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It's not wrong to make Friends in the Dungeon (Danmachi / Sanctioned [Worm])

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It's honestly a bit of an out-of-place argument anyway; no blessed weapons have appeared in this fic to date. Plus, Queen Administrator would strenuously object to the resulting debt.


gagaking said:
semi-random questions.
A) Are the purrs programmed into the friends, or do the Friends actually enjoy being pet?
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. . . Yes.
B) Will any of the Friends be able to sing? Will they be able to sing well? Will they know a lot of songs/tunes? Can they harmonize with themselves (multiple tones at once/concurrent singing)?
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The current ones can't, but future models may be able to. They are unlikely to have preprogrammed songs, though; it's more likely to be closer to birdsong.

C) Do the Friends have independence? Is it possible for them to get hobbies or interests, or are they more like golems?
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They technically have as much free will as any other sentient organism, but they're designed to be happiest carrying out what they were made to do. As such, it is unlikely they will deviate.

D) Have the people of Danmachi found a way to mass produce mauve-colored Dye? This is unimportant but I can't remember the colors of clothing in the show without checking.
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"Mass-produce" is a bit of a strong word, but it shouldn't be in as rare a supply as our equivalent era.

E) Will we ever see the Friends do anything in a dungeon?
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Of course!
F) Will Dreamer ever get the courage to ask if the Norns are separate deities from the Fates?
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Probably.
 
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Meaningful question time: Will QA ever make Friend-making Friends? Like, say, an ant queen? But bee-spiders because adorifying is justice?

dracklor said:
And end up with something worse than Ishtar's curse for their trouble. Although the Fates vetoed crippling a god's Arcanum, I seriously doubt they would let anyone that tried to take their new relaxation zone away off lightly (to say nothing of how Dreamer Taylor might react to Evilius various works).
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The problem with that is that, IIRC, Evilus has nothing like a Falna to directly curse. Dreamer would have to hit them individually. Which granted -- she could, with time. But Evilus mightn't appreciate that fact as is.
 
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JadeKaiser said:
I will note that at no point does it say that the adventurer loses excillia in the process.
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Althero said:
it also uses the user's experience as food.
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... You were saying?

JadeKaiser said:
A weapon's feats are different from the feats of its wielder while using it, after all.
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A killed monster doesn't just suddenly generate twice as much excelia because there's two recipients. What you're describing is that the weapon's status might grow in different stats than its user, but said growth would still need excelia to fuel it. And at least in this story, it's already been established that feats generate little in terms of excelia, their main role is to shape it:
Alivaril said:
Excelia doesn't do anything on its own; if you haven't given it a form to take, it'll dissipate without helping you at all. That includes if you've done nothing more than effortlessly cut down foes. Adventurers need to push their limits if they're going to grow.
[...]
Noteworthy accomplishments and training don't do much in isolation, either; your struggles produce a small amount of usable excelia, but not very much.
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Now, since I doubt Alivaril wants to read pages of discussion about a weapon that might never exist here, some thoughts on how recent events might look from Aiz's perspective...

IIRC, Aiz rarely expresses happiness, doesn't have any friends outside her Famila, and is (or will be) slowly starting to feel desperate because her growth is stagnating.

In comes QA and suddenly,
  • She only wants to observe the adorable murderfloofs, but instead she's allowed to pet them (which elicits a faint smile) and even makes a friend!
  • She only wants to feed the murderfloof, but gets an OP skill that gives her a way out of her stagnation.
  • She's only helping QA with shopping, but once Loki updates her status, she'll probably notice weeks worth of stat progress due to the curse counting towards her pupil's achievements.
Things are really looking upwards for her.


... Ninja'd w.r.t. getting back on topic. That's what I get for taking an hour to reread relevant story posts to verify details before posting.
 
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Alivaril said:
The current ones can't, but future models may be able to. They are unlikely to have preprogrammed songs, though; it's more likely to be closer to birdsong.
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So, will they be able to learn new songs? And will they be able to sing multiple notes at once/concordant singing? It may be birdsong singing, but it will still be singing!

Alivaril said:
They technically have as much free will as any other sentient organism, but they're designed to be happiest carrying out what they were made to do. As such, it is unlikely they will deviate.
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They can follow orders and still have hobbies or interests outside of that. For example, liking certain toys. Is it possible for any of them to independently meet and like someone who passes by, without formal approval from QA? Keeping in mind that an order from QA would overwrite that.

Also, if they don't deviate much, what is the point of holding onto the individual souls for reanimation? How would they be different from new "Friend" souls? Would it only be memories of previous orders?

Also, I think Dreamer or Hestia would want at least the Friends loaned out to others to show more personality, to make it less obvious they are created creatures vs. natural ones. And pets with personalities might also cheer the people up more (act more like companions rather than mere tools).
 
Kind of hope for more misunderstandings with Aiz and QA it amuses me.
A comedy of errors.
 
