Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)
- Thread starter Alexander89
- Start date
- Crossover
It's an interesting try, but ES and Aleph note that 5-dote Principles ought to be vanishingly rare, or else your character is going to be insane. For example, you've got it set up that Lelouch's friendly rivalry with Suzaku is just as important as his life, and that he would die before facing his father in combat.
I agree that he'd be willing to die before hurting Nunally, given how he abandons the battlefield at the mere mention of her being in danger, but if you're gonna shift to that system, you can't just plug-n-play, you've got to change the strength of the feelings as well as their nature.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Still not as bad as Rihaku's Ulyssian Quest(s).
But yeah, aside from Essence for reasons stated above, we are racking up those trait points. And it will get only better/worse training time -wise, as Kaguya now has Verdant Emptiness Endowment, which means that we can now get Attributes trained in an instant instead of a month.
Wasn't the VEE line changed for this quest?
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
Don't use Rihaku quests as a sane measure of power level ever.
I think you're not quite grokking what the various levels of intimacies mean under the proposed switch. From the google doc for the rules hack:
A Principle rated at 5 under this system is equivalent to the basic survival instinct. Canon Lelouch at the very end of R2 likely had a 5-dot Principle along the lines of "I must see the Zero Requiem through to the end." His intimacy to Nunnally might have hit 5 by the end as well, but certainly at this point in canon it's 4 at the highest, along with investigating his mother's death and 'I will obliterate brittania'. I would argue that he has no 5-dot principles at this point. 5-dot principles are so overridingly important that not being able to pursue them is equivalent to dying as far as the character is concerned. Someone with a 4-dot principle of love for his wife probably loves her more than you or I have ever loved another human that didn't birth us.
Actually, even halfway through R2 I'm not entirely convinced Nunally's intimacy would be level 5. Sure, when Rolo saves him he says he doesn't have a reason to live anymore, but you can chalk that up to depression from losing a very significant level 4, and his subsequent recovery can be seen as getting revenge on his father moving up to take its place (and the beginnings of the zero requiem).
Fake edit: partially ninja'd by Alexander
For example, at this point in the story we're still fairly close to Lelouch's canon motivations, so I'd say that none of those should be 5-dot intimacies. The nunally, brittannia, charles, and mother's death intimacies would be at 4 tops, and most of the rest of those should be knocked down a notch.
You're kind of missing the point. With Exalted being as lethal as it is, hardened devil-body gives us what, 4 HLs? The number of attacks that don't instantly kill us but which do put us into the devil-body health levels is going to be a very small subset. Devil-Body is great if we're going to be a soak monster, but all the XP we'd need to spend buying up stats for that would be better spent elsewhere. Basically, the devil-body charm buys us one round, tops, and honestly we could pick up a mote pool expander somewhere that would let us use our perfect defense an additional time and be just as well off, with extra flexibility besides.
See above, from a purely optimization standpoint, we'd be better served picking up a surprise negator to hedge against ambushes, and using devil-body to help us survive long enough to run is counterintuitive since wound penalties would keep us from doing that anyway.
- Location
- That light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
That quest is also has some good examples of "Hey, so that is why the Dragon-blooded followed the Sidereals into rebellion." do to said intimacies.
I still want to know what the Auger of Heaven does other than make the Maiden of Endings nervous.
overmind
Ruler of the Swarm
At ths point I don't think Lelouch interacts or sees Shirley in any romantic way, or even in any intimacy that could qualify for three dots. If anything, she would be more of a Friend/Acquaintance, and at two dots at most.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
*Checks* Doesn't look like it. So yeah, it only takes a scene for us to raise an Attribute or anything else falling under VEE. Just wait till she gets her hands on the follow up Charms...
Lathe of Heaven. The name is borrowed from the title a sci-fi book (and later two movies), with a plot about a man whose dreams shape the world, and about his psychiatrist who tries to exploit it for the Greater Good (with capital G's).
