Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Ok, so, interesting, and actually with a lot of implication. Spirit perspective about "owning time" is funny, though, in a serious debate / discussion, I would roll for Occult and explain that the expression deals primarily with Free WIll and the ability of mortals to choose how to act within the time they are inhabiting.

That the "though shalt not swim against the current of time" is a relatively new rule is also very intriguing. I doubt Bùshì Tùzǐ remembers the previous Age, so the rule change had to arise within this Age. Meaning that major rules (and "though shalt not swim against the current of time" deals with stuff that protects the universe) can change without the Age changing. Nice to know.

Grassroot arcane development is nice to see. Sure, by forging a city god, and raising a manse Molly will obsolete a lot of their arcane infrastructure, but it's still good that they have agency and can develop on their own.
That's not her point I think; it's a precision of language issue the same way spirits are picky about names. Your ability to do what you want has nothing to do with ownership of time as a spirit might count it.

Given how various natural forces are actually owned or embodied by big spirits it makes sense. The guy who runs gravity isn't just around and subject to it, they can make it do things for them.
 
IIRC, that was more like a very short range teleportation effect, which is quite different from the potion proposed here.
It was super weird and never addressed again; it didn't teleport so much as turn him and Susan in a couple of breezes and then back again after it ran out of power. If they'd been in an air tight space they wouldn't have made it out.

Not that that's a significant flaw most of the time, but it's a pretty big jump from his normal skills.

For the grapple thing, why not stick it to something closer to how the other canon alchemy stuff works? Have the potion make the drinker sweat a rapidly decomposing chemical that makes getting close enough to touch them so agonizing you need a willpower roll to do it. Like temporarily taking on the (significantly reduced) properties of that Australian suicide tree.

It comes with a built in downside in that it effects everyone but the user, so hopefully it'd be a tier 2-3 potion despite the utility.
 
From M20 Sorcerer
••• Not only can the alchemist now enhance their
targets beyond the normal capabilities of humans, but they can also grant low-level psychic abilities (see Chapter Two) for an hour at a time.
These psychic abilities begin at a single dot,
but every additional two successes provides an
additional dot, to a maximum of the alchemist's
Path rating
Needing just 9 success to create potions that can grant 4 dots of Psychoportation, you cannot prevent people from teleporting away from a grapple. So grapples become useless, and short ranged maneuvering in mass.
 
The relationship is twofold. Firstly in that the difficulty of soaking it corresponds to how dangerous it is to handle, and therefore to do anything with. Even if the reaction to make something is simple, doing it in a safe and useful way is an entirely different animal. Especially if you then need to store and deploy it.

That part is always going to be complicated, and is why I brought up meth as an example. It is also high school chemistry, and despite the awful effects it has the stuff isn't half as lethal as an actual weapon in its final form or its intermediate stages. People still blow themselves up making it and burn down the place they were doing it in. They also tend to have pretty shit quality control.

The second is in the difficulty of magically enhancing something on top of the above. You're talking about taking a complicated physical process to manage and adding additional components to it that involve novel research and experimentation. It's not like there's a book filled with recipes for enchanting VX or something.

Which means that you're going to inevitably have failures that involve uncontrolled magical interactions with murder gas while working through the design.

This is not impossible, but anyone who can do this properly isn't some chump and it's not something you just casually whip out. Consider for a moment how much effort relative to reward Sandra got out of the gas she used. Even if we hadn't stopped it almost any other use of the same resources would have killed more people.

Note that this is predicated on them actually trying something with the intent to kill or injure. Chemical weapons are hard to deploy, getting some idiot to mix bleach and ammonia in water balloons isn't going to do anything, and most simple solutions to that don't answer how to pin someone with mobility advantages and many other problems.

Anything like a dart or directed weapon has to actually make it past Molly's active defenses, so I'm discounting it here for the most part. Getting us to drink something also involves a lot of other prep work itself. Effort you could use on a bomb to greater effect.

They could do this, but it's a really inefficient and unreliable use of resources that's expensive to buy into. Which is why this sort of attack rarely ever happened in canon.