Nachtigall said:
Considering that the magic stones would probably allow them to cast spells, I suspect the first pre-recorded 'songs' are going to be magic chants with added melodies...
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What I'm looking forward to is QA/Dreamer realizing that monsters can probably do potion alchemy internally. Splash healing potions vomit or healing venomous bites on demand, while anyone who witnesses it just eye twitching at them "That's just wrong" with Hestia in the Background just being all:

 
So uh, head up.

I asked around for the official copy and they gave me this quote about the knife.

Listen up, Hestia, this is important.

This knife has your hieroglyphs, your blessing. This weapon is alive.

It is the same as a child who received Falna. The weapon will grow stronger using the wielder's excelia along with him.

If the wielder gets stronger, so will it. As an adventurer gets stronger, he will unlock more and more of this blade's potential.

Right now, this weapon is about as powerful as tissue paper. However, it will take its first breath when it reaches the boy ell Cranel's hands and grow from there.
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Compare that to my fan translated book which was

"This dagger because of your engraved sacred text also has its own status. In other words, this weapon could also be considered as alive."
After Hephaestus had finished forging the mithril into the blade, Hephaestus added Status to it. This was the current <Hestia's Dagger>.
What was engraved closely on the black blade was Sacred Text.
"Which also means that, just like the child that was granted God's Grace, it also uses the user's experience as food. Once there is sufficient experience, this weapon will also evolve."
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Anyway this better put the whole debacle to end.
 
Althero said:
Anyway this better put the whole debacle to end.
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I agree. However, I think it has brought to light another, different misunderstanding about how Danmachi stat gains and level ups work, which should be addressed. Thankfully, it shouldn't take long.
Nachtigall said:
A killed monster doesn't just suddenly generate twice as much excelia because there's two recipients. What you're describing is that the weapon's status might grow in different stats than its user, but said growth would still need excelia to fuel it. And at least in this story, it's already been established that feats generate little in terms of excelia, their main role is to shape it:
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A killed monster doesn't generate any excillia at all. Excillia is not generated by killing things. Excillia is generated by accomplishing things. When an adventurer kills a monster, they don't get X amount of excillia split between the party for the death of the monster. They get an undefined amount of excillia based on the accomplishment of "having killed a monster" based on how hard it was for them to do so. This can be extended to anything, not just killing monsters, and is relative to the person accomplishing them. One character in the Loki familia is notable for having levelled up by passing a written exam they were struggling with in the time before they came to Orario.

Excillia is not XP.
 
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JadeKaiser said:
I agree. However, I think it has brought to light another, different misunderstanding about how Danmachi stat gains and level ups work, which should be addressed. Thankfully, it shouldn't take long.

A killed monster doesn't generate any excillia at all. Excillia is not generated by killing things. Excillia is generated by accomplishing things. This can be anything, and is relative to the person accomplishing them. One character in the Loki familia is notable for having levelled up by passing a written exam they were struggling with in the time before they came to Orario.

Excillia is not XP.
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Nah, Excillia is absolutely XP. It's that Orario isn't a combat jRPG.
 
Logos01 said:
Nah, Excillia is absolutely XP. It's that Orario isn't a combat jRPG.
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Well yes, but it's easier to just say that it's not XP, because it doesn't work the way that XP works in games. It's more like if someone sat down and went, "okay, if we remove the game mechanics and computer algorithms, how would XP really work in a system like this as an actual thing?"

EDIT: Which is pretty obviously what the author actually did, of course.
 
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JadeKaiser said:
Well yes, but it's easier to just say that it's not XP.
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Easier, maybe. Remotely accurate? Not even slightly.

Anyone with a passing familiarity with RPGs as a whole recognizes the mechanism, and it's fairly clear: do things that matter, get XP. XP Can be spent on things but not by the character. Skills, Attributes, etc -- all gained via spending XP.

Leveling up however only occurs from completing a sufficiently important quest, once you've acquired a sufficient minimum amount of XP. Of course, "sufficiently important" is entirely subjective. (Literally: you Level Up by impressing the gods. Not by accruing Excillia. But you have to have a sufficient amount of it. This is remarkably similar to how leveling up used to work in D&D, when you had to have the requisite XP and then receive special training from someone sufficiently higher in level.)

Just because something's easier to say doesn't mean it's remotely correct to say it.

JadeKaiser said:
because it doesn't work the way that XP works in games.
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You've obviously never played any White Wolf games, because the similarity is staggering.
 
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JadeKaiser said:
Worth derailing the thread over (again)?

Absolutely not.
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That much I'll agree to. But you were the one who made the statement that I was disagreeing with.

As an aside: check out the game "Exalted" sometime to see an XP system that could essentially be 100% dropped in-place in Danmachi with no changes to how the XP rules worked. (You'd need to change some gameplay mechanics, but not the XP system.)
 
XP being combat-only is restricted to a particular subset of digital RPGs -- I don't know any tabletop game that had XP as combat-only, and plenty of videogames have XP from quest completion or other non-combat actions, in addition to or instead of combat.
 
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Omake: A Conversation Between Two Extraordinary Rookies
  • Apocrypha
    • ((And now for something completely different.))

