It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

[Edifier]

Letting us use other peoples' powers or them use ours is something that explicitly needs to be learned when using a Major Relations slot, I doubt a Minor slot is good enough to do so casually.

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This isn't about us using Myah's power. It's about allowing Sympethic Linkage to pigipack Myah's use of her powers.
The power combination may even work without minor relations. Since they're both essences and she could feel and detect the link formed and use it.

 

[sheep-dodger]

Myah is a Lvl 4 Ethos-wielder, I doubt she has the capacity or finesse to handle the number of connections we can establish and hold at the same time, much less supply the Essence needed to apply her effect to everyone in our Essence-network. I don't think we've seen someone use someone else's Essence-links before either. Maybe it's possible, but that's far from a given and we'd want to use Lilly's Essence channeling abilities to apply the effect to an appreciable number of people in the first place.

 

[darknessworld]

Myah is a Lvl 4 Ethos-wielder, I doubt she has the capacity or finesse to handle the number of connections we can establish and hold at the same time, much less supply the Essence needed to apply her effect to everyone in our Essence-network. I don't think we've seen someone use someone else's Essence-links before either. Maybe it's possible, but that's far from a given and we'd want to use Lilly's Essence channeling abilities to apply the effect to an appreciable number of people in the first place.

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So what, you don't even want to give her the chance to help because you think it obviously wouldn't work?

 

[Alectai]

Back from my shift, and just saying again.

Fuck Aboleath

Seriously, he couldn't have ruined our long term plans better in defeat if he tried.

It does seem like he's definitely a Maw Sublet of some stripe though, probably a subordinate of Colossi.

 

[Zaealix]

So what, you don't even want to give her the chance to help because you think it obviously wouldn't work?

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I dunno about that first post but it occurs to me Lily hasn't REALLY gotten much of, if any real training in Essence-she's been about entirely self-taught, as far as I can tell. This...Strikes me as potentially massive in terms of what Lily and Myah or any other Essence Wielder could do once we have time to compare tips and tricks, assuming Ethos work like that as opposed to thinking it does because we have multiple Ethos giving us multiple perspectives on the same phenomenon.

 

[Silverking]

But while Lilly needs to grow and grow fast I'm less sure gorging on the dungeon is a better option versus sharing the exp pie with others given the benefits of soft power and not having all the eggs in one basket. Yes Lilly is super powerful. But uh, only 1 person, two with Petal. Having more powerful combatants is useful for say keeping all the non combatants we care about alive from dangerous minions while Lilly is duking it out with something terrible.

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Here's the issue: As of this moment, the ONLY combatant that we know for certain is on Team Lilly is Captain Martin. Everyone else in the Watch, including his strike team, is loyal to Captain Martin to the degree that they trust him to do what's best the town of Harmuph. I don't think he's had the conversation of "this girl is worth ending our careers and abandoning our former lives for" with anyone else at at this time. Unless and until we got people who are willing to to "ride or die" with us, there's not a lot of candidates to "share" the boons with.

Myah is a Lvl 4 Ethos-wielder, I doubt she has the capacity or finesse to handle the number of connections we can establish and hold at the same time, much less supply the Essence needed to apply her effect to everyone in our Essence-network.

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...Technically, Lilly was only at Level 3 with [Dream within a Forest] when she made the Essence Network for the ride back south. Now, if we could apply Myah's boosting to Lilly's connections (with Lilly footing the essence bill), that could be very useful, but until we get a better idea of how Myah's power actually works, it's mostly speculation at this point.

 

[Kymecho]

I think it's interesting that Lilly's parents are never even a consideration for Captain Martin-this is someone used to throwing his weight around to the extent that he can.

He takes pride in being able to protect his men, acknowledges the risks of his actions, and has an aspiration of being remembered, with land and influence in a kingdom of Lilly's creation.

The hard part is telling if it's professional pride, or actual "father to his men" pride. Talking to the dead guy Tovak shows he has some regard for their deaths, and he can be polite to Yola, a woman working under him (his intentions for not saying Tovak was into her are questionable, though.)