But back to this quest, I also made my reworked version of the Intimacy -list:
And wow, even before if Suzaku is moved down along with some others, his lower-rated Intimacies are full of positive ones, but then at 5-dot we have full of negative ones and one unhealthy obsession with his sister (and Suzaku in the original list). I know that he is messed up by his past, but looking things like this? Wow.
- Location
- Spain
@Alexander89 , these are way too high.
A 5 dot intimacy is something that is as important to you as your own life (Or more) Nunnally qualifies, and maybe his hate against Brittania/Charles, but Suzaku is surely a 4 dot one tops (And note that 4 dot is already the "True Love" and "lifelong nemesis" level.)
Meanwhile, Milly is more a 3 dot one (Good friends level)
Shirley intimacy is probably 2-dots. Erembour.... may be three dots, but note that inspiring a three dot intimacy in a single scene requires powerful magic.
Also, making a single 2-dot (Friends) intimacy for the student council is better than a bunch of 1-dot ones.
And finally, if we really want convert our intimacies to the Kerisgame system, we should divide our principles/relations more clearly. In this case, we would have a principle of hate against Brittania. Other principles could include our tendency to hamminess and interest in art, our pride and sense of royalty, our belief in defending justice, etc, with various levels of importance.
A 5 dot intimacy is something that is as important to you as your own life (Or more) Nunnally qualifies, and maybe his hate against Brittania/Charles, but Suzaku is surely a 4 dot one tops (And note that 4 dot is already the "True Love" and "lifelong nemesis" level.)
Meanwhile, Milly is more a 3 dot one (Good friends level)
Shirley intimacy is probably 2-dots. Erembour.... may be three dots, but note that inspiring a three dot intimacy in a single scene requires powerful magic.
Also, making a single 2-dot (Friends) intimacy for the student council is better than a bunch of 1-dot ones.
And finally, if we really want convert our intimacies to the Kerisgame system, we should divide our principles/relations more clearly. In this case, we would have a principle of hate against Brittania. Other principles could include our tendency to hamminess and interest in art, our pride and sense of royalty, our belief in defending justice, etc, with various levels of importance.
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Ok then, seeing as I hadn't seen the system I couldn't exactly judge what the levels should be. I was simply speaking from the point of there should be five levels instead of the three that Alexander was proposing at the time.
That said, Nunally is most definitely five dots and you're insane for even thinking she isn't. Lelouch can't even bring himself to lie to her, for crying out loud - he would have blown his cover to Suzaku in R2 had Rolo not frozen Suzaku's perception of time if Lelouch could bring himself to lie to her. He's got no problem lying to literally everyone else. During childhood he carries her up huge numbers stairs even with his frail constitution because he doesn't trust anyone else to do it. When she rejected him as Zero for Suzaku who had betrayed him it devastated him to the point where he almost gave up on everything, nearly turning to Refrain so he could go back to happy times. When he thought she was dead he lost the will to live for a time, until he figured he could at least get revenge and trap both himself and the Emperor in the World of C for eternity.
If Nunnally had died before now Lelouch wouldn't want to make a gentle world, he'd probably just want to burn it the fuck down, or he wouldn't really care enough to try to overthrow Britannia. Lelouch definitely values her more than his own life.
"...you're insane for even thinking she isn't"? Come on man, disagree with me all you want but take it down a notch.
That said, Nunally might be at 5, and I even allowed for that in my post above, but I'd argue that him having several intimacies at 4 or less model it just as well, if not better. The scene where Suzaku corners him on the roof isn't literally a choice between lying to Nunally or dying, and so it doesn't serve as evidence that Nunally's at 5. It was lie or potentially be captured, but Lelouch has first hand experience with the fact that it likely wouldn't end with him being dead. Carrying her around is something you could justify with something as weak as a two or three level intimacy, so that's not gonna work for you either. At the beginning of the series, it's a level 3 or 4, and as Lelouch continues to stain his hands with blood from atrocity after atrocity using that intimacy as a justification, it strengthens over the course of the series. It likely did hit rank 5 strength right at the part where they were attacking the government bureau in R2. So, he thinks she dies and genuinely loses the will to live for about an episode and a half (like, a day in-universe?) and then after Rolo saves him he decides to take his vengeance, and then the Zero Requiem takes its place as his level 5 intimacy.
