, are the really big unanswered questions of Danmachi. And there's no sign that they will be answered any time soon, despite Bell's decision to catch them all champion the Xenos.
 
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it might encourage frequent switching of students to lower level students with the highest level of growth, which I don't think Dreamer wanted. It might also encourage teaching a few select students a little bit and then getting all the bonuses for everything else they learn, which again, I don't think is what Dreamer wanted (giving the right skill is hard... right?).

Greatly enhances growth of user as they nurture the growth of select others

I wouldn't be surprised if by select others, Dreamer meant Hestia Familia.
 
Disappointed Bell isn't with Hestia as well.
Eh, I think we're going to get him soon, just in a different way (albeit bearing in mind that "soon" is relative, and not much time has actually passed chronologically since the beginning of the story). Queen Administrator and Taylor are with Hestia, but that does not remove Bell from the story, and Freya seems intent on Bell having a significant part in their personal tale. Freya wants Bell to grow, to flourish as vibrantly as possible, and has much the same desire for QA and Taylor as well; as it happens, the path to progress is to overcome difficulty, and thus with sort of two parties involved, the best, simplest solution by Freya's rationale is to pit them against one another. Freya meddles; there's no way that Bell and QA/Taylor will stay uninvolved with one another for long. For that matter, if nothing else, Freya could just see that Bell get word of an amazing teacher of heroes giving instruction or a party of girls with a couple of brand new heroines delving into the dungeon at a particular time, and Bell will have a dust cloud trailing his feet as he dashes off.

I believe they actually are. She gained 100 bonus in all categories in 1-2 days, with most of the work not even done by her or when she was around.

If you assume it was over 48 hours, that would be 20 days to max out your stats in all categories. Bell leveled up in a month with all maxed stats, but max stats in 20 days is still at his level or better. Considering it takes him a month and a half for the next level (I think?) this is definitely on par with him, without throwing either QA or Ais into actually dangerous situations or pushing themselves for (likely) as many hours as it took Bell.

Also, this still doesn't address the other problems that I mentioned with this skill in terms of incentives, with how it is currently portrayed. Especially if it stacks with multiple students, since she doesn't have to spend much time training them to get the full bonus apparently, it incentives having multiple students, or having a student grow quickly during the initial period then switching to another student as soon as they start to plateau.
Indeed. Her Teacher of Heroes skill "scales with strength of purpose and achievements of students", suggesting that she improves relative to improvement of her pupil(s), and right now she is teaching someone who completely outclasses even Bell's patently absurd growth rate... and she might piggyback off of his own rapid growth as well, too, not to mention Lili thrown in as a bonus even without any shenanigans by Taylor. So, then, what might she gain from multiple, rapidly-growing students all taught concurrently while also pushing herself as well? Or with Freya taking a shine to her as well and pushing her all the more? Bell is good, yes, but he's not better than, well, himself, really, so I think Aiz is going to prove quite the difficult goal to surpass... especially since that can itself make the goal all the farther away.

Lilli has a skill specificly for that.
Yeah, she is not what I consider a reliable judge on that front. "Nearly empty", is it? By what metric? Comparative or by flat measurement? Oh, there's only a few crap-tonnes of stuff in there, no big deal. Eh? What do you mean by "unrealistic perspective"?

I think its a race thing I also think she makes herself look younger but the anime sucks at stuff like that. But more specifically if you saw a black guy who lookwd alot lile a white guy you saw a couple time you wouldn't jump to the idea of them being the same.
Eh, on the one hand, anime is anime; on the other... well the other people "disguised" at least did something about their outfits. The exact same getup that is itself pretty concealing of the actual person wearing it is perhaps not the best disguise to wear, especially around people who might not bother checking their targets too closely anyway. Even if she doesn't want to change her apparel... well why not just change its appearance too?

Added to that, non combat magic is super rare from what I can tell as adventures are the most likely to get magic and they are fighters. The closest to non combat outside Lilli we see is Chloe Lolo at the Benevolent Mistress, with her Pheles Cruz shadow clone bullshit l, to note that the professional assassin has magic less stealth based than Lilli.
It's an intriguing topic, certainly. Said professional assassin has magic that is arguably less useful for such ends than Lili's own... so what might she be able to pull off? The magic is as much physical transformation as it is illusion, granting Lili the characteristics of her form where mundane in origin, so I wonder just what the future will have in store once she gets to brainstorming its uses with QA and Taylor. Superior senses alone are handy, but hey, who knows, with development from leveling up, maybe she'll be able to use it to effectively heal herself or turn clothing into instant armour, or the like. It's an ability that lends very well to creativity.
 
So, wait, hang on. White skin, blue crystal scales.

Isn't that Wiene? Because it kind of sounds like Wiene. I think that's even around about the right floor for her to spawn on too, though early.

How sure are we about that monster girl being an OC?
 
Keep in mind that the current description for "Teacher of Heroes" is actually a minor mistranslation. And, well, Aiz wouldn't really enjoy min/maxing her own skill, so that's a big flaw right there. :p

Chiron: Dramatically enhances magnitude of user's growth when they nurture the growth of another. Effects scale with both the user's desire to teach and the achievements of students. Most effective if a chosen pupil was at level 1 when nurturing began.
 
Keep in mind that the current description for "Teacher of Heroes" is actually a minor mistranslation. And, well, Aiz wouldn't really enjoy min/maxing her own skill, so that's a big flaw right there. :p

So... How does that equate to Ais's magic going up the most? she didn't do any magic training on screen at all. How is it boosting her own rate of growth if she isn't doing anything to grow that stat?
 
So... How does that equate to Ais's magic going up the most? she didn't do any magic training on screen at all. How is it boosting her own rate of growth if she isn't doing anything to grow that stat?

I don't really answer this sort of question for this fic, sorry. I just saw that people were speculating based on Loki's translation instead of the exact effect and acted to help a little.

How sure are we about that monster girl being an OC?
*cough* so uh
this is totally awkward since I thought she had grey skin
so yeah, it's an OC.
 
Sure, but keep in mind that one of the things that happened in those 1-2 days was the Ishtar Incident, and Teacher of Heroes has this specific description. "Effect scales with strength of purpose and achievements of students". Given that we know that a significant amount of QA\Taylor's growth was from what Taylor did to Ishtar, it stands to reason that a significant amount of Ais' growth was also from what Taylor did to Ishtar, which would imply that the 100+ bonus in ~2 days is probably not going to be sustained.

I would presume that at least half of Ais' growth was from her student's achievements with Ishtar, if not more than that, simply because of the sheer scale of that particular incident. Note that Teacher of Heroes says nothing about how much Ais needs to be involved with nurturing her students, just that she needs to have students and be nurturing them and that the effect can scale upwards.

Aye, I'd go so far as to say that Aiz's growth was almost exclusively due to the Ishtar Incident, since the sheer magnitude of that achievement makes everything else look like rounding error.

The Ishtar Familia Curse is easily one the more noteworthy events to occur in Orario's history. It represents the most blatant example of "Spirit" meddling since the Crozzo Curse, and utterly devastated one of the more powerful Familias in Orario literally overnight. Hestia called it something fit for a cautionary tale, and she wasn't kidding — through that single action, QA and Dreamer created their own legend, and earned a spot in the history books.

And if the Falna is the manifestation of an adventurer's tale, Aiz's skill represents the linking of her legend with that of her chosen student. In the minds of the public and gods, Aiz's name is mentioned right alongside QA when discussing the Fall of Ishtar, despite the seemingly minor role she played.
 
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