Clearly, his goals show his actions are primarily rooted in self-interest. He wouldn't have stuck his neck out for Lilly a year ago, and he was going to let Lilly get taken by Lord Waters, if she hadn't reminded him of the other boy who got Tithed. Obviously, self-preservation plays its role in his decision-making.
Let's be glad he wasn't using {Lion's Paw} in the Waters confrontation. Or was he, and his neuroses just go that deep?

It does seem as though he's come around pretty quick on betraying the kingdom he's undoubtedly sworn to obey (having a dead wife and distant daughter probably help, he doesn't think of them once here), and just stuffs that down by telling himself "I only get one shot, this opportunity comes once in a lifetime". {The Ladder} says its because knowing Lilly is righteous does the trick there, but he only tells himself it's "icing on the cake."

The worse parts of him are angling to possibly marry Lilly, which could be a holdover of "that's how they roll in Narisell, you try to marry the highest power/status person you can, regardless of age or other factors." He also shows no real regard for all the lives the Watch undoubtedly saved with Lilly's help. Not standing on his laurels, maybe? Or so used to pushing off death that it doesn't matter to him?

All in all, a pretty mercenary attitude, with maybe a toehold toward being good. My guess is focusing on weighing out risk vs. reward is how he's survived this long, seeing as his Dungeon knowledge implies experience there, or contact with people who have beaten Dungeons.

What is so important in the east that Lord Waters would ignore the Dungeon to take Lilly with him to accomplish? Is Waters and his entourage tough enough to just disregard it? But then they could have just beaten those 17 Watch members and taken Lilly. Ugh, so many questions.

Edit: Risk-taking behavior is in his nature enough that I think there was mention of a roll for pushing to clear the [Rapid Iterator] after Heartbreak. He's ambitious, clearly.

 

[Storyteller]

there's not a lot of candidates to "share" the boons with.

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Excellent points. You're right. Without Evie level "share the wealth" shenanigans there isn't. Which honestly if we could manage it I would consider with Yolun, Myah or (less certain of the use) Sarah/Liatris. Zach would also be on the list here but he's not going to have his Ethos in time. Note said shenanigans would be use of connections or slipstream transportation or other some such so not part of the battle.

Well, besides the fact that this info is out of character. Admittedly I am the type of person who sees feeding exp/special feats criteria to a support type as an investment even if it's not returned in straight killing potential.

Edit: Myah may legitimately end up as a shenanigan target if we end up with her supporting Lilly from a distance given how Lilly was getting exp from the Guard wolf kills. Much easier said than done though.

 

[sheep-dodger]

So what, you don't even want to give her the chance to help because you think it obviously wouldn't work?

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That is a very uncharitable reading of what I said. I think it won't work, that doesn't mean we shouldn't give it a try at least. We'll want to figure out what [These Bonds I Bear] does anyway and how it can help our group, maybe it will still work because it's Essence. However it'd be weird if one of the main features offered by a Major Relations slot (using each other's Ethos powers, something that's specifically called out as needing some time to train to achieve) could just be shunted off to a Minor Relations slot. What exactly Minor Relations slots can do is very ill-defined, so I'm trying to manage expectations so people don't assume that something we so far have not seen anyone else do (piggybacking different Essence abilities across different people's Essence links) can be done with a Lesser Relations slot when that's something explicitly reserved for a Major Relations slot through Soul Bond.

Technically, Lilly was only at Level 3 with [Dream within a Forest] when she made the Essence Network for the ride back south.

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Lilly's advances and levels really shouldn't be taken as a yard stick for anyone else, her Level 3 is much more similar to what others might have at Level 15, since Lilly gains powers much more quickly and the Essence mastery provided by [Dream Within The Forest] surpasses a lot of other Ethea. Myah would currently have one or two subpowers to [These Bonds I Bear] and presumably her Grasp is also in the shitter since I doubt she got to explore it a lot.

What is so important in the east that Lord Waters would ignore the Dungeon to take Lilly with him to accomplish?