    A Conversation Between Two Extraordinary Rookies

    "So... Why did you ask to speak with me privately, Queen Administrator? Have you reconsidered Goddess Freya's offer to join her Familia?"

    "No. As mentioned previously, I am happy with Hestia. I do not believe joining Freya's Familia would suit my emotional needs."

    "B-but! Goddess Freya really does care for you! She's always spoken up for you at the gods' gatherings, hasn't she? And our Familia is really big, and can help you grow a lot more, and, and I know you don't want to leave Hestia, but you don't know how much Goddess Freya always talks about you, and smiles when she hears news about you, and-"

    "And occasionally sends monsters to kill me?"

    "Urk! Well... uh... umm... Goddess Freya would certainly, um... never... uh... do something like that?"

    "Bell Cranel of Freya. Your complete incompetency at deception is apparent."

    "... ... ... I'm sorry! I'm really, really sorry! But Goddess Freya means you well, honest! She's never tried to kill you for real, she just wants to help you grow stronger! It's like how Ottar helps train me! At first, it was really really scary when Ottar kept beating me up and throwing me into the Dungeon, but then Goddess Freya explained it's because of how much faith she and Ottar have in me. I'm Ottar's Squire now, and I'm going to be one of Goddess Freya's knights in the future! As one of Goddess Freya's future knights, it's a sign of her care and trust in me when she puts me in dangerous situations, because she knows I'll triumph and grow stronger each time!

    And potions fix almost everything afterwards anyway, so it's not like there's any real harm done. So please, don't think the goddess means you any ill will, Queen Administrator! She really, really just wants to help you, and I'm sure she'd help you even more once you joined her Familia! I've grown so much under her and Ottar's training, I'm sure you'd grow even more!"

    "...I am pleasantly surprised at your enlightened view of conflict. This makes me think better of your goddess. However, I repeat that I am very happy with Hestia and do not wish to leave her. I called you here to confirm if your goddess was truly responsible. Since she is, I would like you to repeat this message to her. Ahem. Beginning message. 'Your courting gifts of conflict and data are much appreciated. They are suitable tributes for me to favourably consider an alliance with you. However, your gifts cause much distress to Hestia, which I do not appreciate. Should you wish to continue sending such gifts, please wait until I am alone with my Friends in order to prevent further distress to Hestia. I will attempt to more often go to isolated locations with my Friends in order to facilitate this.' End message. Do you recall and understand the message you are to give to your goddess, Bell Cranel of Freya?"

    "Yes! Thank you Queen Administrator! I'm sure the goddess will be happy to hear your words. I'm so glad you understand the goddess doesn't mean anything bad when she arranges dangerous situations for you. If you really plan to go off alone to help the goddess' plans, I'll join in next time, okay? I think I'm nearly as strong as you now, so I should be a good enough challenge, at least along with the goddess' help. I think Goddess Freya was already considering having us fight at some point so we would both grow... I look forward to fighting you next time, Queen Administrator!"

    "The same to you. Once again, I appreciate your enlightened view of conflict, Bell Cranel of Freya."
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • curiosity said:
    Out of curiosity, can QA make a weapon Friend (regardless of whether it is practical)?
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    Do you mean equipment? Maybe a compatible symbiote?

    I am fairly sure that QA could make say a Friend that lives on her body and acts like armor, but I am not sure that it would be better protection than giving those same resources to a blacksmith and having them make armor.
     
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    gagaking said:
    Also, if they don't deviate much, what is the point of holding onto the individual souls for reanimation? How would they be different from new "Friend" souls? Would it only be memories of previous orders?
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    They learn, you know.
    fictionfan said:
    I am fairly sure that QA could make say a Friend that lives on her body and acts like armor, but I am not sure that it would be better protection than giving those same resources to a blacksmith and having them make armor.
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    It would be better because it would be upgradeable.
     
    curiosity said:
    Yes, because you don't have to pay the full cost each time.
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    Depends on how much upgrading costs. Animal armor has a bunch of extra needs beyond acting as armor. Need to eat, digest able to improve itself general keeping itself alive that might make getting whole new armor more cost effective. Especially when you already need to feed the cats.
     
    fictionfan said:
    Depends on how much upgrading costs. Animal armor has a bunch of extra needs beyond acting as armor. Need to eat, digest able to improve itself general keeping itself alive that might make getting whole new armor more cost effective. Especially when you already need to feed the cats.
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    They only need Cores to improve, they can subsist on sunlight:
    Alivaril said:
    After they're completed, they should sleep on the ground floor instead of in the basement with us; sunbathing will greatly alleviate their need for supplementary nutrition. Eating monsters will account for most or all of the rest.
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    Alivaril said:
    The nameless girl had been able to sneak in enough stolen spare magic rocks to ensure their new Friends required very little rest or external energy input, were the closest thing to unkillable, and were large enough to comfortably ride on.
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    So at some point the armor will stop needing to eat Cores. And it will improve from every single one in the meantime.
    Torgamous said:
    Are you familiar with Soulcalibur?
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    I am not.

    edit: Added citation.
     
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