There's nothing obvious about Molly being somehow weak to poison, because without insight into her character sheet it's hard to tell if she's not as tanky against it as everything else on top of the other issues. As it happens, the reasons trying this on a Naagoloshi or Sidhe are a bad idea also apply here so the common sense of the setting is actually helpful for our opposition.

Edit:

Basically; you're doing the equivalent of saying "you can totally beat vampires in a fist fight with 1 dot of a Qiao. Just make sure you spend 30 years intensely training dex, strength, and brawl first, and pick the perfect path for your build with a few more years of free time to integrate it into your fighting style. Also make sure to keep a Batman-esque utility belt of mundane tools"

The dot of alchemy/brawl is there, but you're misrepresenting the details of everything else.
Okay I'm not going to engage with that obvious fucking bullshit at the bottom there but we can't depend on anyone who uses poison to be hypnotized fucking college students. We cannot depend on our opponents being incompetent and not realizing you can just not use aerosol poisons or never poisoning their weapons.

The difficulty to soak poison has nothing to do with how difficult it is to produce or handle. Human beings are hilariously fragile to most chemical combinations, substances that are 99% identical to things that are consumable are poisonous to humans next you're going to say producing methanol is somehow difficult despite the fact you can do it on fucking accident making alcohol and guess what that shit'll kill somebody just as fast as drinking bleach will.

Finally that is not what I'm saying we have proven ourselves Time After Time at this point we've engaged in combat with high Akuma, Outsider minions, Naagoloshi sorcerers, a literal deity, a high elder or lesser lord of outer Night level red vampire and to top it off a literal Walker from the outside.

Someone's going to try something sneaky because obviously the fucking forward route is not working. You're also completely ignoring the fact of what I said. Most of our enemies are infiltrators, saboteurs and seducers by trade or by Nature whether you're talking about Nemesis or the Fallen Angels or any of the white or red Court.

If they don't think they can take us in a fight or by seduction then they're going to use poison because literally that is what you do if you're trying to kill somebody I really don't know how to say it any other way. None of them from Nemesis all the way to the red Court are going to want to use direct overt cover blowing methods such as mass combat and fucking bombardment before trying poison.
 
Okay I'm not going to engage with that obvious fucking bullshit at the bottom there but we can't depend on anyone who uses poison to be hypnotized fucking college students. We cannot depend on our opponents being incompetent and not realizing you can just not use aerosol poisons or never poisoning their weapons.

The difficulty to soak poison has nothing to do with how difficult it is to produce or handle. Human beings are hilariously fragile to most chemical combinations, substances that are 99% identical to things that are consumable are poisonous to humans next you're going to say producing methanol is somehow difficult despite the fact you can do it on fucking accident making alcohol and guess what that shit'll kill somebody just as fast as drinking bleach will.
In the context of chemical weapons the more dangerous it is to handle the more dangerous it is to produce. Being more dangerous means that doing it properly is more complicated, because even if you don't care about your workers' health because everyone dying slows down work.

Then you need to package and deploy it, which is another can of worms.

Again, we're speaking in the context of things you're deliberately making to kill everything around them and in particular gas weapons because that's the one you choose to advance and defend. The claim that enhanced chemical weapons are easy enough to make and use that any old idiot can do so is ludicrous on its face.

Funny how Sandra only became incompetent after we won here, she seemed pretty on the ball to me and put a lot of effort into that VX. Which should tell you about the difficulties involved here and how the agents of a major enemy would go about doing business in this area.

Poisoned weapons aren't a serious concern because they're subject to active defense and soak before they have to deal with being resisted on an individual basis. They can hurt, but it's not some obvious weakness everyone immediately exploits any time someone demonstrates that they're tough.


inally that is not what I'm saying we have proven ourselves Time After Time at this point we've engaged in combat with high Akuma, Outsider minions, Naagoloshi sorcerers, a literal deity, a high elder or lesser lord of outer Night level red vampire and to top it off a literal Walker from the outside.