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Maybe Abby wasn't lying about the Goblinoids being busy with some big ritual like that plague that Valerie's brother suffered from? They're to our East and maybe he's riding to help in the defence against them. Maybe they're responsible for the Black Lung (which was after all a magic plague) and Valerie's brother is suffering from it as well.

 

[GlassMask]

There is something to be optimistic about at least for the rest of the chapter. The title is heroine which implies some decent things.

 

[Silverking]

I think it's interesting that Lilly's parents are never even a consideration for Captain Martin-this is someone used to throwing his weight around to the extent that he can.

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Yolun's not going to have a good time, even after he gets shaken out of his Vow trance. From his perspective, he fell unconscious with an arm missing after watching his daughter ride a horse into the wolf-infested woods. He wakes up at the command of a psychopathic girl, and has to stand still and watch as his daughter fight to protect them and his middle son die. He then later finds out that a noble almost kidnapped his daughter and threatened to burn the house down, and Captain Martin has been having conversations with Lilly regarding their family's future, seemingly without any consideration for what he thinks.

His role as head of the household and protector and provider of the family have been dealt really heavy blows recently. At least he can take some comfort that he raised his kids to be able to handle such adversities...sorry, what's that about Zach?

 

[Faraway-R]

However it'd be weird if one of the main features offered by a Major Relations slot (using each other's Ethos powers, something that's specifically called out as needing some time to train to achieve) could just be shunted off to a Minor Relations slot. What exactly Minor Relations slots can do is very ill-defined, so I'm trying to manage expectations so people don't assume that something we so far have not seen anyone else do (piggybacking different Essence abilities across different people's Essence links) can be done with a Lesser Relations slot when that's something explicitly reserved for a Major Relations slot through Soul Bond

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You are seeing this in a different light from myself.

In the first place, Myah does not get ability to use [Effervescent Animus - Ambrosia of Joy] Ethos from the Minor Link. Secondly, Minor Relations Link is actually well defined by how broadly applicable it is - it's adding a specific exception or clause of our design to how one of Lilly's powers works.

In this case - Myah "counts as Lilly for the purposes of protection provided by the {Hybrid Syphon}". She gets no access to {Subversion} or Evie's other powers.

It can probably give other similar benefits like resistance to Heat, potentially provide our Essence-wielding friends Myah and Kaymie with access to the wellspring of power from {Attuned Locus}, or (as I tried to suggest for dealing with Valerie) extend our own Domain to someone else at range.

 

[sheep-dodger]

"Being broadly applicable" is the opposite of what well-defined is though?
And yeah, they let us do a bunch of hax, but to use Myah's power with our Essence Links is something we haven't seen anyone do so far afaict so is entirely speculative
Maybe it does let Myah piggyback off our Essence Links, but then that still relies on Myah being able to control that many connections and provide the Essence needed for her Ethos to work. I don't think we've tried recharging another Essence user before, and when we drove the wolves south it was specifically mentioned that non-Pithe users were being held in reserve:

With your support, every subgroup of the Watch have utterly annihilated anything in their path even resembling a wolf. Those who cannot draw from Pithe have been held in reserve, savouring their strength for if and when it is required as their brothers in arms have led the charge.

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What I'd expect a Minor Relations slot to be able to do is to let Myah grab and work with as many of Lilly's Essence links as she can usually handle with her Ethos, not the entirety of the Watch at once for example.

 

[Faraway-R]

"Being broadly applicable" is the opposite of what well-defined is though?

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Not necessarily. As an example abstracted from this quest, a superpower to be able to telekinetically control up to one metric ton of matter, with total applicable force equal to double the force Earth gravity would assert on one metric ton of matter is broadly applicable while also being well defined.

 

[sheep-dodger]

Not necessarily. As an example abstracted from this quest, a superpower to be able to telekinetically control up to one metric ton of matter, with total applicable force equal to double the force Earth gravity would assert on one metric ton of matter is broadly applicable while also being well defined.

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sure it can be, but I'd argue that this:

Easy to attach and easy to remove. Minor Relational Links let me ignore some of the usual limits of my powers or extend their benefits to places they normally would not apply (such as other people).