At this point? None of that applies.
Edit: And now that I think about it, even him going into C's world after charles at that point is just a more productive suicide to Lelouch. Isn't that the part where he bombs the entrance, fully intending to trap himself in there with Charles forever?
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@Alexander89
I think Euphie should be a one or two dot Intimacy.
Also, agree with Enjou that Nunnally being a 4 dot intimacy is a 'minimum' with 5 dots is quite possible.
I think Euphie should be a one or two dot Intimacy.
Also, agree with Enjou that Nunnally being a 4 dot intimacy is a 'minimum' with 5 dots is quite possible.
Alexander89
Pet the pretty kitty? Y/N
- Location
- Italy
Play nice people. No need to heating spirits.
Oh, I found this:
Skulking Shadow Shintai (Written by EarthScorpion)
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple (Speed 7, DV-2)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Form-Type
Duration: One scene
Prerequisites: Loom Snarling Deception, Bloodless Murk Evasion
In the dark places of the catacombs of Malfeas lurks the Ultimate Darkness, hidden away from the prideful gaze of Ligier. Those who think that they need only watch for the Ebon Dragon do not think to see what might be hidden right behind them. Upon activating this Charm, the Infernal becomes a shadow of what she once was, flesh shedding the temporary falsehood of solidity. She is rendered a featureless, tar-like mass of faintly translucent darkness; amorphous and somehow not quite of this world.
* Within his uttermost darkness, the Dragon is safe. Only harmful effects enhanced or created by Essence, or which are sources of light, have enough metaphysical potency to affect her, inflicting wounds in the form of disintegrated oozing sections of living shadow. Mundane weapons pass harmlessly through the winds of the Infernal's form, mundane acid may not burn her, mundane poison or disease have no effect, and so on. She is vulnerable to fire, however - a sword dipped in burning oil or a lit torch can do what bare hands could not - and an Exalt with an anima at the 7-10 mote level or higher always counts as a source of light. Her own anima does not count as light for the purposes of this Charm.
* This tenebral form is spun of Essence, and not subject to the limitations of solid form. She has no weight, and may freely move through any obstacle or barrier Bloodless Murk Evasion could be used to bypass. She may dodge freely without regard for having physical room to do so, may not physically clinch or be clinched, and may not be subjected to Blockade Movement, except by sources of light. She is mutable, and may lie flat against the ground to crawl in someone's shadow or stretch to cover a ceiling. She may still act normally despite this ephemeral form, as in the exact instant that the Infernal chooses to act, her shadow body takes on rough humanoid semblance to perform that action and exerts force as though solid.
* The shadow is left by all things and none. The Infernal's identity is impossible to determine. Should this effect be contested by other magic, the Infernal receives [Essence] bonus successes to contest it. In addition, she may always attempt to enter Stealth, regardless of any cover or lack thereof. If she is killed while in the form of the Skulking Shadow, she melts away in even the least light, leaving no corpse.
* The mind rebels to see a shadow without a light. While the Infernal is under the effects of this Charm, she enjoys the benefits of the Solar Stealth Charm Easily Overlooked Presence Method. This effect fails if fully illuminated, though stunting can allow the character to find dark places - such as the shadow of a target, or under the bed.
*The Skulking Shadow is a thing of the dark places of the world, and cannot bear to be illuminated; indeed, the world rejects it. The Infernal suffers a -2 internal penalty to all actions when fully illuminated, the painful light wracking her tenebral flesh. She is under a Compulsion to avoid direct illumination and retreat away from it. This Compulsion can be ignored for a scene by spending two willpower.
At Essence 4 this Charm automatically upgrades, its duration becoming Indefinite.
I like it, so I added it to the list here. Much more elegant if I can say so myself.
Nighty-night.
Probably so. I will change things appropriately tomorrow. If you want to propose modified lists, use a "[X] (insert name) Plan" format.