Someone's going to try something sneaky because obviously the fucking forward route is not working. You're also completely ignoring the fact of what I said. Most of our enemies are infiltrators, saboteurs and seducers by trade or by Nature whether you're talking about Nemesis or the Fallen Angels or any of the white or red Court.
Yeah? Still doesn't support your point because you're wrong by the numbers.

I'm not ignoring anything. You've been claiming that a 1 dot alchemist could whip up magical super chlorine and toss it at us whenever nemesis wants to try it, I've been pointing out that this is inherently much more difficult and far less rewarding an angle of approach than you're describing for a number of fairly clear factors, some of which are:

1) Making chemicals that are dangerous to touch or breath takes skill to do safely.

2) Packaging them for delivery is also hard, and gets harder the more effective they are.

3) Directed weapons need to work through our entire defensive scheme to matter, AoE effects of this type suffer from a number of deployment issues and are difficult to keep someone pinned in if you struggle to confront them in the first place.

4) If they have the level of access needed to slip Molly tainted food there are significantly better uses for it than this.

Among others.

This is not to say it isn't a danger, but it isn't some almighty hack to killing exalts and trying isn't cheap or easy. If you don't want me to engage with that part of your argument maybe don't insist on it.

Shooting Molly with 5-10 drone strikes simultaneously would be way easier and dramatically more effective if they're going this far. Poison isn't some default thing you just go to when you're out of ideas, and I highly doubt we're at the end of their bag of tricks anyway.

The edit to my post isn't bullshit and wasn't even that much of an exaggeration. It's highlighting the implications of what you said here:
I'm sorry but it literally is exactly something an idiot with A dot in Alchemy can make. Making supernaturally potent versions of existing chemicals is what Alchemy 1 does.
Anyone with Alchemy one is capable of making poisons that could straight up overwhelm us at the moment if it was airborne. Just one of tunnel with alchemical chlorine gas or something similar and we take possibly the full brunt of seven aggravated damage in one round and if it's super effective or something dictates it procs twice we could take even more.
This also ignores the fact that in a connected world people can just buy a vast majority of these chemicals off the shelves anyone with any level of license or just the right amount of money could just buy industrial chemicals Flat Out. The level of alchemy necessary to turn chlorine gas into alchemical chlorine gas is 1. Observing proper lab safety would prevent the majority of people from taking damage from alchemical poisons brewed.

This is exactly the same as the example I outlined in every way that matters.

If we first make the assumption that the alchemist in question is an expert at making and delivering chemical weapons and knows exactly how magic should interact with that process 1 dot of alchemy is enough to make this happen.

But it's worth considering what exactly you're asking for.
 
That had a mechanism, it turned him to mist I think, just general 'cannot be held' is too conceptual.
In general don't try for perfect effects with Alchemy or really any mortal magic. Still that escape potion is fairly good. Not really for Molly, but other people who can't casually run a football field in the time it takes to say hello.
 
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We can work out the details I just want escape and healing potions of some sort. @Cavalar The escape and healing potions won't work as presented. You'll need to replace them with weaker variants as indicated in thread.

[X] Plan healing Aggravated Damage and Escape Artist
 
In the context of chemical weapons the more dangerous it is to handle the more dangerous it is to produce. Being more dangerous means that doing it properly is more complicated, because even if you don't care about your workers' health because everyone dying slows down work.

Then you need to package and deploy it, which is another can of worms.

Again, we're speaking in the context of things you're deliberately making to kill everything around them and in particular gas weapons because that's the one you choose to advance and defend. The claim that enhanced chemical weapons are easy enough to make and use that any old idiot can do so is ludicrous on its face.

Funny how Sandra only became incompetent after we won here, she seemed pretty on the ball to me and put a lot of effort into that VX. Which should tell you about the difficulties involved here and how the agents of a major enemy would go about doing business in this area.

Poisoned weapons aren't a serious concern because they're subject to active defense and soak before they have to deal with being resisted on an individual basis. They can hurt, but it's not some obvious weakness everyone immediately exploits any time someone demonstrates that they're tough.