Minor Links are flexible ephemeral tethers that can sometimes be added or removed at the speed of thought, thought more tricky and technical uses require a bit more deliberate attention.

Pragmatically, if I am normally not able to do something because of some minor caveat, Minor Links allow me to simply erase that obstacle for a time. The only real limit is that I'm currently only able to sustain three at once.

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is not the same as your example and is in fact very losely defined, exactly because there's no real limitations on what "a minor caveat" is exactly for example, or "some of the usual limits"

 

[Silverking]

...I just realized a bit of an ethical dilemma we may have to consider (particularly since we have chosen the Good route with [Shine] and it may be unwise to ding that unnecessarily).

On the one hand, multiple sources (mostly OOC but some IC) have hinted that Lilly's Boundless Ethos is a game-changer on an international level, and potentially the path to not just surviving the apocalypse, but making a better society overall. But she needs time and resources to grow, which makes it only logical to gather whatever allies and resources she can and move to safer pastures. Every bit of power that she gets means a better chance of keeping her family and allies safe, which I suspect will lead to a Legendary feedback loop and lead her closer to a point where she's able to help more and more people, and eventually the world. Her own Foundational knowledge (and possibly the "ignorance is bliss" bonus) will most likely give her far more power, and far more options on how to proceed.

On the other hand, Harmuph is a good town that keeps having bad things happen to it. 1,000 people got ripped to sheds by wolves, and 30-odd Watchmen just became collateral damage in a spirit fight. Neither of these things is Lilly's fault, but that doesn't change the fact that the town's not really at its best right now. Captain Martin's interlude made it very clear that Dungeon Boons are intended to be distributed throughout the Watch as an investment towards its continued safety. But now the plan is to distribute this all to Lilly, who will be leaving town soon, along with the veteran Captain and the town's foremost Diviner. If another crises comes up, the town will have fewer resources available to handle it, and there's a non-zero chance that the Apocalypse will come to Harmuph before Lilly ever returns.

So, in light of all of this, can Lilly morally justify taking the entirety of the Dungeon boons for herself if given the opportunity?

 

[Faraway-R]

I am actually unsure if Lilly would be eligible for the Dungeon Boons in the first place.

To begin with, the primary premise that Martin's plan hinges on, is that Lilly's being unaware of the possibility of gains, would further increase her gains. I believe that a girl with a [Towering Edifice to Heaven] Foundational Ethos in her soul can't possibly be considered unaware. Furthermore, this may also inadvertently label her as invalid target for other Foundational Ethae...

Otherwise, I am now imagining two neighboring Dungeons going into open war with each other with their creations, while also boosting each other more and more with every victory the other one makes. What a ridiculous image.

Secondly, with [TEtH] in play, you could argue the big benefits from dungeon diving will be due to influx of gravitas rather than from any nebulous Boons.

Thirdly, I don't trust the [Rapid Iterator], not even a little bit. It's a spiteful hateful petty thing - and you only need to look at what it'd done to Lilly's father by hijacking the Essence link Lilly had to him, when there was no actual tactical or strategic goal fulfilled by it. I'd very much rather see Lilly stripmine it to bedrock and beyond for Gravitas, than pick any of its probably-poisoned gifts.

 

[Razzocnor]

It is certainly true that we don't know if Dungeon boons will work the same way with Lilly having a Foundational Ethos. I'd guess that they're one of the intended uses for Major Relations Links (probably the standard version of Perfect Seedling)... and we have no idea if they'll work conventionally with Lilly's Boundless Ethos. Hitting the Dungeon certainly will be a good idea anyway, though we may want to be cautious that it looks like it might have some kind of Maw infection, if the pointless cruelty and 'eat everything' wolves are anything to go by. So we'll want to be ready to purge any Maw nastiness we might catch from it.
If we're lucky and good, we might be able to purge Maw corruption from [Rapid Iterator], get it to go back to standard behavior, or maybe even assert dominance or something and end up in charge of it. More likely we might have to destroy the thing so that it doesn't go berserk again or become fully corrupted. Or maybe I'm wrong, this is just how Dungeons work, and we end up with boons with no problem. We really don't know until we go.
Gravitas rewards should be high no matter what, though, which means its worth going regardless... unless we think we might actually permanently die in there.