Oh, I found this:
Skulking Shadow Shintai (Written by EarthScorpion)
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple (Speed 7, DV-2)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Form-Type
Duration: One scene
Prerequisites: Loom Snarling Deception, Bloodless Murk Evasion
In the dark places of the catacombs of Malfeas lurks the Ultimate Darkness, hidden away from the prideful gaze of Ligier. Those who think that they need only watch for the Ebon Dragon do not think to see what might be hidden right behind them. Upon activating this Charm, the Infernal becomes a shadow of what she once was, flesh shedding the temporary falsehood of solidity. She is rendered a featureless, tar-like mass of faintly translucent darkness; amorphous and somehow not quite of this world.
* Within his uttermost darkness, the Dragon is safe. Only harmful effects enhanced or created by Essence, or which are sources of light, have enough metaphysical potency to affect her, inflicting wounds in the form of disintegrated oozing sections of living shadow. Mundane weapons pass harmlessly through the winds of the Infernal's form, mundane acid may not burn her, mundane poison or disease have no effect, and so on. She is vulnerable to fire, however - a sword dipped in burning oil or a lit torch can do what bare hands could not - and an Exalt with an anima at the 7-10 mote level or higher always counts as a source of light. Her own anima does not count as light for the purposes of this Charm.
* This tenebral form is spun of Essence, and not subject to the limitations of solid form. She has no weight, and may freely move through any obstacle or barrier Bloodless Murk Evasion could be used to bypass. She may dodge freely without regard for having physical room to do so, may not physically clinch or be clinched, and may not be subjected to Blockade Movement, except by sources of light. She is mutable, and may lie flat against the ground to crawl in someone's shadow or stretch to cover a ceiling. She may still act normally despite this ephemeral form, as in the exact instant that the Infernal chooses to act, her shadow body takes on rough humanoid semblance to perform that action and exerts force as though solid.
* The shadow is left by all things and none. The Infernal's identity is impossible to determine. Should this effect be contested by other magic, the Infernal receives [Essence] bonus successes to contest it. In addition, she may always attempt to enter Stealth, regardless of any cover or lack thereof. If she is killed while in the form of the Skulking Shadow, she melts away in even the least light, leaving no corpse.
* The mind rebels to see a shadow without a light. While the Infernal is under the effects of this Charm, she enjoys the benefits of the Solar Stealth Charm Easily Overlooked Presence Method. This effect fails if fully illuminated, though stunting can allow the character to find dark places - such as the shadow of a target, or under the bed.
*The Skulking Shadow is a thing of the dark places of the world, and cannot bear to be illuminated; indeed, the world rejects it. The Infernal suffers a -2 internal penalty to all actions when fully illuminated, the painful light wracking her tenebral flesh. She is under a Compulsion to avoid direct illumination and retreat away from it. This Compulsion can be ignored for a scene by spending two willpower.
At Essence 4 this Charm automatically upgrades, its duration becoming Indefinite.
I like it, so I added it to the list here. Much more elegant if I can say so myself.
Nighty-night.
Nope, I call it like I see it. Insane you are, I say! That said, don't take my hyperbole personally. It's not my fault you're wrong.
No, it would simply result in him being mindraped into forgetting her and a good deal of his identity again, which to him was a state that was pretty much being dead. And then it would likely be being made dead after C.C. was recaptured, or maybe being turned into Julius Kingsley again to serve as the puppet of a man he hates to further Britannia's ends. Remember that there are things worse than death that one can suffer.
Again, this is all crazy talk, or maybe you didn't watch the same show I did? Nunnally's happiness and comfort are literally the most important things to Lelouch. Nunnally is the reason he wants to create a more gentle world. You know what Lelouch's final thought was when he was about to die just before C.C. gave him his Geass? It was Nunally. It's a 5 and always has been. Nunnally being there was what kept Lelouch going for seven straight years.
The fact that the opportunities for drama with the Intimacy came later in the show doesn't mean it wasn't already there. I have absolutely no doubt that Lelouch would lay down his life for Nunnally at any point in the show if he deemed it necessary for her to survive.
Yeah, that's what I meant. He doesn't care about his life at that point, but if he's going to go down he might as well trap his father forever, even if that means he has to spend the next eternity or so with someone he despises.