Yeah? Still doesn't support your point because you're wrong by the numbers.

I'm not ignoring anything. You've been claiming that a 1 dot alchemist could whip up magical super chlorine and toss it at us whenever nemesis wants to try it, I've been pointing out that this is inherently much more difficult and far less rewarding an angle of approach than you're describing for a number of fairly clear factors, some of which are:

1) Making chemicals that are dangerous to touch or breath takes skill to do safely.

2) Packaging them for delivery is also hard, and gets harder the more effective they are.

3) Directed weapons need to work through our entire defensive scheme to matter, AoE effects of this type suffer from a number of deployment issues and are difficult to keep someone pinned in if you struggle to confront them in the first place.

4) If they have the level of access needed to slip Molly tainted food there are significantly better uses for it than this.

Among others.

This is not to say it isn't a danger, but it isn't some almighty hack to killing exalts and trying isn't cheap or easy. If you don't want me to engage with that part of your argument maybe don't insist on it.

Shooting Molly with 5-10 drone strikes simultaneously would be way easier and dramatically more effective if they're going this far. Poison isn't some default thing you just go to when you're out of ideas, and I highly doubt we're at the end of their bag of tricks anyway.

The edit to my post isn't bullshit and wasn't even that much of an exaggeration. It's highlighting the implications of what you said here:




This is exactly the same as the example I outlined in every way that matters.

If we first make the assumption that the alchemist in question is an expert at making and delivering chemical weapons and knows exactly how magic should interact with that process 1 dot of alchemy is enough to make this happen.

But it's worth considering what exactly you're asking for.
Okay one on contact poisons just exist in real life and in Dresden files there's just an outsider material called mordite that just is poisonous so much so that it causes death on contact.

Sandra wasn't the incompetent there the methodology she chose for going for a maximum fatality gas was the problem. Her setup that she got up to disperse that gas was really impressive and well-planned but it needed a specific trigger and generally was kind of complicated.

If she had chosen just something easier and bought canisters to hold just chlorine gas and observe proper chemical procedure while producing chlorine gas she could have harmed hundreds or possibly thousands of people and killed tens or hundreds of them but she wanted an actually fucking insanely deadly weapon and that comes with cost.

There's the thing actually now that I'm thinking about it her plan in the entire time relies on maximum fatalities so the presence of Highly deadly chemical weapons is the point. She could have gone for something easier to produce and more effectively spread but she was going for everyone in this club needs to be murdered not I need to bomb the strip and hurt a couple hundred people but only kill a couple dozen.

I'm also not going to quibble about the fact of proper lab procedure just exists I don't know if you ever went to high school chemistry but they taught you how to safely handle chemicals at least mine did, be in place with high ventilation, keep your equipment clean and clear, understand what chemicals you're working with and how they interact.

Alchemy Means adding another element that you have to study and understand but it doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the vast majority of things that are dangerous to humans are not things that are difficult to find or produce nor do they produce an aroelized or dangerous environment if you are producing them never mind if you are following proper procedure while doing so.

Poison in general I consider it considerably more stealthy than trying to gather 10 or dozens of men to fight generally never mind getting any more than that. I also consider it infinitely more stealthy than trying to scramble drone Fighters. I'm going to be real here I feel like the opponents that we have specialize in stealth and infiltrator activities rather than we're going to bombard this place activities. Nemesis is a body riding stealth machine, the Fallen also body riding stealth machines in coins they differ from Nemesis in so much as they can directly interfere or add their puissance to endeavors and have a say in what their carriers do directly rather than waiting for a proper moment to strike.

Both of these strategies rely on the people that they're riding around in either not being known for that or being nearly unassailable. Archalone and that one Brute denarian rely on that strategy but considering how little we hear about the others they seem to rely on the former.

In the end I think the cost to opportunity cost of just attempting the poisoning in any sense is infinitely lower than attempting an open shot at combat and has way fewer chances (they don't know we have the crown of eyes) to be traced back to them either.