 

[sheep-dodger]

To begin with, the primary premise that Martin's plan hinges on, is that Lilly's being unaware of the possibility of gains, would further increase her gains.

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yeah, Martin is working with a very limited knowledge of Lilly's situation, I doubt we'd be eligible for "first timer" bonuses.

 

[Storyteller]

yeah, Martin is working with a very limited knowledge of Lilly's situation, I doubt we'd be eligible for "first timer" bonuses.

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Essentially the only way anyone is getting a first timer bonus is if Myah has a repeat of the phenomena of Lilly getting a small percentage of Gravitas from the Guard's wolf kills for support role action.

...I just realized a bit of an ethical dilemma we may have to consider (particularly since we have chosen the Good route with [Shine] and it may be unwise to ding that unnecessarily).

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I do think in this particular scenario we'll have the ethical dilemma only after the whole absorb everything happens or right at the start of the loot dispersal process. This is OOC information - and not information seemingly well fit for the {Ladder} to warn Lilly about. Especially given that one of the problems Lilly has with it is it taking the easiest way. Hence why she was talking with Evie about changing it so it wouldn't give her stunningly manipulative tactics such as taking over Myah's father's role as a domineering controlling figure. And Evie who might know of the Dungeon thing is a bit busy trying to not die and is liable to be doing that for awhile. When Martin wants to push this quickly. The whole idea Captain Martin has is based on the (false) notion that Lilly will not trigger the "is gaming the system" by being unknowing of the whole boon thing. The fact that the integrated dungeon likely is going to trigger that flag is important for grinding purposes.

It however does absolutely nothing to allow Lilly, or us IC, to prevent Captain Martin from managing to manipulate Lilly into that circumstance. And he's very specifically not going to be informing her of such details because he thinks she'll get that boon bonus if she's ignorant.

It's like someone exchanging a prop gun on an actor for a real gun without informing the actor. Yes the actor pulled the trigger - but he's not the person who murdered the victim really.

 

[Edifier]

If anything that messes with the power rewarding, or enhances it, will be Lilly's Domain and dungeon powers. Will Edifice work together with Iterator, or will they conflict?
Conquering the dungeon unknowing feels like Legend magic imo.

So, in light of all of this, can Lilly morally justify taking the entirety of the Dungeon boons for herself if given the opportunity?

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Yes, she herself said in the chapter:

Once upon a time, you did not care all that much for power. Take or leave it, you would not have minded. But Power is influence, the ability to help those you love, stop those who would hurt them. You understand now that there is never such a thing as too much power; you never know when a larger threat will show up at your doorstep. If you'd been faster, stronger, smarter… you might have stopped Valerie in time.

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She sees the value in taking power for herself, especially as she is growing she can buff others, exponentially increasing the power everyone has access to. And equally, ensure everyone's safety.

On a separate note. The 5k xp Evie didn't scoop up. I think the dungeon got it. It may be more dangerous than ever now.

But you know. Saving the town, as in taking it with you, would need what I believe would be a liberal and active use of [Shine], tho it may as well count under the harm prevention philosophy. Yet I'm pretty sure most of you would rather the town and its people die than mind control to save their lives.

 

[darknessworld]

She sees the value in taking power for herself, especially as she is growing she can buff others, exponentially increasing the power everyone has access to. And equally, ensure everyone's safety.

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Actually, this only show a shift to her previous mentality due to what has just happened; it is mostly a reaction to a "shellshock" situation, even if she is still emotionally damped.
The decision on how we should move forward, with also possible shifts in personality, is something we will decide in the next votes.

 

[LancyIain]

If anything that messes with the power rewarding, or enhances it, will be Lilly's Domain and dungeon powers. Will Edifice work together with Iterator, or will they conflict?
Conquering the dungeon unknowing feels like Legend magic imo.