No, my opinion is that saying it's a 4 dot Intimacy is insane. It's definitely a 5.
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I remember there being some talk about the VEE line being broken.
I think they said the first charm was fine, it was the upgrades that were problems.
Well, here's my perfectly reasonable and sane list to suggest.
[] Sane Intimacy Plan
These are very roughly ordered by importance from most to least, but there are some cases where they're roughly equal I think, especially in cases where the things are linked together.
Ok, reasoning.
1. Nunnally is the most important person to Lelouch, period, including himself. 5 dots, bar none.
2. Among Lelouch's four dot Intimacies, Suzaku is the only positive one.
3. Milly is 3-dots. She's recently moved up from 2-dots after becoming his ally, and proving herself to be a really good friend.
4. Sayoko probably started the quest as a low 2-dot, but probably became very close to 3-dot due to recent interactions. The GM may disagree though, and I'd be fine with her being a 3-dot. It'll happen with a few more interactions anyways.
5. Shirley and Rivalz are two dots. Lelouch knows them and interacts with them frequently. That said, meaningful interaction hasn't really occurred at this point.
6. Chess is a 3 because it's Lelouch's favorite game and he views the world more than a bit as a strategy game.
7. It was mentioned that making an Intimacy of 3 in a single scene from scratch has to involve magic. Well, I figure Erembour is extremely magical and the Ebon Dragon may have introduced the two on purpose for some nefarious reason.
8. Oramus should get an Intimacy, but only 2-dot at this point I think. Lelouch is very grateful to him, and he's actually taken the time to pray to him even though he didn't have to.
9. Kaguya is a 2 dot due to her obviously supporting Lelouch and having impressed him. That said, she's still fairly low due to only interacting with him for a few days so far. The rest of the Coven gets one dot each, as does C.C. Seyrun also gets an Intimacy, as Lelouch seems to get along with him quite well.
10. Nina gets a one dot Intimacy but is the lowest among those, mainly because Lelouch probably interacts with her the least but he has still done so enough to warrant an Intimacy.
11. I considered giving the Black Knights a one dot intimacy of Useful Pawns, but even though they are useful pawns to Lelouch he could still afford to throw them away at this point. That said, I gave a dot to Kallen as she's really the only one who is of true value to him at this point, and he's been having more interactions with her both as Zero and Lelouch than any of the other members of the Black Knights. I also didn't give the Dark-Green Fangs an Intimacy because in spite of being useful Lelouch knows they aren't always reliable, what with having abandoned him when the Ebon Dragon showed up.
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I don't know enough about the Kerisgame Principles thing to really judge.
The GM explained it here:
Anything rated a 5 is equal to or more important than your very life. You will willingly throw your life away for these if necessary, full well knowing it's coming, without any hesitation. Anything rated this high is pretty much the center of your universe.
Anything rated a 4 is core to what motivates you, or someone who is really important to you. You'll take big risks for these things. You might be willing to die for them, but you'll probably have to think long and hard about it.
Anything rated a 3 is pretty important to you, but it's not the center of your universe. Most true friends go here. You might risk your life for these things, but you're very unlikely to walk into certain death for them.
Anything rated a 2 is kind of important, and you might risk things for them, but pretty much never your life.
Anything rated a 1 is something you care about more than average, but haven't really full invested yourself in.
Or at least that's my assessment.
Euphie and Cornelia have been out of contact for years, so I don't think he'd have one towards them. Clovis is merely an enemy to be manipulated at this point, and nothing more than a pawn of the Emperor - Lelouch probably doesn't care about him much outside of that.
True, but he does seem to have at least some fondness for Euphie, as she was his second favorite sister, and he was willing to reveal himself to her in canon, suggesting she may still be at least a 1 dot intimacy.
He was willing to do so after having some other contact with her after the years, and she social attacked him good at that point which probably re-established the Intimacy if it hadn't been already. At this point though I don't think it'd be an Intimacy he'd have. It'd be one he'd gain easily, though, once he meets her again.