Immediately when you involve drones or groups of men or women to fight there's Paper Trails, money has to be moved, things had to be organized, cars had to be rented, guns have to be bought it's a whole thing then very easily leads somewhere it may not lead directly to the fallen on Nemesis possessed or whoever in general but there's a trail and if people are aware of who these people are associated with there's a one or two jump necessary and once you're that far up the chain and divination magic is a thing maybe you shouldn't let people get that far up the chain.

I did not claim that someone could just whip up super chlorine and throw it at us whatever they want to. I claimed we have a specific vulnerability to poison and nothing that you have said has actually countered that point at all you said we have not encountered poison which is not true Sandra's minions attempted to disperse an insanely powerful one and that the will of kakuri breathed a cloud of poison on us and it did aggravated damage.

It really seems like you have a problem more with Alchemy 1 being capable of doing that rather than my point but that's neither here nor there. I just assume that someone who wants to do it and has proper backing isn't incompetent or is it going to gas themselves by not following fucking basic safety procedure. You really don't need to be a chemical weapons expert to not gas yourself making dangerous chemicals and knowing how to package them chemists just exist.

So I will reiterate my point we are uniquely vulnerable to poison. I would like to not be hence the marble. I believe none of our opponents are above using poison and are in fact well disposed in the practice of using it.
 
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We cannot depend on our opponents being incompetent and not realizing you can just not use aerosol poisons or never poisoning their weapons.
The extremely public fight that we just did involved is going into a room where people were throwing around nerve gas. Enemies researching our weaknesses are not going to conclude that poison is one of them.
 
The extremely public fight that we just did involved is going into a room where people were throwing around nerve gas. Enemies researching our weaknesses are not going to conclude that poison is one of them.
That is not actually the case they were throwing around grenades in a space that had nerve gas in it and we specifically disabled / made odd devices out of the grenades before they did any real damage. Then contained and then called people to dispose of the nerve gas before any of it was actually released.
 
I don't have the time and sources to rework the potions, so I am open to anyone making a plan with the right mechanics.

Or you can just vote for Yog's plans without healing receipts and hope Tiffany will carry the party.
 
I don't have the time and sources to rework the potions, so I am open to anyone making a plan with the right mechanics.

Or you can just vote for Yog's plans without healing receipts and hope Tiffany will carry the party.
Okay let me help you the healing potion not going to fly that's more powerful than a 4 dot charm
Digesting the Great Beast (••••)
Speaking a secret name lost to the grinding passage of the ages into the quiet vaults of her innermost self, the Infernal summons a single demon maggot into the chambers of her heart. There the maggot vomits forth a scrap of immortal, undying flesh chewed from the corpse of the Great Beast, which briefly lends its vitality to the Exalt.
System: Reflexively spend 1 Essence and roll
Stamina + Occult against difficulty 7. The Infernal automatically heals two levels of bashing damage or one level of lethal damage at the beginning of each turn for a number of turns equal to the successes rolled. Giving up three turns of healing allows her to heal a level of aggravated damage, instead.
So here are two options you can either make the potion something similar to a spirit healing potion that mends metaphysical damage aggravated does but still leaves the actual damage in system terms downgrades aggravated to lethal. That is still a powerful potion that has a immediate and sharp benefit of you can apply potions on top of that to help you. This immediately drops a four-dot potion from being near the epitome of exalted power to something that is vastly helpful but is still paying for the opportunity to pay more to actually heal yourself.

The other option is some reduction in the time to heal aggravated damage.

For the Escape potion just designate some method by which it works. Does it turn us into mist do we have lava pouring out of our skin which makes holding us a awful proposition just have some methodology by which holding us becomes not a good thing to do or a non possible thing to do and specify a duration a turn per success or something similar.
 
@DragonParadox , trying to make healing potion work - would a potion that converts aggravated damage to lethal damage work?

For escape potion - a potion that grants ability to teleport for a scene. Teleportation is limited to no more than 12 meters, but it doesn't require a roll or a willpower point.
 