Yes, she herself said in the chapter:

She sees the value in taking power for herself, especially as she is growing she can buff others, exponentially increasing the power everyone has access to. And equally, ensure everyone's safety.

On a separate note. The 5k xp Evie didn't scoop up. I think the dungeon got it. It may be more dangerous than ever now.

But you know. Saving the town, as in taking it with you, would need what I believe would be a liberal and active use of [Shine], tho it may as well count under the harm prevention philosophy. Yet I'm pretty sure most of you would rather the town and its people die than mind control to save their lives.

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I'm not sure I entirely agree. Believing there's no such thing as too much power is not the same as thinking that you should take every bit of power and deny it to allies. She would definitely take the power, but I'm not convinced that she would deliberately seek to prevent others growing alongside her, at least not if she doesn't distrust them.

Regarding bonus power, I'm not sure Martin is entirely wrong. Lilly has Towering Edifice to Heaven as part of her, but does she actually know that it's a dungeon? Or that dungeons such as Rapid Iterator can turbocharge ethea? If she doesn't know either, would the usual rules apply? Or would being part dungeon lead to weirdness (probably)? I don't think we know enough to be sure that he's wrong that Lilly would get a bigger boost from clearing the Iterator without having been told of the link.

 

[Kymecho]

But you know. Saving the town, as in taking it with you, would need what I believe would be a liberal and active use of [Shine], tho it may as well count under the harm prevention philosophy. Yet I'm pretty sure most of you would rather the town and its people die than mind control to save their lives.

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Before making big decisions concerning Harmuph, we need to consider factors like:

1) Other loyalties of the townspeople (to Lord Waters, Ministry of Lore, Truthseeker's Guild, etc.). Also, competing authorities such as the mayor of Harmuph. It is highly likely that anyone with authority would have at least basic knowledge of Flow.

2) Logistics. Would they have enough resources to survive? Is there enough transportation for everything needed to uproot an entire town of people?

2a) Feasibility. Even if [Shine] can overcome other loyalties/disbelief from the townspeople, it is almost a certainty that the population of Harmuph and its surroundings will be easier to scry and track than a smaller group of people on horseback. They would also move slower than a smaller group, and would be treated as a greater threat to Narisell than just writing things off as "oh, a lot of the Watch died, some probably deserted, and a few families moved after the wolf attack". The Captain, someone experienced with the wider kingdom and knowledgeable on other ones, just noted to himself that his current actions might succeed only because of the lack of attention being paid to Lilly and Harmuph right now.

3) Conflict with other goals. Will this improve the chances of Lilly beating Lord Waters, or rescuing Kaymie from Senus? Will this hurt the chances of finding Lilly's aunt Penelope later?

Before accusing people of being afraid to use mind control, please give these some attention first.

 

[Edifier]

2) Logistics. Would they have enough resources to survive? Is there enough transportation for everything needed to uproot an entire town of people?

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Lilly can use essence to feed people directly. Yet she noted that Petal can rapidly grow plants from the dream. Spread a bit of domain and create food. So food-wise logistics may not be an issue.

On point 3, I feel like it gives Lilly more resources. More people with unique ethos. There is also saving as many people as she can heavily syncs up with the [Shine] blurb, doing everything without compromise and succeeding anyhow. Tho, well, spinning plates and deciding to drop some. It's probably too much effort anyhow and not like the other ethos would benefit from having a following.

As for the other points. Loyalties. Spies. Outside attention. I suppose that's reason enough to not involve them.
The people in power will probably send some people from other towns to replace the watch anyhow. So the question of, "mind control to save them, or let them die," is disingenuous anyhow. Since those people are under the kingdoms and Lord Sebastian Waters protection. It's their responsibility to make sure the town stays on the map and its people protected.
Besides killing the dungeon will probably remove any local threats from the wilds. And it's not like Lilly can't teleport back to the town at her leisure - since her phylactery is the tree in the forest.

Something awesome about the tree is how massive it is, yet it's not seen from outside of the forest as far as I can tell.