@DragonParadox , trying to make healing potion work - would a potion that converts aggravated damage to lethal damage work?

For escape potion - a potion that grants ability to teleport for a scene. Teleportation is limited to no more than 12 meters, but it doesn't require a roll or a willpower point.
  1. Yeah that is more workable, a potion that converts up to successes in crafting from agg damage to lethal
  2. A scene is quite long, that would be hundreds of teleports, lets say up to three uses and if they are not used the effects fade after one scene.
 
  1. Yeah that is more workable, a potion that converts up to successes in crafting from agg damage to lethal
  2. A scene is quite long, that would be hundreds of teleports, lets say up to three uses and if they are not used the effects fade after one scene.
1. Ok, sure.
2. Ok. Though, I'll point out that this is canon (Sorcerer: Paths of Power) Alchemy 3 power level:
Alloys can be made supernaturally
strong, people can be made inhumanly quick, and even
low-level psychic powers (fewer dots than they have in
Alchemy) can be granted (for less than an hour).
Twelve meters per teleport is less than psychoportation 1, which reads as "The teleporter can appear 12 + Intelligence meters from where they started.". We should be able to grant psychoportation 4, which is "Very Long Jump: Exactly as Long Jump, though range is now 80 + (12 x Intelligence) meters.". Long jump has the "can be doubled by spending a full turn in concentration to prepare". So, I traded almost all range for "no roll needed and no willpower use", and the duration of "less than an hour" is about equal to one scene, I think?

Maybe 3 uses per crafting success?
 
1. Ok, sure.
2. Ok. Though, I'll point out that this is canon (Sorcerer: Paths of Power) Alchemy 3 power level:

Twelve meters per teleport is less than psychoportation 1, which reads as "The teleporter can appear 12 + Intelligence meters from where they started.". We should be able to grant psychoportation 4, which is "Very Long Jump: Exactly as Long Jump, though range is now 80 + (12 x Intelligence) meters.". Long jump has the "can be doubled by spending a full turn in concentration to prepare". So, I traded almost all range for "no roll needed and no willpower use", and the duration of "less than an hour" is about equal to one scene, I think?

Maybe 3 uses per crafting success?

Yeah that does work per canon, but if you make it like that it costs willpower. The limit of 3 is from all the magic being in the potion and requiring nothing of the drinker. If you guys want more teleports you can just make more doses.
 
Yeah that does work per canon, but if you make it like that it costs willpower. The limit of 3 is from all the magic being in the potion and requiring nothing of the drinker. If you guys want more teleports you can just make more doses.
Ok, sure.

So, for those voting for healing and escape potions, here's a possible combination of potions that fulfills your desires:
•••• A Healer's Chance. Converts one point of aggravated damage to lethal damage per success during crafting
•••• Emergency escape. Gives ability to teleport up to 12 meters in any direction within line of sight up to three times within one scene.

The first potion should be used with the healing potions we already have. Convert agg to lethal, then heal lethal.

I would like to note that Molly was never seriously inconvenienced in a fight, and basically steamrolled Dragon
 
Ok, sure.

So, for those voting for healing and escape potions, here's a possible combination of potions that fulfills your desires:
•••• A Healer's Chance. Converts one point of aggravated damage to lethal damage per success during crafting
•••• Emergency escape. Gives ability to teleport up to 12 meters in any direction within line of sight up to three times within one scene.

The first potion should be used with the healing potions we already have. Convert agg to lethal, then heal lethal.

I would like to note that Molly was never seriously inconvenienced in a fight, and basically steamrolled Dragon
Instead of 12 meters three times, could it instead allow one 36 meter teleportation?
 
Quick question what do you get out of a 36 meter teleportation that you wouldn't get out of a 12? Honestly asking because I don't actually know.

Edit: Other than the obvious of course.
12 meters might not be enough to even break line of sight. It could also be too short a distance to reach a critical destination in time. If each teleportation requires an action to use, but you need to go at least 30 meters and you only have a single action to do it, then you're out of luck.
 
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